Which AGP Graphics Card?

Dark Chronicle

First time poster, so hello to everyone. I'm looking for a bit of help in deciding which AGP card I should go for, as my current card is not doing the business. I have heard that the Sapphire x1950Pro AGP 512Mb card is the best AGP card available, but cannot find an AGP version of it on either Dabs.ie or Komplett.ie. A friend has recommended the Nvidia 7600gs, which does look quite good. Any feedback or other recommendations would be great.

8T8

OcUK have the AGP X1950 Pro and it is the best AGP card you can get.

OcUK to deliver to Ireland as well.

As for the 7600GS if your on a budget it is a decent enough card but the 7600GT would be a better buy as you can get those in AGP as well. However the cost is higher & Komplett seem to be out of stock for all of them bar one of the more expensive ones.

The X1950 Pro is still a better buy at roughly €226.

Dark Chronicle

Thanks for the info 8T8. After a bit of research however, it's looking likely that I might be better off starting afresh with a completely new PC. I've been told my ancient(well 2 year old) dell dimension 8300 doesn't seem to be up to handling a power hungry card. The only thing that i've ever added was an extra 1GB of Ram, so I wouldn't like to shell out a lot of money on a new card only to find that my machine can't supply the power to run it. Does this sound like a possible scenario to you?

8T8

Unfortunately yes the Dell 8300 has a 250W PSU not suitable for an X1950 Pro.

However the 7600GS should still be okay to run with so you still have that option.

Dark Chronicle

Thanks again for the info 8T8. Looks like i'm going to have to replace the psu now as I have already ordered an AGP X1950 Pro from OCUK and it has already shipped :mad: Oh well... I have a Maplin store nearby and they have 570w psu's in stock at €59.99 so i'll get one picked up for me today and hope it fits ok with my 8300. I know they might not be the best quality, but i'll try it out anyway. Fingers crossed.

TerrorFirmer

Pretty much 90% of the stuff Maplin sell is absolute tat. You'd be better off going into PC World and paying the same price for a 400w Jeantech PSU then whatever brand is it Maplins are offering as '570w' but in all reality is probably nowhere near capable of meeting that.

Idleater

8T8 wrote:

Unfortunately yes the Dell 8300 has a 250W PSU not suitable for an X1950 Pro.

However the 7600GS should still be okay to run with so you still have that option.

Hey, Sorry to bump in here, but I am in the same/similar situation with a Dell 8300 and the standard fx5200 that came with it.

Between the 7600GS, the 7600GT and the 7800GS what is the real difference and which one is "better" given the cost differences (€123/€164/€270 respectively)?

I suppose the question I am asking is, is the 7800GS worth the extra ~€100 from the 7600GT?

P.S. Dark Chronicle, if you get to try the 1950, will you post back here if it is worth while getting seeing as I am in the same boat as yourself.

Cheers,

L.

Dark Chronicle

Appreciate the info Havok. Just got the 570w unit from Maplin in my hands and it does indeed look like utter crap. Plus the power cable socket is on the wrong side to fit correctly in my 8300. To give you an idea, if I were to fit it, the socket would be behind a panel(retarded case disign from dell)
But would this 400w Jeantech PSU have enough power to run this card? The power requirments on the box are listed at 450w minimum. This does sound like a lot...

Nereid: No prob, i'll let you know how the card handles(if I ever manage to get the damn thing installed...) :mad:

Dark Chronicle

Ok now i'm even more confused...
Just got off the phone with dell customer service, regarding upgrading my machine's PSU. According to dell my motherboard, which is an intel i875P(hope that makes sense) cannot take a psu higher then 300w. If this is the case, then all hopes of me getting my shiny new card working are gone. If someone has any info on if this is actually true, or if there is some way around this problem I would be extremely gratefull as I am at my wits end.

TerrorFirmer

What they probably mean is '300w is the highest rated psu we sell for that model'.

Alot of Dell parts are non-standard especially in their older machines. There are some American websites that sell Dell compatiable psu's though, maybe have a look for those.

As for working with the 250w psu for the moment, you'd get away with a 7600GS without too many problems.

Dell Psus are pretty good as well so you might scrape by without something slightly more powerful but don't risk too much.

What card are you using at the moment?

PS - I'm in a similar boat here, with a seconadry machine with an unreplacable 200w psu....;)

Dark Chronicle

I'm ashamed to say i'm currently using a 6200GS...:o

All my PC has ever really been used for is RTS gaming, so I never really needed a fantastic card. However, with games like dark messiah, company of heroes etc even though I have 1.5gb of ram, my card is seriously letting me down. I considered buying up some parts and building my own PC, but I guess I just hoped I could get another year out of my current system with this new card. And what a nightmare this is turning out to be...

8T8

nereid wrote:

I suppose the question I am asking is, is the 7800GS worth the extra ~€100 from the 7600GT?

No the 7800GS was terribly crippled & not worth the price it was offered at it is only marginally better than a 7600GT.

NVIDIA AGP cards:
7600GS good budget buy.
7600GT best NVIDIA buy for AGP system.
7800GS avoid.

ATI AGP cards:
X1650XT AGP versions of these are appearing same as 7600GT in performance.
X1950 Pro best AGP card you can buy new.

Idleater

8T8 wrote:

No the 7800GS was terribly crippled & not worth the price it was offered at it is only marginally better than a 7600GT.

Cheers, that is what I was thinking having read up a few reviews all right.

My only concern was with the 250w power supply on the Dell.

I went onto the dell forums and found someone there who had just installed a X1950 on the 250 stock power supply.

Dark Chronicle - have a read of this thread on dell support forums.

Most advice on those forums was that the cards "should" work because dell under rate their power supply and the card manufacturers overrate the power supply needed (because they factor in the "type of system" that would be used with a high power card)

L.

TheDrunkenBrain

8T8 is right, the 7800gs is a ridiculously crippled card for the price, with it's only real advantage being the 512mb option. The x1950 pro is the single best AGP card on the market, however it seems it's in short supply.

The 7600GT is a far superior card to the 7600gs imo.
This link will give u an insight into the raw numbers of both cards and you can also compare the x1950 pro and virtually any other card you wish.

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=435&card2=434

Dark Chronicle

Nereid: Thanks for posting that. However I received my Sapphire ATI Radeon X1950 Pro 512MB(AGP) this morning, and unfortunately it just would not work with the 250w standard psu that comes with my dell 8300. The card was just not receiving enough power. I don't think that poster on dell was telling the truth to be honest.
The problem upgrading the PSU on the dimension 8300 is that most new PSU's come with a power switch, and for some reason dell did not factor this into their older case design. There is only a hole in the case big enough for the power cable to be connected. This would be where I decided to make another hole in the back plate to accomodate a power switch with some good old home DIY....:D
Long story short, 500w PSU now fitted and working perfectly, but the card is still not connected up(took it out for fear of the psu damaging m/b and components etc when powered on for the first time if it wasn't compatible, yes I am a bit paranoid) Unfortunately I have had to go to work in the meantime, so I won't even get to check out the card till I get home to my own PC tomorrow morning. Will post as soon as i've had a chance to check it out. It had better be fantastic after all this hassle...

Idleater

Dark Chronicle wrote:

Long story short, 500w PSU now fitted and working perfectly,

Excellent stuff.

Post back after it either (a) works or (b) fries your machine and you have to go to a neighbour/work to post

If all is well, I might just do exactly that. Perhaps a 400-450w psu and then plonk in a 1950 or 7600gt.

Cheers.

L.

Dark Chronicle

Hello again. Just though i'd update you all on the Sapphire x1950Pro AGP 512mb, and the absolute nightmare it has been to get it working correctly :mad:
First off, let me just say that all the hassle has definitely been worth it, as I can now play any game I have(dark messiah, mark of chaos, company of heroes etc) with all settings turned up to the max, with no problems.
However, installation of the card is very buggy(at least it was for me), in particular the Catalyst Control Center which refused to run, so I could not change any settings such as AA, AF etc. After much research, I found that the latest version of .Net Framework(2.0) does not work correctly with the card for a lot of people. This is the version that is supplied with the card on the installation disc.
I would recommend for anyone encountering this problem after installing the card, to uninstall all ati related drivers, uninstall .Net Framework 2.0 and then start again fresh and follow these steps:

1) Ignore using the installation disc.

2) Download and install the 1.1 version of .Net Framework with it's service pack (needed for anyone using XP with SP2)

3) Run a program such as Driver Cleaner to make sure any old drivers are completely erased from your system.

4) Download and install the latest Drivers direct from www.ati.com.

Using the 1.1 version of .Net Framework was the ONLY way I could get the card to run correctly. As I found out there are a lot of people out there with this problem at the moment, and according to ati customer support, they are currently working on a fix for the card to work correctly with .Net Framework 2.0.

Finally, I hope that if anyone is encountering the same problems, that this post is some help to them, as I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through 3 DAYS of trying to fix their card like I did. Good luck.

8T8

The ATI CCC requires .NET framework 1.1 not 2.0 so if you did not have that on your system that is why it would not work.

2.0 isn't backwards compatible with 1.1 which is part of the issue that catches out some people.

Dark Chronicle

8T8: Yeah, found that out the hard way... :mad:

Unfontunately, for anyone going from a Nvidia card to ATI like myself, they are not doing anyone any favours by bundling .Net Framework 2.0 on the installation disk with the card, even though it clearly isn't compatible. The funny thing is that when I was installing the CCC with .NET Framework 1.1 installed, a pop up appeared recommending 2.0... :eek:

Still, it's definately the best AGP out there.

BadCharlie

I have the Nvidia 7800GS for the AGP. I have found it good all though people have pointed out that its crippled. Can't remeber what scores i got when i benchmarked it, just know i get 185fps average when running CS:S benchmark at 1280*1024 with everthing turned down low "low cause i dont care what the game looks like i just want to kill on line".

Anyways last night i was going to order the x1950pro cause all i have had with my video card since i bought it almost a year ago is problems. In the end i bought the x1950XT 256meg eddition. When this card arrives i prob send back my Nvidia.

I would have liked to have held off buying a new video card for a few months. As ATI will have released there next batch of cards by then.

P.S should add that my motherboard can take either PCI-E or AGP.

Snowrider

Dark C,

I've got the exact same system and problem as you had. Dell 8300 and I'm looking to upgrade to the Sapphire x1950 pro... I'm just wondering which power supply you bought to get it all working? I'm looking at doing the same thing that you have done... I have also looked at PC Power & Cooling who make a special power supply for Dell machines.. but it peaks at 450 W, with a rating of 23A at 12V on a single rail (not really sure what the rail means) I've heard that the specs on the sapphire box say 30A at 12V... I'm wondering if that is enough power for the x1950.

I don't know much about power supplies and making sure they match your motherboard... any help would be much appreciated!

Dark Chronicle

Snowrider: First off, I understand what you're going through, as Dell are idiots for designing their case the way they do.

The easiest solution I could recommend is to get a new case and PSU.

If you want to stick with your current case like I did, your main issue with the 8300 is finding a PSU with the power cable slot on the correct side(bottom left), as if will not fit correctly otherwise.

If you look at the back of your PC, if the PSU cooling fan is on top, and the power cable slot is on the bottom left, with no room next to it for a switch(as Dell's PSU have the switch removed), then you are looking at cutting a small section out to fit a switch which any 500w PSU will have, or removing the entire back panel.

The PSU that I fitted was a 500w Xpower PSU from Maplin that cost about €55. Now I know everyone is probably going to say that Maplin is crap, but it is working perfectly now for over a week with the card with no problems. I had to only cut a small section of the case to make room for the switch, and it's 2 large fans and power cable slot are ideally positioned to fit in your Dell.

I hope this helps you out.

Snowrider

Dark C:
Thanks for the info! much appreciated. I've done a whole heap of searching to figure out how to solve my problem and your post here has really helped out. I'm actually writing from Canada and I believe that our power connectors are quite a bit different then in Europe, but my case has the same problem. Only a small hole exists for the plug, there is no spot for a switch.

I would really like to make this old Dell case work. I am hoping to squeeze at least one more year out of the old Dell as I'm planning to build up a crazy gaming rig... but not just yet (those super rigs are expensive!).

I found a post somewhere that said there may be different power connectors on the mother board? It doesn't sound like you ran into that problem, maybe I'll just take my case down to the local geek shop and see if they can fit me with a nice 500W PSU, then i'll take it home and cut a hole in the back.

Out of curiosity, what did you use to cut the metal backing? a hack saw a dremel??

Thanks Dark, I'll let you know how it goes

Idleater

Sorry to bring this back up, but I have noticed another contender in the 7600GS vs the 7600gt:
7600GS 512MB DDR2, AGP8X, passive heatsink

Any opinion on what the passive heat sink would do for power requirements (given the 8300's 250w power supply)?

L.

uberpixie

nereid wrote:

Any opinion on what the passive heat sink would do for power requirements (given the 8300's 250w power supply)?

L.

Sod all.

Still will draw the same amount of power more or less.

Idleater

For the record,

I bought the 7600 and installed it.

Working fine with the stock dell 250w psu for the minute anyway. I checked the box to monitor temperature levels and warn me blah blah blah so hopefully it will work okay.

I haven't messed about with the "overclocking" options yet as I want to gradually check the card's stability in the system.

Impressed with the performance compared to the old 5200 which it replaced, and it runs games pretty smoothly. Presumably a pci express 7800 or whatever would put it to shame but that's for another day.

L.

8T8

nereid wrote:

For the record,

I bought the 7600 and installed it.

Working fine with the stock dell 250w psu for the minute anyway. I checked the box to monitor temperature levels and warn me blah blah blah so hopefully it will work okay.

I haven't messed about with the "overclocking" options yet as I want to gradually check the card's stability in the system.

Impressed with the performance compared to the old 5200 which it replaced, and it runs games pretty smoothly. Presumably a pci express 7800 or whatever would put it to shame but that's for another day.

L.

I would not push your luck overclocking a GPU without an active fan that is just asking for trouble.

Good to hear it worked out for anyway it is certainly a step up over the FX5200 line which where just a poor line overall.

The PCI-Express interface doesn't contribute that much to performance but it is where all the current GPU's can be found but you would need to gut your system just to switch to PCI-e so you would probably be better off just getting a new PC in the long run.

Snowrider

Hey Dark,

Just wanted to let you know I've updated my computer with a 550W power supply and the x1950 is running like a champ!

I cut the hole out in the back of the case with a dremmel.. no problems!

Thanks for your help... it really helped me out!

TerrorFirmer

nereid wrote:

For the record,

I bought the 7600 and installed it.

Working fine with the stock dell 250w psu for the minute anyway. I checked the box to monitor temperature levels and warn me blah blah blah so hopefully it will work okay.

I haven't messed about with the "overclocking" options yet as I want to gradually check the card's stability in the system.
L.

I wouldn't overclock a passively cooled card unless it truly was an excellent model. Also regarding the psu, generally speaking you can easily get by well under the recommended psu requirements as long as its a decent psu and you don't have too much hooked up inside. I'm currently running a 6600 on a 200w psu and so far, it's running perfectly fine in games despite the standard 'minimum 300w rating' tag.

Dark Chronicle

Hey Snowrider,

Happy to help. I'm glad to hear things worked out for you.

I've yet to find a game that I can't run on the top settings with this card!

Happy Gaming!!!!!