Changing providers Rant

cubix

Cant believe that comreg still have nothing in place so you can do a dsl provider change over with out a break in service, what a useless shower you are. Rant over:rolleyes:

Cubix

Steffano2002

Indeed... That would make them usefull as opposed to useless!

dub45

There is such a process between Eircom resellers and people on here have often reported using it successfully. What sort of switch are you trying to do?

CuLT

Shortest rant ever

And there's a thing called a "broadband transfer form" that allows you to tranfer your broadband virtually seamlessly if it's between any of the eircom bitstream providers.

As long as you have half a clue and put a bit of planning/thought into it, there shouldn't be a problem.

Steffano2002

I think there should be something in place for switching between Eircom, BT, Magnet, ESAT, Digiweb, etc... Now that would be something!

CuLT

Steffano2002 wrote:

I think there should be something in place for switching between Eircom, BT, Magnet, ESAT, Digiweb, etc... Now that would be something!

BT and Esat are the same company. As far as I know only Magnet aren't reselling eircom's bitstream.

As I said, all the companies reselling eircom's wholesale bitstream product are capable of transferring virtually seamlessly (if you have a bit of cop).

Liam Byrne

It's gas......if a provider is reselling eircom's package, you can avail of an easy switch (coz it makes no difference to them) but if you want to use Magnet or Smart (with eircom losing out on the wholesale resale) you can look forward to losing BB until eircom eventually process your order, and you'll also probably have to change your phone number. :frust:

That's ComReg's idea of "competition" :rolleyes:

cubix

Looking to go the Magnet route. Just to add regarding Cult's comments
"As long as you have half a clue and put a bit of planning/thought into it, there shouldn't be a problem"

Thats the whole point I am trying to make, its not seemless unless your using an eircom reseller. And i dont think the onus should be on the customer to have a clue how the system works, it should be a case of ringing up and getting the service you are paying for with your tax yoyo's. How hard would it be for comreg to have some kind of a directive that on your change over day Eircom tech guy/Magnet tech guy are in the exchange. So at worst you would have an hours downtime instead of 7-15 days I am being told.

Cubix

CuLT

cubix wrote:

Looking to go the Magnet route. Just to add regarding Cult's comments
"As long as you have half a clue and put a bit of planning/thought into it, there shouldn't be a problem"

Thats the whole point I am trying to make, its not seemless unless your using an eircom reseller. And i dont think the onus should be on the customer to have a clue how the system works, it should be a case of ringing up and getting the service you are paying for with your tax yoyo's. How hard would it be for comreg to have some kind of a directive that on your change over day Eircom tech guy/Magnet tech guy are in the exchange. So at worst you would have an hours downtime instead of 7-15 days I am being told.

Cubix

Unfortunately telcos aren't all one big happy family, they are competitors, and if you can give me one solid reason why a company should go out of their way to make your transition to their competitor easy, then I'm all ears.

How hard would it be for comreg to have some kind of a directive that on your change over day Eircom tech guy/Magnet tech guy are in the exchange.

Why should companies do this though? Where's the benefit to them? Businesses undoubtedly pay good money to have this done. I'm not saying it's impossible, but honestly, half the people on boards.ie treat telcos like they're public services and not businesses in this to make money.

cubix

Your spot on Cult but I thought the whole point of having a regulator was to make them do things that they other wise would not do specially when it comes to eircom has they have the biggest share of the market and hence have more to lose

Cubix

Steffano2002

cubix wrote:

How hard would it be for comreg to have some kind of a directive that on your change over day Eircom tech guy/Magnet tech guy are in the exchange. So at worst you would have an hours downtime instead of 7-15 days I am being told.

Magnet don't even have engineers to go switch lines at the exchange. Eircom owns all the lines this Magnet relies on Eircom 100% to get the lines switched over. No wonder it takes a while...

Steffano2002

CuLT wrote:

Unfortunately telcos aren't all one big happy family, they are competitors, and if you can give me one solid reason why a company should go out of their way to make your transition to their competitor easy, then I'm all ears.

You want a solid reason? Ok... Here it is (or here's what it should be): "Because ComReg imposes it".

What we need in Ireland is a Communications Regulator. Oh, wait... Is that what ComReg stands for??? :eek: lol...

Liam Byrne

if you can give me one solid reason why a company should go out of their way to make your transition to their competitor easy, then I'm all ears.

In a proper competitive environment, we wouldn't have that problem; it wouldn't be within one operator's capability to impact so badly on another's ability to provide a service. So the above argument doesn't really apply. Likewise, in an ideal world, proper "competitors" wouldn't be acting as agents for eircom's wholesale product and therefore helping them make sales and more profits.

All things being equal, I'd agree with you, but while eircom can adversely affect the others to the extent that they currently can, there is no true "competition" and therefore there is no "competitor" in the context that you're talking about.

The mobile companies managed it - no change of phone number when switching networks and no reprinting advertising/business cards/van signage, etc, resulting in true competition and the choice is now the consumers. Why did this happen ? Because (a) they were told to and (b) there was no dominant player saying "screw you". The consumer chooses and the companies have to ensure that they have imaginative and differential offerings in order to gain and retain customers.

If eircom's offerings could cover the distances, were good enough and priced correctly, they'd have as much to gain from easy switching as anyone. The fact that they're so protective means that they know well they'd lose rather than gain, hence the inertia and interference.

CuLT

I believe the mobile comparison is inaccurate, mainly due to the vast physical difference between installing a mobile network and installing a landline network.
No physical connections need be made, no tech needs to fiddle around with cards and junctions to get a new mobile online.

Like-with-like comparisons (the UK with BT, or Spain and Telefonica) would be good examples.

I will certainly concede that there isn't genuine free competition. Unfortunately the only way to engineer "real competition" amongst landline-based telcos is LLU, as it is not economically viable for a private or public company to equal the infrastructural bankroll of a former semi-state telco.

As it stands, full LLU is a distant goal that gets further away with each passing day. The government gave Comreg all bark and little bite, and even comreg's bark is a whimper.

The blame, therefore, currently lies with the government and it's lapdog regulator.

Steffano2002 wrote:

You want a solid reason? Ok... Here it is (or here's what it should be): "Because ComReg imposes it".

Show me an example from another country where a regulatory body has successfully enforced a zero downtime arrangement between LLU competitors.

Or at least outline (not looking for dramatic detail) to me the technical process involved and how you see it as an economically feasible solution.

Because I know you wouldn't be making such proclaimaitions without more than an "all the telco companies hate customers and are stupid they should just do this..." argument. You clearly have some knowledge of the relevant telecommunications technology. Right?

Liam Byrne

I just had a "Ghost of Christmas Past" style dream, in which the Goverment only sold Telecom Eireann's retail business and kept the backbone/wholesale business as a part of the country's infrastructure/public service.

In the dream, I got to choose between 900 competing offerings before picking a 6Mb uncontended operator for €20 per month.

Sigh!

Steffano2002

CuLT wrote:

Show me an example from another country where a regulatory body has successfully enforced a zero downtime arrangement between LLU competitors.

How about leading the field in something as opposed to just following what other countries do for a change?

CuLT wrote:

Or at least outline (not looking for dramatic detail) to me the technical process involved and how you see it as an economically feasible solution.

Because I know you wouldn't be making such proclaimaitions without more than an "all the telco companies hate customers and are stupid they should just do this..." argument. You clearly have some knowledge of the relevant telecommunications technology. Right?

I have absolutely no knowledge of the relevant telecommunications technology. I just want things to work the way I want them to work. I know they never will! But I'm sure as hell going to ask and tell the world!

Oh, and I never said telco companies were stupid and that they hated their customers! But I do think that of Eircom I have to admit...

CuLT

Steffano2002 wrote:

How about leading the field in something as opposed to just following what other countries do for a change?


I have absolutely no knowledge of the relevant telecommunications technology. I just want things to work the way I want them to work. I know they never will! But I'm sure as hell going to ask and tell the world!

Oh, and I never said telco companies were stupid and that they hated their customers! But I do think that of Eircom I have to admit...

The point I'm making is that you are being unreasonable; you pay for what you get.

In the same way that you can't expect a Nissan Micra to perform like a Ferrari F40.

Do you understand how ludicrous it would be if you were to demand your Micra go 250km/h, have air conditioning and all the trimmings? Do you understand that saying you don't know anything about cars is not a justification for this?

MoreBeer

cubix wrote:

Rant over
Cubix

I hate that expression "Rant Over". Make your point and get on with it.

Steffano2002

CuLT wrote:

The point I'm making is that you are being unreasonable; you pay for what you get.

In the same way that you can't expect a Nissan Micra to perform like a Ferrari F40.

Do you understand how ludicrous it would be if you were to demand your Micra go 250km/h, have air conditioning and all the trimmings? Do you understand that saying you don't know anything about cars is not a justification for this?

I fully agree with you! It's completely unreasonable! But still, that's what I want...

I just think ComReg/the government could do a lot more when it comes to telecommunications in this country... And if we're all really unreasonable and ask for the moon well they might start making more of an effort (i.e if we all ask for the Nissan Micra to have a top speed of 250km/h, it will probably never happen, however, we might get 200km/h whivh is better than the actual 96km/h!).

If only things could be the way they were in Liam Byrne's dream... :rolleyes:

Big Chief

as long as your not switching to a LLU exchange - there is no break in service unless you cancel bitstream on your line and get it reconnected..

only thing that changes is the username and password required in the router configuration to access the service.

Problem is no company has an obligation to provide the information required for having to do this, no literature or documentation.. the only help you will get is to initially set it up from the tech support people. If you have half a clue about things though - the only thing needing to be done as ive explained is to put in the new user/pass into your router, the only break in service is the timeframe it takes you to go into the router and change this

(as i said before... unless your changing to/from an LLU)

alas - whats this rant about again

Big Chief

Steffano2002 wrote:

I just think ComReg/the government could do a lot more when it comes to telecommunications in this country...

How they got the name of "regulator" im not sure since they have no power in the country, technically they cant actually regulate anything...

Eircom act as judge jury and executioner as they so wish and im afraid the lapdogs over at "comreg" cant do one iota about it.

Got 2 options for them really, give them more power to act actually as a regulator for once or just abolish them, as it stands now they are an advisory board... and even then the advice they give to some people is idiotic and working in telecommunications the amount of times ive had to correct what one of there gobsh*tes have said on the phone to an unknowing trusting consumer is beyond belief...

Most of them need to get a clue im afraid.

Liam Byrne

as long as your not switching to a LLU exchange

That sounds nice and transparent, unfortunately it translates to "as long as you're not ACTUALLY switching away from eircom". Stick with a reseller and we'll look after you, switch to a better provider/package and we'll do everything we can to make it awkward for you.

Steffano2002

Liam Byrne wrote:

That sounds nice and transparent, unfortunately it translates to "as long as you're not ACTUALLY switching away from eircom". Stick with a reseller and we'll look after you, switch to a better provider/package and we'll do everything we can to make it awkward for you.

That's exactly it!

I'm waiting for an Eircom engineer to go to my exchange and change some wires around so I can get my Magnet connection working...
My account is active, I have my Magnet modem/router, etc. All this took 4 working days! And now I have to wait 2 weeks for an engineer to go over and finalise the connection... And I'm sure Eircom are in no hurry to hand off my line so I'll be lucky if it's only 2 weeks...

spurious

And yet people are still switching.....:D

Big Chief

Liam Byrne wrote:

That sounds nice and transparent, unfortunately it translates to "as long as you're not ACTUALLY switching away from eircom". Stick with a reseller and we'll look after you, switch to a better provider/package and we'll do everything we can to make it awkward for you.

well unless your changing to magnet or smart then your not moving to an LLU (excluding ntl who are a cable broadband provider..) and any wireless provider

every other place that i know of is a eircom reseller:

BT
Perlico
UTV
Imagine
Gaelic telecom
etc..

Switching to a LLU provider is by no means a way of saying its a better provider... or package so that comment im not sure what its trying to imply exactly. That any reseller will never compete with a company who has to change your telephone number and move to there exchange, and in the unfortunate circumstance that said company goes bust your left without service for 6 weeks+ ??

reptonite

Only two things can I add to this, as they are lessons learned over the past year.

a) Everyone (except Magnet) are using Eircom kit. Therefore, an engineer will get a daily 'list' of jobs, or problems to solve. Three guesses as to which provider's jobs come first...and we all know they are given too much to do on a daily basis, hence delays in service correction for other providers. You get what you pay for, as CuLT says.

b) Magnet is now where Chorus were 6 yrs ago with their cable service. The system is maxed out, and a certain amount of 'accepted' customers complaining about (for instance) half-hour TV load-times are dealt with on a monthly basis. That is, you get your connection refreshed, and are fine for a week.......then suffer a gradual deteriation.

Caveat emptor, for business is business.....

Rept

Liam Byrne

Everyone (except Magnet) are using Eircom kit

I didn't think Smart were ?

Switching to a LLU provider is by no means a way of saying its a better provider... or package so that comment im not sure what its trying to imply exactly.

No, it's not, but there is an implied reasoning in there that eircom are not confident enough to compete on level terms.

As I've said on numerous occasions, if eircom's (or anyone else's) package was good enough and priced right, with reasonable support, etc, then they can be confident enough to compete on level terms. On face value, what you say is correct, BUT (and it's a big BUT) no-one would go through the current hassle of switching via LLU (and the resulting change of phone number) unless they were pretty sure they were getting a better package, would they ?

And the converse argument ? If eircom feel the need to disrupt those who wish to move in an attempt to discourage them, then there's something wrong.....as spurious said, people are still switching, despite the obstacles. Making it awkward is annoying and dragging eircom's reputation down; improving their service, ditching the bully-boy tactics and giving subscribers the best service at the right price would do the exact opposite and would immediately stop anyone from wanting to switch.

So why put all the effort into the wrong tactic ?


Let's make an analogy here (and it's late, so this may have holes but bear with me)....

You run a hotel. You've noticed that people want to move out to a new hotel down the road because it's nicer/cheaper/whatever. Do you

a) put security guards on the door to hassle people leaving, trying to FORCE them to stay, and bring their luggage down really slowly (pissing them off even more so that they tell their friends about the experience,

OR

b) try to improve your service/prices so that they WANT to stay put ?

cubix

Going to shoot of an email to Magnet but would like boarder's opions please
While I understand there is no way around the down time when switching the BB from eircom to Magnets but will also be switching the voice calls as well. In a brief email from Magnet support they say it will take slightly longer to port over my number instead of giving me a new one, no worries I can wait but then I wondered am I with out a voice phone line while this is going on?

Thanks

vibe666

what Liam said!

I moved house in March, to a house where the previous owners had had eircom DSL. i wanted to move my BT DSL to the new house (in a different area) and it took a whole 3 months before I got my DSL up and running.

hardly seamless.

Cabaal

Steffano2002 wrote:

I think there should be something in place for switching between Eircom, BT, Magnet, ESAT, Digiweb, etc... Now that would be something!

Perhaps something like this http://www.ofcom.org.uk/advice/codes/bbm_cop/

We can only hope that such a system will become available here, even in the UK LLU Migrations is still a major problem still so migrating to Smart or Magnet would still be a issue

Steffano2002

Cabaal wrote:

Perhaps something like this http://www.ofcom.org.uk/advice/codes/bbm_cop/

We can only hope that such a system will become available here, even in the UK LLU Migrations is still a major problem still so migrating to Smart or Magnet would still be a issue

That would be a MASSIVE step in the right direction alright! Will we bum these people an e-mail and see if they want to help our (so called) ComReg out?