Did deValera want a united Ireland?

silverharp

What is the accepted view on this, I remember reading in Tim Pats book on him that for political reasons he wouldn't have wanted a large urban population that would not be voting FF? is this just an opinion?

walrusgumble

dev was not very clear cut on the ulster question. like haughey he used it when on his travels (usa with regard to dev) when ever he wanted to divert attention away from others matters such as the economy. i think there is an actual book on dev and ulster. i am sure by reading tim pat's book you will have noted a big bias towards collins so beware, his book is good though.

did he really want a united ireland? only he knows cause the civil war focused alot on that oath.we all know what happened in 1926, how he dismantled the 1922 consitution in the 1930's. i am sure you know about the old articles 2 and 3 of bunreacht na heireann which claimed the six counties.

whether or not he got the time due to other problems, he didn't really dwell on the six counties in latter years.

vesp

At least DeValera had the guts to execute some IRA thugs who he had imprisoned in the early forties. Haughey would never have done that.

Capt'n Midnight

Churchill offered him the North if he took Ireland in on the allies side. Not sure how genuine the offer was though. But one factor was that in a 36 county republic FF would not have a majority and the balance of power could be held by the Unionists.

Aedh Baclamh

vesp wrote:

At least DeValera had the guts to execute some IRA thugs who he had imprisoned in the early forties. Haughey would never have done that.

Vesp )

vesp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Churchill offered him the North if he took Ireland in on the allies side. Not sure how genuine the offer was though. But one factor was that in a 36 county republic FF would not have a majority and the balance of power could be held by the Unionists.

Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed.

Aedh Baclamh

You like pushing the boundries, don't you Vesp?

MILLIONS!

Capt'n Midnight

vesp wrote:

Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed.

war ?
Ah you must mean mean the emergency, 2 September 1939 - 1 September 1976

FF having the balance of power was the big issue for FF.
Sweden, Switzerland,Turkey, Spain were all neutral so we could have been too, esp since Dev was slightly dictatorial.

And you missed out a lot of the victims of the war, the Chinese, Poles, Religions.

csk

I don't think it's fair to pin the whole "didn't want a United Ireland cos Unionists would have balance of power" purely on De Valera, obviously it would be a concern but that could be labelled at every Irish politician since partition, TBH.

He was offered a United Ireland during WWII, but of course he had the more pertinent concern of keeping Ireland out of what really was just a messy old European conflagration. Plus it would only come about after the end of the war and there were no guarantees the Unionists would actually co-operate or the British would make them. So on balance he was right not to accept IMO.

He was definitly one of the most vocal of Irish politicians on the subject of Partition, yet he never really persued it with conviction. I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on his terms.

Capt'n Midnight

csk wrote:

I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on his terms.

I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on a plate.

He probably could have prevented the civil war escalating and a stronger Republic / less violence would have a better chance of reuniting.

csk

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

I think ultimately he did want a United Ireland but only wanted it on a plate.

He probably could have prevented the civil war escalating and a stronger Republic / less violence would have a better chance of reuniting.

Yes I would have to agree.
I should have probably added to him being "one of the most vocal on the issue", that he was also the one most responsible for cementing partition in place.

I would say that he could have prevented civil war full stop if he really wanted what was best for the country.

No civil war would have meant a stronger chance of reuniting all right. I don't know if that would have meant less violence though, I think Collins for one would not have let things stand and he would have had no qualms about violence. Would that have been good thing though, is anyone's guess.

walrusgumble

csk, you are right about collins, but i am sure, just beore someone like vesp gets word in, he was also a rationale and decent politican and organiser (check out 800 years thread on certain opinions) any way there is written proof of collins intentions on the north.

one thing about dev, he naturally, was too busy trying to create a nationalist irish economy ie self sufficency etc (many countries did this, but at this time it died on its ass until lemass era)

as we all know churchill was not keen on the handing over of the treaty ports, may have helped britain and shorten the war, but dev was dead right to stand up to him. has anyone ever heard dev's broadcast in rebuttal to churchill's after the war, implying churchill might have considered invading/occupying/breach or ignore ireland's neutrality.

maybe he meant well with his ideas, but they definitley helped to widen the gap between nationalist ireland and the unionists.

csk

Ah yes, I'd have to agree there, Collins was probably the most rationale and decent of all to have come out of the Independence movement. "The greatest Irish man since Brian Boru" as someome else once said.

Don't know about De Valera being too busy with the economy, I'd say he could have made time if he really wanted too.

I don't think Churchill actually recognised Irish neutrality as legal, although this was only his opinion and AFAIK plans of an invasion were drawn up with Churchill in favour of such an action. :eek:

I have only ever read parts of his speech, it would be interesting to hear it though.

vesp

Vesp : "Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed."

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

MILLIONS!

Thats right, six million actually died in the Nazi camps.

Capt'n Midnight

vesp wrote:

Vesp : "Of course the likelyhood of FF having the balance of power or not was the really big, important issue at stake when Europe was at war, when 120,000 Irishmen had volunteered to serve in British forces and when millions of Jews,gypsies,homosexuals, communists etc on mainland Europe were being gassed."
Thats right, six million actually died in the Nazi camps.

<sigh>
yes six million jews were killed in the death camps or by death squads, but the weren't the only ones,

It roughly breaks down as three million non-polish jews and six million poles ( three million jewish/three million non-jewish ) and six million russian civilians and three million russian POW's and another six million between serbs croats romanians roma handicapped etc.
not forgetting very roughly six million chinese killed by the japanese ( including a quarter of a million in retaliation for the Doolittle air raid - making it the biggest number of people killed for one raid (Dresden got hit over a few days) and six million killed by the chinese themselves - ( one explosion on a dam caused flooding that killed over a million, making it an order of magnitude worse than the atomic bombings. )

Anyway that all happened over there, miles away, just like WWI or the Armenian genocides or the Russian Civil War or the Spanish Civil War or ... any of the other events where millions died in the decades before WWII
or the Rif Wars or the Polish - Russian wars or the other Turkish wars and genocide, the Winter War. All while many neighbouring countries were able to keep away.

look at the time line of the war, the war in the west was a standoff for most of the time before and after the fall of france and norway, so was more like a status quo, later on of course the vast bulk of the axis powers were deployed against the russians

1939
germany and russia split poland between them
phony war
1940
Germany takes over France and Norway
Russia takes over the Baltic states
1941
Axis head to the Balkins
Invasion of Russia
Americans join in
1944
D-Day


Don't forget for years RTE News started off by listing major world events and then finishing with "but first, today in Northern Ireland"

vesp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

yes six million jews were killed in the death camps or by death squads, but the weren't the only ones,

It roughly breaks down as three million non-polish jews and six million poles ( three million jewish/three million non-jewish ) and six million russian civilians and three million russian POW's and another six million between serbs croats romanians roma handicapped etc.
not forgetting very roughly six million chinese killed by the japanese ( including a quarter of a million in retaliation for the Doolittle air raid - making it the biggest number of people killed for one raid (Dresden got hit over a few days) and six million killed by the chinese themselves - ( one explosion on a dam caused flooding that killed over a million, making it an order of magnitude worse than the atomic bombings. )

Anyway that all happened over there, miles away, just like WWI or the Armenian genocides or the Russian Civil War or the Spanish Civil War or ... any of the other events where millions died in the decades before WWII
or the Rif Wars or the Polish - Russian wars or the other Turkish wars and genocide, the Winter War. All while many neighbouring countries were able to keep away.

look at the time line of the war, the war in the west was a standoff for most of the time before and after the fall of france and norway, so was more like a status quo, later on of course the vast bulk of the axis powers were deployed against the russians

1939
germany and russia split poland between them
phony war
1940
Germany takes over France and Norway
Russia takes over the Baltic states
1941
Axis head to the Balkins
Invasion of Russia
Americans join in
1944
D-Day "

Disregarding some of your figures may be open to debate / correction, what is your point ?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Don't forget for years RTE News started off by listing major world events and then finishing with "but first, today in Northern Ireland"

lol I remember well back in the early eighties when a hero was starving himself to death for Ireland he was the headline news on RTE, but whenever he came off hunger strike there was not another word about him.

Capt'n Midnight

vesp wrote:

Disregarding some of your figures may be open to debate / correction, what is your point ?

in part to show how people have tunnel vision about certain historical facts, and keep repeating the mantra that "we" deserve more because "we" were victimised most

vesp wrote:

lol I remember well back in the early eighties when a hero was starving himself to death for Ireland he was the headline news on RTE, but whenever he came off hunger strike there was not another word about him.

hero :rolleyes:
"starving himself to death for Ireland" - eh no, he and a lot of people might have thought they were getting rid of the old regime , but what they were really doing (whether they knew it or not or supported it) was trying to get power for a minority who might have very different political beliefs to them. A classic example would be Iran after the Shah.

joebhoy1916

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

yes six million jews were killed in the death camps or by death squads, but the weren't the only ones,

And you know this for a fact?

Was there six million bodies recovered? No..

vesp wrote:

At least DeValera had the guts to execute some IRA thugs who he had imprisoned in the early forties. Haughey would never have done that.

Wasnt he the one who didnt agree with the agreement? Would I not be right In saying he started the civil war?

So them guy's in 40's were thug's but Dev wasnt Im sure he got more people killed than your normal IRA guy..

vesp

joebhoy1916 wrote:

And you know this for a fact?

Yes, if you know the slighest bit of history about the second world war you will know this is accepted fact.

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Was there six million bodies recovered? No..

That is because so many were cremated. If you - like I did - ever visited the crematoriums in the Nazi concentration camps and / or read books by survivors then you may be able to grap some facts.

vesp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

in part to show how people have tunnel vision about certain historical facts, and keep repeating the mantra that "we" deserve more because "we" were victimised most

So in other words you are highlighting the absurdity of FF worrying about having the balance of power or not when so many other nations - some neutral - were affected so much in the world war, with many millions killed, left homeless etc ? And when the battle of the Atlantic hung in the balance ?

Aedh Baclamh

That is because so many were cremated. If you - like I did - ever visited the crematoriums in the Nazi concentration camps and / or read books by survivors then you may be able to grap some facts.

How will visiting reconstructed areas improve my knowledge?

vesp

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

How will visiting reconstructed areas improve my knowledge?

I never suggested you visit "reconstructed areas", whatever you mean by that. I do suggest, however, that you educate yourself about some of the facts of the WW2 and Nazi Germany. If you visit what is left of the concentration camps it may make the subject more interesting for you and you would learn a lot. The camp at Dachau for example has an excellent educational museum attached.

joebhoy1916

vesp wrote:

Yes, if you know the slighest bit of history about the second world war you will know this is accepted fact.

Maybe accepted as fact but the fact is you dont know how many died If the number was six million or two million..

Fratton Fred

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Maybe accepted as fact but the fact is you dont know how many died If the number was six million or two million..

it's important, because 6 million is genocide and 2 million is just a bit of devilment right:rolleyes:

joebhoy1916

I'm not saying that.

He said six million jews were killed and that's fact but nobody know's how many were killed could be higher or lower.

Anyway's topic was did Dev want a united Ireland Id say he did back at 1916 them day's but maybe later I wouldn't say he was bothered.

Fratton Fred

From what I can deduce with my limited study of irish History, Dev wanted what was best for Dev and this has, I feal, shaped irish politics for the last 80 years.

silverharp

Fratton Fred wrote:

From what I can deduce with my limited study of irish History, Dev wanted what was best for Dev and this has, I feal, shaped irish politics for the last 80 years.

That sums up the impression of Dev I'm left with,

walrusgumble

no matter how great he was when he was great, he was more of a states man than a domestic politican, but yes, unfortunately ye are right about your opinions on dev.

i recently referred that maybe he was too busy dealing with the economy, another person made a good point that he could have time to deal with the north, which is true but. imo,

if you consider that unionist had a very good reason to stay within the union (their economy such as linen making, ship building etc) was far superior to our economy then

(our civil war destroyed alot of our roads/railway lines/bridges/power supply) and our economy was relied manily agriculture (which needed alot of updating) and small factorie such as jacobs and guiness. remeber most of the world saw our country back then as backward.

one thing for sure that was needed was to get this side of the country back on its feet before taking on another 2 million people. if you remember harlem and wolfe protested that they would go to scotland if ni left the union. this might be all well, it only one company but you must consider that it employed many citizens of belfast of all creds, (although preventing discrimination in the workplace was not the order of the day)

its all fine and well for a nation once again, but another when the young people immigrate and there is no one left to run the country

vesp

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Maybe accepted as fact but the fact is you dont know how many died If the number was six million or two million..

I know all right, the same as anyone who has basic knowledge of WW2. The fact is you do not know and do not care. Maybe you think it was two million and the other 4 million Jews who were in pre war Europe just disappeared or were abducted by aliens.

walrusgumble

vesp wrote:

I know all right, the same as anyone who has basic knowledge of WW2. The fact is you do not know and do not care. Maybe you think it was two million and the other 4 million Jews who were in pre war Europe just disappeared or were abducted by aliens.

whats has this got to do with dev and a united ireland. this is what this thread is about.after all dev remained in power for a long time after ww2.

for the last few weeks its all you are harping on about, especially in threads that are related to ireland. look if you want to talk about ww2 and the jews, by all means start a new thread, you will be interested to know some people will agree on your opinions. either way this thread is about irish issues which have never really been tackled. so leave your rants out .

incidently were you in the war or something, for all ye know there could have been over 10 million jews killed or indirectly killed. the way you go on, oh about the facts you know is like some snotty noise tw£t who is just out of trinity or ucd. why cant you disagree with people in a more effective manner without being so condensending. authors of history write events according to their interpretations, so you get one book saying eg 6 million and another saying 2

vesp

walrusgumble wrote:

so you get one book saying eg 6 million and another saying 2

It was mentioned because what was being discussed was Ireland neutrality during WW2.
What book says only 2 million ?

N.B walrusgumble ; please do not personally attack another poster