Golf Club Membership Fees

MisterAnarchy

Just got my bill for 2007 and its gone up 25% this year.
The fees have risen steadily over the last few years and at this stage I'm beginning to wonder if its actually worth it.
Its €860 for the year .
The fees have risen by approximately 70% in the last four years ,yet nobody seems to bat an eyelid.
I play in Mallow,which has one of the largest memberships in the country,over 1100 Ordinary members,and only 18 holes to maintain.
Its a fine course but the management there are atrocious and I cant understand the constant price increases.
What kind of fees are other people paying and have ye encountered the same rapid price increases in the last few years ?

Trampas

I presume it came up in the AGM the reason why.

If not you should ask at the AGM

Gillie

It's gonna cost me €165 to join (for the first time) in Tubbercurry. Its only a nine hole course but a nice one all the same.

MisterAnarchy

Trampas wrote:

I presume it came up in the AGM the reason why.

If not you should ask at the AGM

I've read the balance sheets and I attended the AGM.
Main problem is rising wages,equipment costs and materials.
Instead of trying to reduce these which they can considerably, as I know one of the greenkeeping staff well ,they decided to rip off the members.

FlutterinBantam

You need a strong hand in there Anarchy...

Fee seems very high for
a.. location
b.. number of members
c.. only 18 holes.

What I would look for is a comparison with clubs in the area with regard to
Staffing levels
Admin staff
salarys paid
Equipment management.

It would appear on the face of it you are paying well above the odds.

MisterAnarchy

FlutterinBantam wrote:

You need a strong hand in there Anarchy...

Fee seems very high for
a.. location
b.. number of members
c.. only 18 holes.

What I would look for is a comparison with clubs in the area with regard to
Staffing levels
Admin staff
salarys paid
Equipment management.

It would appear on the face of it you are paying well above the odds.

Thanks for the good advice.
I'm going to get info on other clubs in the area and make the comparisons as you have said.
Its very sad what has happened to the club in the last few years.
As well as the constant price increases they have changed the constitution a fair bit to try and screw as much money out of the members as possible.
Before if you were an ordinary member for 30 years when you became 65 you got free membership.
Very fair.
They have now changed that to 72 !
Family membership has been abolished .
Husband and Wife membership is the same price as 2 ordinary members,i.e no reduction.
Student membership rose 30% this year.
Pavilion member (Uses bar facilities only) has gone from 50 to 200 euro in 2 years.
At the same time the condition of the course has deteriorated.
The greens are constantly being hollowtined and are covered in sand most of the time.
The winter tee boxes used are cheap low quality plastic,an insult to ask members to play off such junk.
Last year I brought it up at a meeting that they should buy decent winter mats or else use the front of the normal tee boxes .
They used the front of the tee boxes last Winter and it was a huge success but this Winter they have gone back to the crap mats again for no apparent reason.
The price keeps going up yet the service is getting worse and worse.
At the rate they are going the place will be bankrupted.

Benny-c

Who 'owns' the course/club, the members or is there a landowner in posession of same?

If it is owned by a person (or a group of persons) there may be another reason for the huge rise in fees.

BTW I am a member of Castleisland GC in Kerry and mine are €515, the same (I think) as last year.

It seems that Mallow GC is a ripoff, something is clearly amiss.

MisterAnarchy

Benny-c wrote:

Who 'owns' the course/club, the members or is there a landowner in posession of same?

If it is owned by a person (or a group of persons) there may be another reason for the huge rise in fees.

BTW I am a member of Castleisland GC in Kerry and mine are €515, the same (I think) as last year.

It seems that Mallow GC is a ripoff, something is clearly amiss.

The course is owned by the members ,always has been.

Initially started as a 9 hole course in the town but moved to its present site about 50 years ago and added another 9 holes .
The course was slightly redeveloped about 12 years ago,new USPGA sand based greens were built.
It put the club in a bit of debt but that was paid off in the subsequent years and the subs remained very reasonable.
There are 4 floodlit tennis courts and 2 squash courts at the club too but these have been there a long time.

The main problem I can see is that there is a group of people with vested interests on the committee .
Alot of them dont play golf and they dont seem to have any common sense or business acumen.
The secretary/manager is out of his debt and he is not suitably qualified.
There is no properly qualified greenskeeper either.

Lately the committee have been touting the notion of a new club house .
Its estimated cost is 6m and from the plans it seems to be mostly committee meeting rooms.
No squash courts in the new plans .The tennis courts would have to be relocated too.
Its about as necessary as a hole in the head,yet it keeps on being brought up for discussion.
How much would the fees have to increase , to pay for this white elephant ?

I'm going to get to the bottom of it as I'd hate to see the club go broke but at the rate its going this could happen in the next few years.
€515 seems very reasonable for membership .Thanks for the info.

jancav

seems pretty high to me, although there's obviously big demand for membership at your club. membership at Lahinch has gone up this year from 540 to 640 for men 690 for women (although this includes a one off levy from ILGU - they are normally about the same). Both rates include 100 catering levy which you can spend over the year in the pavilion. Over 65 you pay half the rate IF you have been a member for 25 years. Pavilion membership is 70. So, overall I guess it's OK for 36 holes

J.R.HARTLEY

MisterAnarchy wrote:

The main problem I can see is that there is a group of people with vested interests on the committee .
Alot of them dont play golf and they dont seem to have any common sense or business acumen.
The secretary/manager is out of his debt and he is not suitably qualified.
There is no properly qualified greenskeeper either.

Lately the committee have been touting the notion of a new club house .
Its estimated cost is 6m and from the plans it seems to be mostly committee meeting rooms.
No squash courts in the new plans .The tennis courts would have to be relocated too.
Its about as necessary as a hole in the head,yet it keeps on being brought up for discussion.
How much would the fees have to increase , to pay for this white elephant ?

I'm going to get to the bottom of it as I'd hate to see the club go broke but at the rate its going this could happen in the next few years.
€515 seems very reasonable for membership .Thanks for the info.

that all sounds very dogdy to me my friend (a committee full of non golfers, who voted for them), good luck with what you find out, if there's one thing i do admire its someone who's willing to do something, too many people just complain without acting, fair play to you.:)

MisterAnarchy

jancav wrote:

seems pretty high to me, although there's obviously big demand for membership at your club. membership at Lahinch has gone up this year from 540 to 640 for men 690 for women (although this includes a one off levy from ILGU - they are normally about the same). Both rates include 100 catering levy which you can spend over the year in the pavilion. Over 65 you pay half the rate IF you have been a member for 25 years. Pavilion membership is 70. So, overall I guess it's OK for 36 holes

€640 per year for 36 holes in Lahinch is phenomenally good value.
The Old course is one of the best courses in Munster.
Its playable all year round too as its sand based.
I had many a fine outing there.
Mallow fee consists of Sub:700 ,Bar Levy:50 euro and a new Land Levy:100 euro.
The Land levy is for a piece of land they recently acquired for well over the odds.

J R Hartley wrote:

that all sounds very dogdy to me my friend (a committee full of non golfers, who voted for them)

The main problem with Mallow golf club is that alot of the members are living in Cork City and they dont really care about the running of the club.
At a recent meeting to decide whether to purchase a new plot of land for €1.4m the motion was carried by 65 votes to 42.
Thats 65 out of 1100 full members that were in favour,huge apathy.
The meeting was called at short notice and it stunk of a fix.
An EGM should have been called for such a major issue.
They also passed a motion to allow a developer build a sewage pipe through the course .
It was suicide as with the pipe the developer can build houses along the perimeter of the course .
Without the pipe he was snookered .
They sold out for 75k ,an absolute disgrace.I was flaberghasted at the ignorance of the committee.
Motions are being carried by small groups of people with vested interests.

I was talking to a few friends of mine who are members and I think people are finally beginning to react to the way the club is being misrun ,enough is enough.

DIEGO WORST

MisterAnarchy wrote:

At a recent meeting to decide whether to purchase a new plot of land for €1.4m the motion was carried by 65 votes to 42.
Thats 65 out of 1100 full members that were in favour,huge apathy.
The meeting was called at short notice and it stunk of a fix.

Is there anyway to void that meeting? Or at least void the major decision made at that meeting?

MisterAnarchy wrote:

An EGM should have been called for such a major issue.
They also passed a motion to allow a developer build a sewage pipe through the course .
It was suicide as with the pipe the developer can build houses along the perimeter of the course .
Without the pipe he was snookered .
They sold out for 75k ,an absolute disgrace.I was flaberghasted at the ignorance of the committee.

Motions are being carried by small groups of people with vested interests.

Be careful allowing developers to build along the perimeter of your course. I’ve seen cases where beautiful greens had to be ripped up becoz they were situated too close to newly built houses, resulting in insurance problems (namely the club’s insurance.)

MisterAnarchy

DIEGO WORST wrote:

Be careful allowing developers to build along the perimeter of your course. I’ve seen cases where beautiful greens had to be ripped up becoz they were situated too close to newly built houses, resulting in insurance problems (namely the club’s insurance.)

The club were initially against any development along the perimeter of the course and they joined with the local residents to help stop rezoning.
The club cited huge insurance costs as potentially putting the club out of business.
The land changed hands a few times in the following years and then the golf club were approached to allow the sewage pipe be put through the course.
Any intelligent person could see that the only way rezoning could be allowed was if the sewage pipe be put in.
The club had the developers stymied but the idiots on the committee went ahead and did a huge u turn selling out for buttons and screwing the local residents too.
It is insanity.

FlutterinBantam

Fair play Anarchy...don't let it drop.

Anyone who even thinks about spending huge money on a new clubhouse ,when the clubhouses of the country are empty and losing money due to the d.d. regs is a total tosser.

Best of luck tring to change things,but it will not be easy as things seem to have gotten way out of control.

MisterAnarchy

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Fair play Anarchy...don't let it drop.

Anyone who even thinks about spending huge money on a new clubhouse ,when the clubhouses of the country are empty and losing money due to the d.d. regs is a total tosser.

Best of luck tring to change things,but it will not be easy as things seem to have gotten way out of control.

Cheers Flutterin,
Yeah the clubhouse in Mallow is deserted during the Winter evenings.
Some nights there would be 2 or 3 people in the bar .
Is it like that in other clubs too ,I guess you are right the Drink Driving laws have changed the scene.

jancav

That developer thing is serious....was the agenda for the AGM circulated to all members before the meeting, and did it include the contentious issues? If not, there could be legal implications - worth contacting a lawyer about it.

Regarding the clubhouse thing, Lahinch is empty in the winter during the week. There's usually a few people watching sport on telly during the day at the weekend, but the evenings are deserted.

I think there is a proposal on the cards to build a new clubhouse, but it would be catering mainly for green fees people in the summer, as most locals go into town to the pubs! Although the food has improved a lot this year, so that might change. In any case, I would oppose any new clubhouse, as we currently have two: the one on the Castle course is never used, and the main one is fine for the requirements. I think the management would like it to be 'swankier' to live up to the rep of the course.

MisterAnarchy

jancav wrote:

That developer thing is serious....was the agenda for the AGM circulated to all members before the meeting, and did it include the contentious issues? If not, there could be legal implications - worth contacting a lawyer about it.

Regarding the clubhouse thing, Lahinch is empty in the winter during the week. There's usually a few people watching sport on telly during the day at the weekend, but the evenings are deserted.

I think there is a proposal on the cards to build a new clubhouse, but it would be catering mainly for green fees people in the summer, as most locals go into town to the pubs! Although the food has improved a lot this year, so that might change. In any case, I would oppose any new clubhouse, as we currently have two: the one on the Castle course is never used, and the main one is fine for the requirements. I think the management would like it to be 'swankier' to live up to the rep of the course.

It wasnt even an AGM or EGM where the vote was taken on the pipeline.
A letter was sent out to the members about 5 days before the meeting ,it was very vague and had no specifics,just mentioned the two issues in one sentence each.
Meeting was in the Summer time too ,height of holiday season.
Some people stood up at the meeting and requested that an EGM would need to be called for such a decision ,they were told to keep quiet.
The Developers presentation was given by an engineer who also happens to be on the committee !! Very objective :rolleyes:
I was speaking to the local residents group last week and it seems that they might be able to stop the pipline's progress.
Anytime anyone tries to raise a contentious issue at a meeting the committee silence them.
The club earned 700k in subs last year and 75k in Green Fees.
They spent 425k on wages alone though ,Bar lost 10k.
Its not a healthy situation when a club spends over 55% of its income on wages.
Seems the waiting list has dried up and alot of people are not joining this year.
Club could be in serious trouble this time next year but hopefully the members will have spoken by then.

slumped

MisterAnarchy wrote:

The club earned 700k in subs last year and 75k in Green Fees.
They spent 425k on wages alone though ,Bar lost 10k.
.

Firstly 700k seems about right for such a large membership base.

75k in Green Fees is a paltry amount altogether. A club like Mallow should be doing 150k PLUS.

425k on wages is not very high if bar and catering are in house -

Secretary Manager - €50000
Secretarial - €50000(2 staff)
Greenkeeper - €40000
5 course staff - €120000
Bar manager - €30000
Bar staff - €50000
Chef - €35000
Kitchen staff - €50000

A bar losing 10k is not too bad - profit percentage should be 50-55% there.

Remember - the committee are elected by the members.

Also remember that if you can get enough signatures (normally 25-40) you can force the club to call an EGM to discuss anything you want.

S

rick_fantastic

got my renewal there in the post...

86€ for the year. god bless student membership.

saying that i dont have a vote until i start paying full membership @ 26.

think full fees are in the region of €8/900 a year.

MisterAnarchy

slumped wrote:

Firstly 700k seems about right for such a large membership base.

75k in Green Fees is a paltry amount altogether. A club like Mallow should be doing 150k PLUS.

425k on wages is not very high if bar and catering are in house -

Secretary Manager - €50000
Secretarial - €50000(2 staff)
Greenkeeper - €40000
5 course staff - €120000
Bar manager - €30000
Bar staff - €50000
Chef - €35000
Kitchen staff - €50000

A bar losing 10k is not too bad - profit percentage should be 50-55% there.

Remember - the committee are elected by the members.

Also remember that if you can get enough signatures (normally 25-40) you can force the club to call an EGM to discuss anything you want.

S

Your figures seem reasonable but thats why Mallow is in the situation it is.
Here are the figures from last year
Secretary Manager :75k
Secretary:20k
These two are going up to 106k combined this year.:rolleyes:
6 full time Course staff:250k
We dont have a properly qualified greenkeeper.
The guy we have is a nice guy ,very hard worker but he doesnt have the necessary qualifications.
The catering facilities are provided by a Chef but he provides his own staff and his own wage ,he gets the club's facilities for 1 euro a year.
No costs there bar light and heat .
There is no bar manager now,he left about a year ago.
Bar wages are about 50k I think .
Cleaning staff costs are pretty low too.
So you see the costs are far too high particularly administration when the secretary manager is being paid more than the green fee intake.
I honestly dont know what the secretary manager spends his time doing as most areas are run by the necessary people.

slumped

MisterAnarchy wrote:

Your figures seem reasonable but thats why Mallow is in the situation it is.
Here are the figures from last year
Secretary Manager :75k
Secretary:20k
These two are going up to 106k combined this year.:rolleyes:
6 full time Course staff:250k
We dont have a properly qualified greenkeeper.
The guy we have is a nice guy ,very hard worker but he doesnt have the necessary qualifications.
The catering facilities are provided by a Chef but he provides his own staff and his own wage ,he gets the club's facilities for 1 euro a year.
No costs there bar light and heat .
There is no bar manager now,he left about a year ago.
Bar wages are about 50k I think .
Cleaning staff costs are pretty low too.
So you see the costs are far too high particularly administration when the secretary manager is being paid more than the green fee intake.
I honestly dont know what the secretary manager spends his time doing as most areas are run by the necessary people.

Seems like the greenkeeper is your main problem.

Who prepares the budgets for him? How does he know what's the best and latest treatments for the course?

Manager needs to do some serious fundraising - green fees should be 150k plus!

jancav

MisterAnarchy wrote:

It wasnt even an AGM or EGM where the vote was taken on the pipeline.
A letter was sent out to the members about 5 days before the meeting ,it was very vague and had no specifics,just mentioned the two issues in one sentence each.
.

Do you have a copy of the club's constitution? There should be something in there about when an EGM needs to be called in order to make a decision before the next AGM. This issue sounds like it should be in that category.

MisterAnarchy

jancav wrote:

Do you have a copy of the club's constitution? There should be something in there about when an EGM needs to be called in order to make a decision before the next AGM. This issue sounds like it should be in that category.

I have an old one.
They have redrafted the constitution 10 times in the last 5 years,its crazy.

slumped wrote:

Seems like the greenkeeper is your main problem.

Who prepares the budgets for him? How does he know what's the best and latest treatments for the course?

Manager needs to do some serious fundraising - green fees should be 150k plus!

An external so called expert comes over every few months and advises what to do ,the groundstaff carry it out.
Their main strategy seems to hollow tine the greens once a month all year round,a ludicrous policy.
The greens are covered in sand far too often hence the low number of green fees.
Nobody is going to pay 50 euro to putt on a beach.
The condition of the rest of the couse is quite good its just a few minor things ,Winter tee boxes,badly designed bunkers that I'd have an issue with.
These could be resolved easily.

stringy

how about €1300 for the year!?!

course in Dublin with 27 holes

subs €1050ish
GUI fee €15.50
New clubhouse levy €250ish
Member levy? €50ish

(dont have exact figures off hand)

Granted the greens are superb, course playable all year round, never a problem getting out, large practice field, nice clubhouse

still it's a big dent to the bank a/c

ASBO

Bodenstown this year: €810 renewal..€50 of that is made up of competition vouchers & €50 is a catering voucher (though we currently don't have caterers!!) but will be re-issued as competition vouchers.

There's 36 holes in a close proximity to Dublin but we've had issues with the private owner. We tried to bring in professional greenkeepers but we were shot down.

I'd have left the place long ago but for the price of joining anywhere else in the vicinity..

That's bad stuff in Mallow alright considering it's run by members..

Keep up the fight

MisterAnarchy

ASBO wrote:

Bodenstown this year: €810 renewal..€50 of that is made up of competition vouchers & €50 is a catering voucher (though we currently don't have caterers!!) but will be re-issued as competition vouchers.

There's 36 holes in a close proximity to Dublin but we've had issues with the private owner. We tried to bring in professional greenkeepers but we were shot down.

I'd have left the place long ago but for the price of joining anywhere else in the vicinity..

That's bad stuff in Mallow alright considering it's run by members..

Keep up the fight

Thats a pretty fair price for Dublin and 36 holes which is handy esp during the busy Summer months.Nothing worse than trying to get out for a game and the course is thronged.
A good professional greenskeeper pays for itself in the long run as the condition of the course will be optimised and long term costs reduced.

Par72

My sub is €1600 a year, I think €150 of it is for use in the bar and restaurant. The worst thing is it has to be paid in October every year.

corkandproud

We're paying 1400 in Harbour Point this year, a bit over the top but a class course. Privately owned so not much room for manouvre. In fairness they're putting it all back in to the course.

Is Dave still running Mallow. Remember wages include 10% PRSI and possible pension contributions.

MisterAnarchy

corkandproud wrote:

We're paying 1400 in Harbour Point this year, a bit over the top but a class course. Privately owned so not much room for manouvre. In fairness they're putting it all back in to the course.

Is Dave still running Mallow. Remember wages include 10% PRSI and possible pension contributions.

Thats alot for Harbour Point.
I played it once,hated it,it was way too tight for my liking .
That was about 6 years ago so it may have improved since then and prob has seeing as you said they are putting the money back into the course
Yip Dave is still running Mallow or supposed to be anyway ...