strictly private commercial ...yes,no,maybe?

peasant

I know this question has been asked before, but there always were conflicting opinions on what can and can't be done:

Situation: I have no business, I use my car for nobody elses business and I do not want to commit fraud of any kind ...my car is strictly privately used.

I am considering getting a second hand commercial (perhaps even a big stonking 4x4 or just a Berlingo type thingy) as two seats is really all I need and commercials are cheaper to buy.

now the questions:

1) road tax
using the car strictly privately ...can I or can't I (legally) avail of the cheaper commercial tax or do I have to tax it as a private car?

2) insurance
is there anybody out there who managed to get private insurance on a commercial? I don't quite see why I should be forced to get (more expensive) commercial insurance when I don't use the car commercially but for "domestic and social" purposes only.

Has anybody got any official/legal links ?

Thank you ..

Wishbone Ash

peasant wrote:

1) road tax
using the car strictly privately ...can I or can't I (legally) avail of the cheaper commercial tax or do I have to tax it as a private car?

Yes it must be taxed privately if the vehicle is not used commercially.

peasant wrote:

is there anybody out there who managed to get private insurance on a commercial?

Yes, I had private insurance on a van. It's more difficult to get. I had to go via a broker and it is more expensive relatively speaking. None of the 'big mainstream' companies do it.

peasant

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Yes it must be taxed privately if the vehicle is not used commercially.

Thanks

That put's an end to that. No way will I rattle around in a two litre, no spec boombox if a decent 1.6 estate is cheaper to run. And it definetly rules out that 3 litre diesel 4x4

Wishbone Ash

peasant wrote:

Thanks

That put's an end to that. No way will I rattle around in a two litre, no spec boombox if a decent 1.6 estate is cheaper to run. And it definetly rules out that 3 litre diesel 4x4

There wouldn't be that much of a difference between the tax on a 1.6 and a 2.0.

There is a bit of a NCT/DOE loophole with taxing/insuring a commercial vehicle privately. You are not called for a DOE or an NCT. Although strictly speaking, it is up to the registered owner to arrange any such test.

peasant

Wishbone Ash wrote:

There wouldn't be that much of a difference between the tax on a 1.6 and a 2.0.

You're right. There is a big difference in spec and driving comfort though.

Most Berlingo/Doblo/Kangoo type thingies don't even have a passenger airbag, some have these really uncomfortable folding passenger seats, etc, etc

And driving that big empty load area around makes for an awful lot of noise.

I'll just get a normal car/estate and adapt the load bay according my (or rather the dogs' ) needs.

Wishbone Ash

peasant wrote:

You're right. There is a big difference in spec and driving comfort though.

Most Berlingo/Doblo/Kangoo type thingies don't even have a passenger airbag, some have these really uncomfortable folding passenger seats, etc, etc

And driving that big empty load area around makes for an awful lot of noise.

100% agree. You only realise how noisy they are when you stop at the lights and realise that the radio had to be on full volume to hear it while driving at speed.

peasant wrote:

I'll just get a normal car/estate and adapt the load bay according my (or rather the dogs' ) needs.

Yes, an estate with the rear seats folded/removed gives more room than many 4x4s.

kevinp

peasant wrote:

I know this question has been asked before, but there always were conflicting opinions on what can and can't be done:

Situation: I have no business, I use my car for nobody elses business and I do not want to commit fraud of any kind ...my car is strictly privately used.

I am considering getting a second hand commercial (perhaps even a big stonking 4x4 or just a Berlingo type thingy) as two seats is really all I need and commercials are cheaper to buy.

now the questions:

1) road tax
using the car strictly privately ...can I or can't I (legally) avail of the cheaper commercial tax or do I have to tax it as a private car?



2) insurance
is there anybody out there who managed to get private insurance on a commercial? I don't quite see why I should be forced to get (more expensive) commercial insurance when I don't use the car commercially but for "domestic and social" purposes only.

Has anybody got any official/legal links ?

Thank you ..

If you are not using it in connection with a bussiness you have to tax it privately. Sorry !.... more money

peasant

another theoretical question...

assuming I got myself a Belingo van, taxed and insured it privately ...could I then go and put windows in the rear (windows only, no seats !) or would that mean the VRT people would come after me for VRT due as it would now be deemed to be a passenger vehicle ?

theoretical question only ...

maidhc

peasant wrote:

another theoretical question...

assuming I got myself a Belingo van, taxed and insured it privately ...could I then go and put windows in the rear (windows only, no seats !) or would that mean the VRT people would come after me for VRT due as it would now be deemed to be a passenger vehicle ?

theoretical question only ...

My understanding (and I think it is correct), is that a commercial vehicle need not be used commercially. E.g. A Berlingo is taxed as a commercial, because that is what it is, not because it is used for a business.

To qualify as a commercial (for VRT and tax purposes) it must have steel rear windows, no seats and have a certain sized load area. It does not matter if it is used by a private individual for pleasure purposes, it will always be a commercial, and taxed as such for as long as it meets the criteria.

If you put in windows, or seats it will cease to be a commercial, and the VRT people would like to meet you. Ultimately there is no great take up on this "loophole" because insurance can be an issue with Berlingo (or even Corolla) type vans, and not everyone wants the inconvenience of a 2 seater (cue the issue with crew cabs a few years ago).

peasant

so ...there we go again ...two conflicting schools of thought:

My understanding (and I think it is correct), is that a commercial vehicle need not be used commercially ... It does not matter if it is used by a private individual for pleasure purposes, it will always be a commercial, and taxed as such for as long as it meets the criteria.

and

If you are not using it in connection with a bussiness you have to tax it privately. Sorry !....

Yes it must be taxed privately if the vehicle is not used commercially.

Believe it or not ...on inquiring with my local motor tax office on the phone some time ago, I got both answers as well ...from different people at tifferent times

So ...who's right and who's wrong?

Anyone got anything official ?

Links?

overdriver

Tell your current insurance company you have bought it because you have three big dogs, and you WANT commercial insurance. They will probably give it to you, and then you can enjoy the advantages that come with owning a van. to counter-act the lack of creature-comforts.

parsi

I feel commercial is that you can only have two live bodies... if you want more then you ahve to pay for the proper seating and tax,

overdriver

The Hiace, and other vans, have three seats, so that explanation might not be neccessarily true.

Rudolph Claus

If its a commercial vehicle its a commercial vehicle. As "Maidhc" said.
I fail to see the confusion here. Once its commercial it gets taxed as a commercial. You cant get and they wont give you commercial insurance unless you have commercial reasons and having 3 big/small/medium dogs doesnt qualify as commercial insurance strangely enough. Well, unless hes breeding them and selling tham as a commercial business.

You insure it privately, it will propably be cheaper than commercial insurance anyway.

So basicaly "Peasant" for your scenario you`ll be insuring it privately and taxing it commercially.

I have had a commercial taxed and insured in this way before. Also my uncles landcruiser is taxed and insured in this way as are all farmers jeeps etc. Farmrs dont get the vat off commercial jeeps by the way. If your having trouble getting insurance quotes try Fbd and Quinn direct who i know for definite both cover this scenario but if your having trouble just ring a broker. Its really not as complicated as the general boards people make out.

ps: commercial car/vans and jeeps arent much cheaper these days and can be hard to sell on especially with highish milesand the 2seats thing gets to be a right pain in the bollix after a while.

peasant

Nuttzy wrote:

the 2seats thing gets to be a right pain in the bollix after a while.

Well ...for the last four years now, I've effectively been driving a two seater anyway (see pic) and only once in those four years did I use the seats in the back and the two seater "thing" hasn't bothered me at all

The only thing with the current car (Jimny) is that when we're full up (wife and dogs) there is no room for shopping or anything ..which is a bit of a pain.

So the thought process is to either get an estate and use the rear seats for shopping ...or ...get a nice-ish commercial (with one or two side doors) and partion the area behind the side doors for shopping etc and leave the rest to the dogs.

The current yoke costs 272 in tax and gives about 35 mpg. Small estates with similar cost don't offer enough space in the back, bigger ones get very expensive to run...hence thinking about a commercial

patsyh

If you are buying it secondhand my advice would be to buy one of a person in a similar situation to you(ie not VAT registered) as if you buy it of somebody who is VAT registered they will sell you the car/van and this price will include VAT. you should be able to buy the same van of a person in a similar situation to you for less.

Eg. Buy it off a VAT registered person for €11,350k
This includes VAT of €1,350 so seller gets €10k after handing VAT to gov

Eg. Buy similar van off a non VAT registered person for €10k
This includes no VAT so seller gets €10k
(technically it wont work like this as the non VAT reg'd person will not want to sell it for only €10k as he would have paid the same amount as the VAT reg'd person when new but it should be alot cheaper).

If you buy it off a VAT reg'd person the car/van will then leave the VAT net and when you go to sell it nobody who is VAT registered will want to buy it of you as they cant reclaim the VAT on it.

Wishbone Ash

Nuttzy wrote:

Once its commercial it gets taxed as a commercial

I had a commercial van (not a car-van) and the Motor Tax Office insisted that it must be taxed privately as I was not involved in any business activity.

Alfasudcrazy

All vans have to be taxed privately if they are not used for commercial purposes - end of story.

It is however a grey area as it is sometimes hard to prove that a van is not being used commercially.

ie; a farmer using his commercially taxed 4WD to go to the nightclub with his girlfriend - this obviously is 'private' use. But all he has to say (and a lot do) is that he is rushing to find a vet to treat his sick cow etc so in terms of enforcement its difficult and I (I am a Garda) rarely see prosecutions in the courts for such offences.

I am sure a lot of commercial vehicles are used for private purposes and so breaking the law. There would only be a fraction of the large engined 4WD's on our roads if the enforcement of this law was more straightforward.

peasant

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

All vans have to be taxed privately if they are not used for commercial purposes - end of story.
(I am a Garda)

Thanks !

I'll take that as gospel so and forget about the 4.2 litre Landcruiser

kikel

peasant wrote:

Thanks !

I'll take that as gospel so and forget about the 4.2 litre Landcruiser

My van is taxed privately.

Wishbone Ash

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

I am sure a lot of commercial vehicles are used for private purposes and so breaking the law

I regularly see vans travelling on a Sunday with what appears to be families on board, going to church services, restaurants, cinema etc. There is a chap near me who can often be seen with his family in an Eircom van.

(And, of course, the travelling community, who have always favoured the Hiace as an ideal form of family transport )

thecivvie

I have been watching this thread and I know of several people with Trooper Bighorns, the 7 seater version which are alll used for private use with private insurance yet they are all registered as a commercial and pay the cheap tax

Panda Moanium

I'm still not clear on what exactly is the definition of a commercial vehicle. Does it have to only have two (or front) seats, or can someone like a farmer claim any vehicle is being used for commercial purposes and tax it as such?

Specifically, what is the situation regarding double cab pick-ups? I know the situation regarding VRT on them changed a couple of years back but they are still regarded as commercial vehicles, right?

Cmar-Ireland

I have a big 4x4, two seats in the front and a steel floor in the rear. It's taxed commercially and insured privately. Doe tested every year.
That's not breaking any laws...

peasant

Here's what the good people from the motortax website say on inquiry:

You need to have Commercial Insurance in order to tax a vehicle
Commercially. This means that you will need to be using your vehicle for
the carrying of goods. There cannot any seats in the back. If you are
using Privately only, then you will need tax it at the Private rate. For
further information on this, you will need to contact your local Motor
Tax Office.

Regards,

JohnBoy

I've recently done something similar.

I have an old range rover, I had used the back seats twice in six months, and both times we could have taken the car but there was stuff in the back seat of it and it was just easier to take the range rover.

I have just before christmas converted it legally to be a commercial. It is taxed and log booked as private/own goods it is insured privately through FBD, quinn direct wouldn't allow me to change it from passenger to commercial, even though i was already insured with them, if i was a new customer they probably wouldn't mind but i'm just sick of quinn direct's crap service to existing customers.

The requirments/steps were as follows.

remove seats and belts, weld up seatbelt mount holes, weld in a steel flat floor to cover the rear footwell.
get it weighed at an approved weighbridge
DOE it
get a form signed by the guards saying it will be used for commercial purposes only (this is the only such declaration, and according to the tax office is only a formality)
take it to the tax office to be inspected (opened the back door, looked in went grand and closed the back door again)
tax it as a private/own goods vehicle, they take the log book, a new one arrived back in the post a few days later.

according to the tax office people i'm fully legit now

Mc-BigE

This is a grey area and IMHO the DOE garage issuing the cert and motor tax office are to blame for this and they could be loosing loads of money because of this.

When buying a 3 or 4 litre new or UK/jap imported passenger jeep or suv (make sure its under 3tonnes), if you pay the VRT as a private vehicle then the VRO office issue a form (RF100 I think), this is when the VRO people say goodbye, they’ve got there pound of flesh!
Then get the vehicle insured PRIVATELY, this is were the loophole is closing, some insurance companies (not all) don’t ask the question “is the car taxed privately?”

On the form there are 2 boxes for ticking private and goods.

Some people “accidentally” tick the goods box, then take the passenger jeep with or without rear seats, it doesn’t seem to matter to some DOE garages, again I suppose there’s money in it for them also for doing the test/issuing the cert. They seem to throw a blind eye to the rear seat/glass rear windows, and go ahead and issue the cert.

Then armed with your DOE Cert and Private insurance cert, go to your motor tax office, and get commercial insurance 253 Euro a year (a saving of 1090 a year)
No one in the Motor-tax office seems to ask the question “is the car insured commercially?” they assume because it’s got a DOE cert it must be.

Its seems to be a simple a taking sweets from a baby. And total stupidly on the part of the DOE.
And regards the owner, has he actually broken any laws? Or is it a case if “honest mistake, I ticked the wrong box sir”

peasant

So the bottom line is:

Theoretically it IS illegal to tax a commercial vehicle as commercial when you use it privately only ....in practise there are ways around that

(I wouldn't risk it though, knowing my luck)

For me that means I will keep my eyes peeled for a nice, second hand Fiat Doblo or Opel Combo with the 1.3 litre diesel engine. (The engine is supposed to be very good and won't cost more than my current yoke). By buying a second hand commercial I will still be saving quite a bit of money, as the VRT (50 Euro) is much lower than on the equivalent passenger model, so you can get a 04/05 with low mileage under 10 k.

All I need to do now is to find a good one with side door(s) and a passenger airbag and then hang on to it until it falls apart ...because re-sale probably won't happen either.

ah well ...i'll see ...

Wishbone Ash

peasant wrote:

So the bottom line is:

Theoretically it IS illegal to tax a commercial vehicle as commercial when you use it privately only

Yes, just like I said in post #2 a week ago.