Broadband/WiFi Access on Trains

pointofnoreturn

Hi All,

I don't post hear much but for the past few months i was part of a Group in College to start up a mock business, and we decide on Internet access on trains, at first i thought 3G cards in laptops would be as close as your could get. But until we researched further and discovered it's been a norm in Rail transport through Europe! And it's on just about every route short or long!.

For instance check out GNER in Scotland and England
http://www.gner.co.uk/GNER/MobileOffice/
And in Germany, France, Sweden have been providing Broadband Access on all !! Their rail services for the past 2 years!

We don't even have onboard power for laptops etc.!

And we hear about all this Transport 21 and all the great things it hopes to bring.
CIE would want to seriously rethink their whole strategy of the services in transport!
Yet again, I lose more and more faith in this country!

P.S Happy New year!

embraer170

And in Germany, France, Sweden have been providing Broadband Access on all !! Their rail services for the past 2 years!

I wonder what trains I was taking in France / Germany over the past two years... :rolleyes:

Re. France / Germany / Belgium / Holland, there's only a single Thalys test set with onboard internet.

I however agree with you on power ports.

Zoney

pointofnoreturn wrote:

We don't even have onboard power for laptops etc.!

Most of the country still doesn't have broadband access from a fixed location, nevermind a train...

parsi

I expect most folks would prefer time/effort to be expended on having a reliable train service with seats than the ability to use broadband whilst zooming through Templemore.

3G coverage is very patchy on the Cork - Dublin route and obviously Vodafone have decided that the usage doesn't warrant the expense of covering the lines.

1huge1

^^ I did read somewere though that someone was on the maynooth-conolly line and they were using a 3 data card with HSPDA and it worked perfect

as for 3G reception o the Dublin line from what I remember a fair bit of it is 3G but their are some big patches in the middle (cough cough tipperary)

Idleater

embraer170 wrote:

Re. France / Germany / Belgium / Holland, there's only a single Thalys test set with onboard internet.

eh no, and no.


L.

MarkoP11

What would you rather

IE spend a large 5 or 6 figure sum on fitting complex telecommunications system into trains for the use of a tiny fraction of the traveling public, bear in mind standard class will have to pay anyway to use such. And remember its state funds

Or would you rather spend the money on say customer service training? or spent on minor engineering, safety or reliability works with resulting real benefits to the passenger?

The UK is split GNER have gone with it. GNER is fairly unique in that average journey per passenger is 150 miles, the greatest average in the UK. Great Western have decided not to given a 78 mile average trip, the view being Blackberry devices are the the way to go

Longest possible journey in Ireland is 202 miles, GNER 550 miles + try London Inverness

If you need a internet fix get a bluetooth 3G or GPRS phone, bluetooth equipped laptop set up a data connection. WiMax is coming so it should be possible to have real broadband on the move in the next few years

Having walked through several Dublin Cork trains in recent months, the majority use of laptops is to watch movies, batteries survive to trip

And Dublin Cork all first class seats have power sockets under the table and in standard there is a pair of sockets for seats 5 and 6 in all coaches

Its not in the interests of passengers given current poor service standards to invest in gadets, passenger numbers are up 10% in 2006 so its not a issue, it will become a issue in the medium term once the trains run on time and you can get a seat but thats a long way off

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.gner.co.uk/GNER/MobileOffice/cost.htm

We are pleased to offer WiFi free to all passengers travelling in First Class. Once your laptop has established a connection (see User Guide), you can get online straight away.

Passengers travelling in Standard Class can purchase blocks of internet time for a small fee. The costs are as follows:

30 minutes - £2.95
60 minutes (1 hour) - £4.95
120 minutes (2 hours) - £7.95
unlimited 24 hours access - £9.95

so pointofnoreturn how much are you prepared to pay for WiFi ?

for any regular commuter the 3G services are cheaper and usable in far more places, so the service would really only benefit occasional users and it's difficult to see how it would be economic. Let's face it a lot of the commuters probably don't have broadband at home which makes 3G look even more attractive. And with the amount of single line track we have, ( it would be nice to have dual track on the Drogheda bridge for example ), and the fact that WiFi may not be a lot of use unless you can get a seat with a table more spaces may be needed first.

MarkoP11

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

and the fact that WiFi may not be a lot of use unless you can get a seat with a table more spaces may be needed first.

You actually get more space on the seat back tables and the ones on the Dublin Cork train are very sturdy, tried it before Christmas no problem

In the UK normally you have 80-90 first class seats at a premium price which bankrolls the gadets, greater distances as well. First is still a novelty beyond Dublin Cork/Belfast here

If all you want to do is read your email any modern mobile supports GPRS find a way of hooking it to a laptop eg Bluetooth or USB and you are off, slow but fine for email and you pay by the byte transfered not by time. Or get a 3G phone and do the same avoiding the need for extra complexity and cost. If you need access badly that you can't cope without it you will already have this figured

2 or 3 years from now WiMax will hit and we will have broadband everywhere while on the move

dowlingm

MarkoP11 - you're assuming IE should bear the responsibility for creating the network - not necessary. On VIA Rail it's pay per use, not free - hourly or daily or monthly. The service provider Opti-Fi is a US firm which does airports too. One router in first and one probably in the last/2nd last standard as well as station 1st class lounges.

http://www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/Home/News.asp?id=37628

If you could get Vodafone or Eircom to provide the service and give you a cut without you spending a bob except some advertising, why not? If IE wanted to build a loyalty scheme like VIA Preference they could offer one hour free internet as VIA did for me which is how I ended up trying it out. It won't d/l mp3s but it'll certainly allow usual browsing - I was connected solidly for a half hour to our VPN including (slow) webmail.

Start with Belfast line, then Cork, Galway, Limerick. With a data connection you can then think about other services like LCD screens with news headlines, weather etc., maybe even connection news.

http://www.onestopmediagroup.com/images/gallery/gallery_l_osninterface.jpg

Imagine it - LCD screen says "Next station Limerick Junction - estimated arrival 2010. Connection for Limerick and Ennis will leave at 2020, connection for stations to Clonmel will be delayed until 2040"

parsi

dowlingm wrote:

Imagine it - LCD screen says "Next station Limerick Junction - estimated arrival 2010. Connection for Limerick and Ennis will leave at 2020, connection for stations to Clonmel will be delayed until 2040"

20 year wait for next connection

I use a Blackberry which does the job perfectly when travelling. Last time I went to Dublin I brought the laptop as well (mainly to try out my 3G card) and to be honest found it a less than optimal experience . I wonder what is the demand out there for paid-WiFi on the move - in the UK airports the T-mobile hotspot locations don't ever seem to be overrun with customers whereas in Douglas Court you see rakes of people using the free wifi..

Another issue with equipment on trains is who resolves the inevitable connection issues - I can't imagine the checker doing it !

1huge1

ya i thought that he meant 20years too but then i thought he probably meant it as 20:10hrs then again maybe not
i agree though news headlines like that would be very handy

dowlingm

2040 works either way I suppose

pointofnoreturn

Hi all, I can see their is a lot more important services Irish Rail need to improve before they would think about onboard broadband. But like your all say, their is not enough effective development in the rail network today!. Sure look at Dublin Airport. Still no rail link to it!. The one thing the Government don't seem to understand is you need to build your infrastructure first and then people use it and will build from that! i.e
Public transport badly needs to get more punctual, on time, no delays or service interruptions. If they don’t address this. Then no one can rely on it! Also they need to look at the bigger picture. We need to advance rapidly on transport technology, it’s no good just a small improvement on the current system. Look to modern centrally Europe and their standards. Ok numbers are greater and longer journey but Ireland as a hole needs! To be seen as a well spread out city!

I don’t think building hundreds of new roads is the solution! Public transport is the way everyone will travel.

Chris_533976

dowlingm wrote:

Eircom to provide the service and give you a cut

Sorry but that made me laugh

dowlingm

IE have already gone down this road - Esat threw them money to run cable down their lines. IE got burned a bit when Esat screwed up the cable laying but you'd like to think they'd have learned (dangerous assumption with IE, I know).

If I were running IE I would invite comms companies (yes even Eircom) to give proposals to provide wifi on board with them doing all the work and providing a fixed cut + a % of the take and if they don't like it then don't bother. Sure people can buy HSPDA cards etc. but that's one more thing to figure out and buy a card for whereas most laptops now come with wireless cards/centrino chipsets, plus data isn't free on most cell plans.

The interesting thing I think is that VIA/Opti's solution as I understand it is that integrates various comms options such as wireless cell data and satellite onboard depending on which is best in a given location plus probably DSL for the station wifi but delivered to the user through a single channel - 802.11.

Slice

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=MORE+COMPUTER+NEWS-qqqm=nav-qqqid=19953-qqqx=1.asp

From the Sunday Business Post, Computers In Business supplement:

Iarnrod Eireann holds out for Wimax

07 January 2007 By Dan O'Grady

Last year, several English and European rail networks extended on-board internet services for those needing to work en route to their destination. So what hope for Iarnród Eireann?

What has actually happened is that a decision has been made not to opt for wi-fi. Iarnród Eireann has argued that it will become obsolete, to be replaced with Wimax. As the name suggests, Wimax is essentially a supercharged version of wi-fi.

It offers much higher speeds and a much greater transmission distance. So whereas with wi-fi you would need to have a communications device in each train carriage, with Wimax you only need one along every 70 or so kilometres of track.

It also offers much stronger encryption and as the signal is stronger it is less subject to interference. The only Wimax service currently on offer at present is Irish Broadband's ‘Go' service.

Costing €40 per month, this connects to a speed of 0.5Mbs (see connections panel opposite).

While this technology is not yet common, there are over 170 trial deployments in many different countries. It is hotly tipped to be successful and then Iarnród Eireann will seek tenders for the introduction of the technology to the Irish rail network.

An alternative option while commuters wait until new technology is introduced is to purchase a mobile connect card. This will allow you to connect to the internet from any location. The drawbacks however are its slower speed (see connections panel).

In addition, the signal is subject to coverage and there is very little information available on the signal's ability to seek out a receiver travelling at 90mph.

MarkoP11

MarkoP11 wrote:

If you need a internet fix get a bluetooth 3G or GPRS phone, bluetooth equipped laptop set up a data connection. WiMax is coming so it should be possible to have real broadband on the move in the next few years

Physic or what ?

In addition, the signal is subject to coverage and there is very little information available on the signal's ability to seek out a receiver travelling at 90mph.

GSM, GPRS and there related systems where designed for at most walking pace operation they really hate very fast objects, network operators had to implement changes to recognise fast moving users in the network. 3G assuming its the CDMA version is much better

The fact IE have a deal with Esat/BT makes no difference since guess what O2 (formally esat digifone) don't have a 3G licence they can't provide the service. The terms of the agreement stuck in the mid 1990's most likely preclude IE from using their fibre bundle for commerical gain its use is restricted to internal network, phones, CTC and SSI data links

dowlingm

MarkoP11 - sorry, having read that again I see I was a bit vague there - the reference to Esat was only in a "working with private firms" way not that IE could leverage the fibre, although I wonder if such an agreement had a timeframe as a total ban seems like bad negotiation. Again, we are talking about IE so...

As for waiting for WiMax - that's nice but you need to buy an additional card since so far as I know nobody is selling 802.16e equipment yet - there are tens of thousands of 802.11a/b/g laptops right now. Better to have a router in the train dealing with GPRS/HSPDA/WiMax and handing the data off to the 802.11 laptops onboard. The pre-WiMax network launching in Canada uses modems which require external power - is there in-seat power in all CAF classes if early WiMax also requires this?

The ability to work and communicate onboard is a key differentiator against Aer Arann and Ryanair. IE should have had it ready to roll with the Mark 4s and loads of testing could have been done while the test trains were running. An opportunity is being lost I think, not just to promote rail but also to generate revenue for IE, since users won't need an IE solution by the time they rollout WiMax since they will probably use non-IE WiMax at home too.

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

The fact IE have a deal with Esat/BT makes no difference since guess what O2 (formally esat digifone) don't have a 3G licence they can't provide the service.

FYI, O2 do have a 3G licence and have already launched a high speed HSDPA service. Meteor are currently the only mobile phone company without a 3G licence and they are expected to get the one that Comreg took away from Smart Telecom.

A WiMax point/tower every 70km is pushing it, but one every 10km or so would work just fine and about 20 could cover the entire Cork to Dublin line.

They could use the Esat fibre along the tracks or even use a wireless mesh network with wireless backhaul between each of the WiMax towers (many mobile phone masts actually work this way).

Rollout costs would be relatively low, however I do forsee a problem for IR. Will they roll this out just themselves (charging something like €10 per trip for net access) or will this be a part of some bigger ISP's national network.

If it is the former and can't be used outside of the train network, then it is doomed to fail. Within 3 years the high speed HSDPA 3G networks will cover most of the country.

Already Vodafone is offering 3.8mb BB with 5GB cap for €40 per month and 3 Ireland expect to cover 80% of the country by mid 2007. With 02 and Meteor to enter the market and competition from other wireless companies, these prices will fall and eventually they will cover most of the train network (in particular busy routes like Dublin-Cork as it would be a major selling point for the phone company). As a business person would you rather pay €30 - 40 for wireless BB almost anywhere in the country (including trains) at anytime or €10 per train journey?

dowlingm

I guess the main problem is that the wireless phone companies wouldn't see the need to accommodate wimax if you could use a USB cord to connect to your HSPDA Blackberry IP modem for instance assuming any kind of decent downlink was available with a carriage full of phones squawking at each passing cell at 200km/h in the twin power car era we all know is coming. :rolleyes:

Somebody like a satellite internet+dsl provider with no wireless licence might be a more interested partner I suppose.

pointofnoreturn

dowlingm wrote:

MarkoP11 - sorry, having read that again I see I was a bit vague there - the reference to Esat was only in a "working with private firms" way not that IE could leverage the fibre, although I wonder if such an agreement had a timeframe as a total ban seems like bad negotiation. Again, we are talking about IE so...

As for waiting for WiMax - that's nice but you need to buy an additional card since so far as I know nobody is selling 802.16e equipment yet - there are tens of thousands of 802.11a/b/g laptops right now. Better to have a router in the train dealing with GPRS/HSPDA/WiMax and handing the data off to the 802.11 laptops onboard. The pre-WiMax network launching in Canada uses modems which require external power - is there in-seat power in all CAF classes if early WiMax also requires this?

The ability to work and communicate onboard is a key differentiator against Aer Arann and Ryanair. IE should have had it ready to roll with the Mark 4s and loads of testing could have been done while the test trains were running. An opportunity is being lost I think, not just to promote rail but also to generate revenue for IE, since users won't need an IE solution by the time they rollout WiMax since they will probably use non-IE WiMax at home too.

Very true, that’s the drift I’m after. Onboard internet access should be hear as well as a whole pill of other services. IE need to accommodate for all passengers, be it infrequent or everyday business customers. It’s no good talking about "we might and we'll see what the rest of the world will do!, Ah sure isn’t their 3G cards now that yah can get" if they have this idea, they won't do anything until 3G operators just make it more affordably. By then our rail network will still! Be years behind!

Simply IE have no interest in providing improved services. They’ll just talk about it! If they work towards building a central European standard rail network. Then and only then you will see commuters move from the car to the rail!

Solair

There is only in-seat power in CityGold coaches (1 per train)

Other than that, there's only power unofficially available via sockets at the end of each coach in 2 seats.

You may pick up a WiFi signal in one of the coaches, but don't worry this isn't for public use. It's "train to station" WiFi which is used to update the seat reservation system's lables etc.

To be honest, I don't really see the need for WiFi on the trains. The problem is the backhaul. GNER's WiFi is notoriously slow and patchy as it has to rely on 3G phones, satellite and falls back onto GPRS if none is available.

I think we're about to see some very revolutionary HSPDA (Very high speed 3G or 3.5G) products hit the market in the next 12 months or so. WiFi could yet become about as popular as payphones.

O2, 3, Vodafone and a couple of non Mobile phone companies are promising very high speed mobile broadband.

Iarnrod Eireann rolled out "in-seat payphones" in CityGold years ago
Right before the mobile phone revolution.

WiFi in trains may also become more economically viable once 3G networks become more widespread too. You could have WiFi on the train backhauling the data to HSPDA mobile networks.

Hacketry

Question for the commuters:

Is there any basic infrastructure that IE should really integrate into its new rolling stock to future proof them for technology and communications needs?

Power points at every table is a given I suppose, but anything else?

antoinolachtnai

I would say, some sort of interlink between carriages to carry data, so only one uplink is required for the whole train.

It might make sense to have some sort of space for radomes on the roof.

ethernet sockets at every seat might make sense, but probably not.

really, the big thing that could be done though, would be to install something like FON hotspots on every station for the use of people on the platform and on the train. This would be very inexpensive to do.

A Dub in Glasgo

Maybe IE (or the Government) should consider rolling out GSM-R and provide the necessary infrastructure for on board comms for passengers

John R

Solair wrote:

To be honest, I don't really see the need for WiFi on the trains. The problem is the backhaul. GNER's WiFi is notoriously slow and patchy as it has to rely on 3G phones, satellite and falls back onto GPRS if none is available.

It is a selling point for them over the airlines who are their main competition.

It will be interesting to see how well it copes in a few months time as the newly appointed franchise operator National Express have announced that they are scrappint the charges to make WiFi free in both first and standard class.

antoinolachtnai

It's an awful lot of expense to provide a fairly marginal service.

bk

CIE should really have put power points in every seat in the new carriages.

Wifi isn't really necessary as most business travellers will have the new HSDPA 3G service.

However users always need power and the one major selling point of taking the trains over car on the new faster intercity motorways is being able to work or watch DVD's on the train. So it was extremely short sighted of CIE in not putting power in all seats.

KC61

bk wrote:

CIE should really have put power points in every seat in the new carriages.

Wifi isn't really necessary as most business travellers will have the new HSDPA 3G service.

However users always need power and the one major selling point of taking the trains over car on the new faster intercity motorways is being able to work or watch DVD's on the train. So it was extremely short sighted of CIE in not putting power in all seats.

Each of the new 189 coaches currently being delivered for the services between Dublin and Sligo, Rosslare, Galway, Westport, Waterford, Limerick and Tralee is coming with powerpoints at every seat.

bk

KC61 wrote:

Each of the new 189 coaches currently being delivered for the services between Dublin and Sligo, Rosslare, Galway, Westport, Waterford, Limerick and Tralee is coming with powerpoints at every seat.

Arggh, but not on their recently purchased carriages, on the supposedly premium Cork to Dublin line :mad:

spacetweek

bk wrote:

Arggh, but not on their recently purchased carriages, on the supposedly premium Cork to Dublin line :mad:

KC61, what's the explanation in the light of the above?

Does Dub-Belfast have power points?

highlydebased

Do the new trains they have aquired not have laptop power sockets? It would seem fitting that they would......seeing as they were supposed to be "modern"

KC61

spacetweek wrote:

KC61, what's the explanation in the light of the above?

Does Dub-Belfast have power points?

Neither the Mark 4 stock on Dublin-Cork nor the De Dietrich stock on Dublin-Belfast are equipped with powerpoints at seats.

The exception is first class on the mark 4 stock.

The new Intercity railcars (189 coaches) that are being delivered currently (to be used on all other radial intercity routes) and are under test have a powerpoint at each seat. This was the first rolling stock that Dick Fearn (CEO IÉ) had control over the spec and you can and will see the difference in these coaches.

John R

spacetweek wrote:

KC61, what's the explanation in the light of the above?

I suppose it is just that there was about 2 years between the Dub-Cork stock order and the IC railcars.

They obviously gave it some thought as they included them in first class but not standard, a very poor decision and obviously when they were ordering the railcars it was clear that power points are becoming considered basic for any medium-long distance stock.

spacetweek wrote:

Does Dub-Belfast have power points?

No. Remember that they are now 12 years old.

Victor

Hacketry wrote:

Question for the commuters: Is there any basic infrastructure that IE should really integrate into its new rolling stock to future proof them for technology and communications needs?

Some subway systems have underground antenae, so you can continue your phone conversation. This might be useful, not just on Metro and Interconnector, but also any other part of the system in a cutting. Blackrock - Glenageary is difficult with a mobile phone.

Power points at every table is a given I suppose, but anything else?

On Intercity and regional services sure, but not on commuter services.

spacetweek

Sorry about the OT but I'm just taking the opportunity while we're talking about the spec of the new rolling stock. Does anyone know if you'll be able to take bikes on the new (Sligo/Rosslare etc.) stock? I was shocked to learn recently that this isn't available on the Dublin-Cork stock.

MarkoP11

All train's carrying the intercity logo can carry bikes, they all have at least one socket as well

Dublin Cork can carry bikes

Dublin Sligo/Rosslare will carry bikes once the new trains enter service

Demonique

Who gives a crap about wifi on trains/buses? I'd much rather have later running trains and buses

Terrontress

Demonique wrote:

Who gives a crap about wifi on trains/buses? I'd much rather have later running trains and buses

Nice, eloquent post.