Dangerous animals legislation

racso1975

^^^^^just like going through my prents divorce again

peasant

racso1975 wrote:

^^^^^just like going through my prents divorce again

LOL

seriously though ....

This is not a "high horse" I'm flogging to death here ... it's a matter of principle.

Basic right or wrong.

It is wrong (morally/ethically) to blame an innocent dog for the actions/omissions of its irresponsible owner. There is no such thing as an inherently dangerous dog, they were all made to be that way. Be that through bad breeding, bad training or sheer malice ...but in every case through human intervention. So don't blame the innocent animal, blame the guilty breeder, owner, consumer ...whatever.

Suggesting a blanket muzzling of all dogs on the other hand is not wrong ...that's just daft.

Sorry jules ...but it is.





and so to bed ....

FranknFurter

Peasant,
Just fyi, with a properly fitting muzzle a dog can easilly drink, bark, pant and sniff. Most muzzles you buy in a pet shop are designed to allow this.

B

Illkillya

Kojak wrote:

Alsations wouldn't make good guide dogs - they are 2 excitable. In my experience, I haven't seen too many that are guide dogs, its always labradors.

I have a neighbour who owns 2 alsations and who never puts a muzzle on them. There's no need as they are harmless, but that only them 2 - I can see why these dogs need to have muzzles, leads etc.

Why aren't collies (i.e. sheep dogs) required to wear muzzles?? - these dogs can be as vicious (or more so) than many on the list above.

I know a blind man who has always had alsations and the two that I have seen were both extremely well behaved, calm and intelligent - excellent guide dogs.

peasant

FranknFurter wrote:

Peasant,
Just fyi, with a properly fitting muzzle a dog can easilly drink, bark, pant and sniff. Most muzzles you buy in a pet shop are designed to allow this.

B

err ...no ...

In a pet shop you usually get:

1) the leather strap contraption
While this usually allows the nose to be unobstructed and therefore enables sniffing, in order to do its job, it is so tight that it prevents the full opening of the snout and therefore proper barking, eating, drinking and panting.

2) the wire mesh "basket thingy"
Here you get full panting and barking, but no direct contact ...hence no proper sniffing (as in sticking the nose right into it), no feeding and no drinking (at all)

3) the fabric "snout balaclava"
Sniffing is ok, but thats's about it. The rest is seriously hampered. Plus it gets hot and saliva collects inside.

All three of them are manufactured to fit as many dogs as possible, so they never fit an individual dog properly and chafe and cause discomfort.

Most importantly ...all three af them (all muzzles) prevent a dog from expressing itself (towards other dogs) via facial expressions. In some case the facial "disfigurement" of the dog wearing the muzzle will actually cause other dogs that meet it to get aggressive, and the dog wearing the muzzle cannot send the usual calming signals (licking of snout) and will be attacked.


Muzzles are to be used short term/short time only. During a visit to the vets with a known "snappy" dog for example.

Gillie

I'm with Peasant on this folks.
I have already stated that I have a GSD.
He is on a lead when ppl/other dogs are around. I have never muzzled him and I won't.
I consider myself a responsible Dog Owner Jules!
I will not "punish" my dogs because of some sadistic or stupid owners out there who mistreat/can't handle/don't train there dogs.
That I believe is the underlying issue.
Rant over!

Jules

where are people getting the plain silly idea that putting a muzzle on a dog is punishment! a lot of the time a muzzle can help to calm a dog. People will you see the bigger picture here, this is about preventing dogs who have stupid owners, not saying that anyone here is one of those said owners, from doing something that could get them pts and well in all fairness as FF has said you can get proper fitting muzzles, no matter what our resident expert, peasant, says!

TequilaMockingBird

As a person who is absolutley terrified of dogs (one of those lovely German Shepherds snapped at me as a child), my life would change if all dogs were muzzled. I've unfortuanetly passed this fear onto my child, which is such a shame, but I think its better she's wary than think its a cute little doggy she can cuddle. (Obviously I don't want her to ever be scared) We walk an extra mile to school to avoid an area where I have seen loose dogs. It really restricts your life.

Also, people who put their dogs on a lead as soon as they see someone around, its too LATE - if its me, I've already had a near cardiac moment! If I had any power left in my limbs, you could imagine what I would say to the twats who say "ah he won't touch you".

I know my fears are extreme, but they came about because of someone not controlling their dog properly.

Muzzle the dogs outside, let them be natural dogs in the security of your own land/property - not the land we all have to try and share.

peasant

jules80 wrote:

People will you see the bigger picture here, this is about preventing dogs who have stupid owners, not saying that anyone here is one of those said owners, from doing something that could get them pts

Would you please (ffs) get it into your head, that it's EXACTLY those owners who won't muzzle their dogs anyway ...no way ... no matter what the law (or Jules80) says ?

Instead you'd have every responsible person muzzle their dog ...precicesly those dogs that don't need to be.

All credit to your enthusiasm and your concern for dogs that may or may not be put down eventually ...just THINK for a minute what exactly you are proposing here.

As I've said before, this whole "dangerous dog" legislation is a farce. It is not the dog that's dangerous, it's the owner. It's like in the dark ages, where black cats were burned at the stake for witchcraft.


@sueme

whereabouts are you from?

If you're anyway near the Northwest, I'd only be too happy to meet up with you, so that you could get to know (under controlled conditions and at your terms) one to three absolute people dogs who love nothing more than charming their way into stranger's hearts.

Maybe this could help you overcome your fear a bit?

oldjovifan

I have already stated that I have a GSD.
He is on a lead when ppl/other dogs are around. I have never muzzled him and I won't.
I consider myself a responsible Dog Owner Jules!
I will not "punish" my dogs because of some sadistic or stupid owners out there who mistreat/can't handle/don't train there dogs.


I have to agree with Gillie!
I have two GSD pups aged 6 months and have had a previous dog before who wouldnt have hurt a fly. Whilst I can appreciate the fear people have over these issues, not everyone is an irresponsible owner and therefore their dogs should not be punished. its the old saying"do not tar everyone with the same brush".
I have my dogs, microchipped, insured and licenced and keep them on leads when out in public but let them run off when up in a place where no-one is around.
I am afraid that once people start handing in dogs under these amnesty rules to be destroyed voluntarily to avoid prosecution, where will the madness end? which breed do they chose next?

Gillie

oldjovifan wrote:

I have my dogs, microchipped, insured and licenced and keep them on leads when out in public but let them run off when up in a place where no-one is around.

Well done. That's better than most you know!
I know a guy who jogs in a big wood near me. His Rottie jogs alongside him.
If he comes across anyone yer man lets out the classic "ah he won't touch ya!".
Now that IS wrong! This dog is a monster! You have to at least put him on a lead!?! I always put my pooch on the lead if there are ppl or other dogs around. If other ppl with pooches don't do the same when they see you - what do you do then?

At this stage I know where I can go and not meet anyone. Suits me fine.

doctor evil

But how do you know that there is no other amenity user coming around the corner like walker/dog walker/jogger/cyclist/horse rider etc.

peasant

doctor evil wrote:

But how do you know that there is no other amenity user coming around the corner like walker/dog walker/jogger/cyclist/horse rider etc.

You don't ...and that's why you call your dog towards you, when there is a corner or something that you can't see around and you let the dog run again, once you can see for yourself that there's no-one around. Simple.

Gillie

peasant wrote:

You don't ...and that's why you call your dog towards you, when there is a corner or something that you can't see around and you let the dog run again, once you can see for yourself that there's no-one around. Simple.

Took the words right outta my mouth!
Trust me dr. evil. The places I go, i know like the back of my hand. Every corner and blind spot there is! I take precaution but not too much either!
I want him to enjoy his walk and not have me screaming at him every two seconds!

deaddonkey

Kojak wrote:

Alsations wouldn't make good guide dogs - they are 2 excitable. In my experience, I haven't seen too many that are guide dogs, its always labradors.

That's why GSDs are one of the 3 breeds used as guide dogs for the blind. 15% of guide dogs used by the Guide Dogs of America are german shepherds. Britain's first guide dogs were german shepherds.

Obviously too exciteable for police work where excellent discipline and temperament is required. If you don't know what you're talking about at all, then don't talk at all.

*smirk*

I have a german shepherd, she's 17 months now, rescue pup.
I keep her on a lead when I feel I can't control her without the lead, which is rare. If I tell her to come, she comes, if i tell her heel, she walks to heel. She isn't aggressive. She gets on great with my other dog (a tiny jack russel cross). Loves meeting new people, and is very calm and quiet and gentle with kids. She goes to the pub with me and sits under the table - she's quite simply not even slightly a dangerous dog. The law can go to hell.

Dangerous dogs legislation is bull****, and i'm not supporting it by muzzling my pup because of her breed. It's dog racism - if we said the same thing for having to cross the road when we see a muslim because they *might* blow us up there'd be public outcry.

My responsbility as a dog owner is that my dog is under control and doesn't hassle anyone. I make sure of that. I pick up her poop. I'm responsible.

But I am not responsible for other people's fear and misconceptions about my dog's breed - it's not my problem people are afraid of shepherds/rotties/staffies etc

I don't care what the law says, I'm not muzzling my dog or putting her on a lead when she doesn't need to be.

For what it's worth, I work in a vets, I meet hundreds of dogs a month, and only a very tiny proportion are bad tempered dogs. None of the dogs I've met so far that have been aggressive have been legally classified as dangerous dogs.

There are no dangerous breeds - there are individual bad tempered dogs with bad nerves, and there are dogs that have bad tempers due to how they've been brought up, but breed specific legislation is a ****in' joke.

As a person who is absolutley terrified of dogs (one of those lovely German Shepherds snapped at me as a child), my life would change if all dogs were muzzled. I've unfortuanetly passed this fear onto my child, which is such a shame, but I think its better she's wary than think its a cute little doggy she can cuddle. (Obviously I don't want her to ever be scared) We walk an extra mile to school to avoid an area where I have seen loose dogs. It really restricts your life.

Also, people who put their dogs on a lead as soon as they see someone around, its too LATE - if its me, I've already had a near cardiac moment! If I had any power left in my limbs, you could imagine what I would say to the twats who say "ah he won't touch you".

That's not a dog owner's problem, that's your problem. The owner has the dog under control, he/she doesn't need to do anything else just because you're afraid of it. You can't blame the owner's of a calm friendly dog because you're afraid.

I have not made other people\s fears my responsibility and I won't make it my responsibility. Get a grip.

I have never, ever met an aggressive dobermann/rottie/german shepherd/staffie

ever.

here's a link to a picture of my badly behaved aggressive, inherently dangerous, hyperactive pup with her best mate.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c334/deaddonkey/pipsandmags.jpg

deaddonkey

Gillie wrote:

Well done. That's better than most you know!
I know a guy who jogs in a big wood near me. His Rottie jogs alongside him.
If he comes across anyone yer man lets out the classic "ah he won't touch ya!".
Now that IS wrong! This dog is a monster! You have to at least put him on a lead!?! I always put my pooch on the lead if there are ppl or other dogs around. If other ppl with pooches don't do the same when they see you - what do you do then?

At this stage I know where I can go and not meet anyone. Suits me fine.

are you presuming the dog is a monster because of his breed? it sure sounds like it. Has the dog been aggressive to you? Has it attacked your dog?

I repeat, NO breed is inherently aggressive.

Band the deed, not the breed etc.

fits

Well said dead donkey. Some of the best trained dogs I've met have been GSDs. They seem to have very trainable temperaments.

The lady who has the canine phobia should seek help to conquer it rather than expecting every dog owner to muzzle their dogs and therefore compromise their welfare.

lovely dogs dead donkey.

deaddonkey

thanks. the shepherd is a rescue, had her 6 months or so, the jack rusell/daxie cross is a stray that followed me home one day. smart and trainable, but very, very stubborn and not too good at listening to me, so he's always on the lead unless i'm on the beach or something.
i love them to bits though.

TequilaMockingBird

Hi Peasant, thanks so much for your offer, I am in the North West and would definitely be interested in a little dog training (for me!). I had dogs as a child so its daft that because of that incident with a german sheperd (not that it matters what type of dog it was), that I'm so scared. Appreciate your offer.

As for Deaddonkey, wouldn't bother commenting on his/her views. The post gives us all the information we need of the kind of dog owner he/she is.

peasant

Sueme

Just pm me once the weather lends itself a bit more towards outdoor activities

deaddonkey

sueme wrote:

As for Deaddonkey, wouldn't bother commenting on his/her views. The post gives us all the information we need of the kind of dog owner he/she is.

yep. one that doesn't pander to the affections of other people who don't like my dog. A responsible one that keeps his dog under control.

trust me, i can live with that.

peasant

deaddonkey wrote:

Dangerous dogs legislation is bull****, and i'm not supporting it by muzzling my pup because of her breed. It's dog racism - if we said the same thing for having to cross the road when we see a muslim because they *might* blow us up there'd be public outcry.

There are no dangerous breeds - there are individual bad tempered dogs with bad nerves, and there are dogs that have bad tempers due to how they've been brought up, but breed specific legislation is a ****in' joke.

My sentiments exactly ...if maybe not in those exact four star words

doctor evil

"dog racism"

Foolish statement, theyre animals for christ sake. Of course some breeds are more aggressive than others (besides handling training). Have you ever heard of something called selective breeding?.

doctor evil

deaddonkey wrote:

not too good at listening to me, so he's always on the lead unless i'm on the beach or something.
i love them to bits though.

So what if he chances another amenity user while on the beach since you have already admitted that he is not good at listening to you, dogs have better hearing he may sense something before you do and be off like a shot.

I hate the attitude that my dogs are the bees knees and could never hurt a fly. They are dogs, animals, not robots that don`t have an iota of their own thought.

deaddonkey

doctor evil wrote:

So what if he chances another amenity user while on the beach since you have already admitted that he is not good at listening to you, dogs have better hearing he may sense something before you do and be off like a shot.

just cos he isn't 100% on listening to me (he's still pretty good, but not as good as the shepherd, because he wasn't trained from a pup) doesn't mean he's going to start trouble, because he isn't and I know him well enough to be certain of that.

"dog racism"

Foolish statement, theyre animals for christ sake. Of course some breeds are more aggressive than others (besides handling training). Have you ever heard of something called selective breeding?.

It's not a foolish statement at all. Keeping a dog on a lead and muzzle is no good for his health and happiness. Keeping him on a lead and muzzle to comply with a law singling out breeds, that's unfair. But rest assured, from now on I'm going to keep my dogs on a lead and muzzle, but every time I see a black man or a muslim in the street I'm going to cross the road very, very fast, because, hell, he might be dangerous, and that's a good enough reason to avoid them.

Selective breeding for aggression is extremely rare - pretty much limited to American pitbulls bred for fighting. Dobermann Pinschers have been selectively bred over the past century to calm them down as they used to be much more highly strung and much more aggressive, with the result that most DPs you meet today are very stable and make great pets.

Dog aggression is almost always in the handling.

The most aggressive breed of dog, and I'm not kidding - is the average collie cross. Working in a vets I have met more aggressive collie cross dogs than any other breed put together.

The fact is: my dogs are not aggressive unless their home is threatened, and I'm not pandering to nanny state sun reading knee jerk reactions from politically correct yellow bellies about how they should be walked on a muzzle. I have no time for that propaganda. I will walk them under my control and under my terms, the law be damned.

I'm convinced dog owners who believe in the always on a lead/muzzle malarkey are in fact jealous of other dog owners who have trained their pets and have the knowledge and confidence to let them off lead when appropriate. That's what it boils down to - just because you can't control your dogs off lead effectively, doesn't mean that I can't, and doesn't mean I'm going to change to make you feel better.

A good natured dog doesn't start trouble with people. And I have 100% confidence in my dogs to be sure enough of that.

peasant

doctor evil wrote:

"dog racism"

Foolish statement, theyre animals for christ sake. Of course some breeds are more aggressive than others (besides handling training). Have you ever heard of something called selective breeding?.

To classify, evaluate, describe, judge or even condemn a dog by breed and breed alone is exactly that: the doggy equivalent to racism.

Because all that the breed more or less clearly defines is size, looks and appearence. To say that all Rottweilers/GSD's/Dobermans etc are aggressive is akin to saying that all black people are potential murderers.

When judging a dog by breed you're judging it on appearance only. Not on character, not on upbringing, not on it's social environment and ...most importantly ...not as an individual.

So yes ...breedism equals racism.

doctor evil

So your saying there is no common characteristics with regards to temperment within certain breeds?, ridiculous.

deaddonkey I don`t have a dog and no I am not jealous of well trained dogs (I applaud their owners). Well trained dogs in my neck of the woods are quite rare. A lead used properly is not cruel. Whether or not a muszzle is cruel is up to the individual. What I object to is the absolute belief that a dog can do no wrong, there is always a chance that a dog can do something out of character as a living organism.

You cannot compare the topic of duscussion to human colour or creed or that is seriously going off topic and silly. With regards to post no. 46 it is part of a dog owners responsibilities to be mindful of other peoples fears. I`m not saying pander to them, just be mindful instead of being selfish.

peasant

doctor evil wrote:

So your saying there is no common characteristics with regards to temperment within certain breeds?, ridiculous.

There are breed similarities regarding general behaviour:
A Terrier will be more inclined to dig than a Greyhound, a retriever will be more inclined to wander off than a herder and a Jack Russel will be more excitable than a Great Dane.

But as far as temperament goes ...that's a purely individual thing.
Also, what a lot of people seem to call a "bad temper" is often nothing more than bad (or none at all) training.

What I object to is the absolute belief that a dog can do no wrong, there is always a chance that a dog can do something out of character as a living organism

.

Yes, that is (partially) correct. Every and any dog can suddenly take it into its head that it wants to chase that ball now (for example) and at that moment it doesn't matter to the dog if that ball is just being blown around by the wind on a beach, if its about to roll in front of a car or if there are kids playing with that ball.

This is where the owner has to step in, use his/her foresight and keep the dog under control. (by voice command and/or lead)

But nog dog will just all of a sudden "fall out of character" and turn from a reliable,smoochy-poochy couch potato into a snarling, blood thirsty monster at the flick of a switch.

Gillie

deaddonkey wrote:

are you presuming the dog is a monster because of his breed? it sure sounds like it. Has the dog been aggressive to you? Has it attacked your dog?

I repeat, NO breed is inherently aggressive.

Band the deed, not the breed etc.

He was but i'll get over it!
I was more annoyed at the fact that I put My GSD on the lead and the guy with the rottie did nothing.
I thought it was just manners if nothing else!

Gillie

deaddonkey wrote:

here's a link to a picture of my badly behaved aggressive, inherently dangerous, hyperactive pup with her best mate.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c334/deaddonkey/pipsandmags.jpg

Great Pic!
The look on the small dog is priceless!:)
It's like "Oh Come on! You Couldn't be tired already!":D
My Partners in Crime! (The GSD has got a big bigger since!)