Shelbourne crisis

redspider

> Ollie calls a Propaganda Rally for Friday

I see its an open questioning session with Ollie Byrne, the SSDG and any fans that want to attend. So any real fans of Shelbourne, now is your chance to speak. However, whilst I expect there will be a lot of questions, I dont expect there to be any real new information. If there is, post it here.

The one thing I would say is that all this huffing and puffing in the press, "the club is in crisis", etc, without the details of that crisis, to me now sounds as if Ollie Byrne is just preparing the fans for lower expectations for this season. The club will survive on a much lower footing and results will suffer in comparison to last. I expect to see a lot of young untested players used next season. An early exit from the CL and a mid-table finish at best. Relegation would be a disaster for the fans and it's not an impossibility so merely avoiding it is the target.

It also seems clear that Ollie Byrne has not set a price on the club and has no real intentions of getting out quickly. Any price he has put forward has obviously not interested many or indeed any prospective buyers, as few as they may be. So, it will remain his club for the time being at least and will be a going concern, albeit a club with debts (the exact amount unknown) and assets (the exact amount unknown). At least the usage of the ground has been secured which has to be a good thing.

By the way, where will Shamrock Rovers play next season?

There will be fewer fans next season, and indeed fewer games, and that means less income. Ollie would be mad to try and milk the fans for as much money as possible.

Zebra3 wrote:

In fairness Ollie has said that he will sell the club if it is in the best interests of SFC and he has said it countless times.

But SFC is Ollie Byrne, and he has not set a price. To me, it sounds like he is still wheeling and dealing and hoping that the 'millionaire with more money than sense' will come in and give him a big pay-day. I think he is angling for that although this year reality has bitten in and he has had to curtail things a lot but I expect he will hold out for the long haul.

But all these articles, radio and TV shows etc, that's all a load of nonsense and bluster. What he says one week doesnt happen. He wrote in the Sunday Times article that something big was happening at the club and it would be announced in due course. All rubbish.

The problem with the club is that it is a one-man club and that one person doesnt always speak the truth - not lies per se but more pie in the sky stuff that is more wishful thinking and not based on actual reality.

He has taken the fans on a roller coaster ride which has now come to a sudden stop so next/this season will be an interesting transition yearfor the club. Indeed, it may be one of many many years of 'transition'. The underlying question remains, is Ollie Byrne savvy enough to run the club? The answer is probably not.

redspider

Zebra3

Don't worry, the fans expectations are already low.

Personally I wouldn't be too bothered if we got relegated next season (I wonder have the champions ever been relegated anywhere else :eek: ), if we still have our club playing in the league in five years time and what's left of the money from Tolka gets us our own little ground, I'll be happy.

You gotta take the good with the bad.....or should that be vice verse?

_blank_

Some comments from Jamie Harris that appeared in today's Irish Times.

O'Halloran, however, currently looks more likely to renegotiate his contract with Shelbourne while a number of other players, including both of the goalkeepers released by Pat Fenlon at the end of last season, Dean Delaney and Steve Williams, coming back.

"Having talked to Ollie over the last week or two there seems to be a sense that some of the problems are getting sorted out," said another of last year's championship winning squad, Jamie Harris, yesterday. "And if that happens then I think you'd see a lot of the other players committing themselves to staying on."

Harris himself has agreed to remain at the club and Byrne's hope is that the likes of Dave Rogers, Richie Baker and Jim Crawford might stick around too although getting a manager in place would undoubtedly make the task of reassuring them about the future a good deal easier.

"We'd definitely all like to see something happen on that front within days or maybe a week," said Harris.

therecklessone

Any player who chooses to stay then cries if they don't get paid next season will have only themselves to blame.

Not that I want us to lose anyone else, just sayin'.

redspider

Zebra3 wrote:

Don't worry, the fans expectations are already low.
Personally I wouldn't be too bothered if we got relegated next season

Expectations may be low but relegation is a bit much. I think Shelbourne fans should be bothere if that indeed turns out to be the case. Like many posters on the shels web forum, most of the problems emanate from Byrne and problems are likely to continue as long as he is still involved. But that wont change unless there is a major organised fan revolt.

The meeting with the fans is tonight. Byrne's intentions will be to placate the doubters and to ask all to get behind the team, etc. I expect Byrne to remain in charge because at the moment the fans are not organised enough and Shelbourne are not in 100% trouble, yet. We may know more after tonight.

Redspider

MrJoeSoap

Ollie Byrne's comments after we won the league in November. The last ten seconds are my personal 'favourite'.

http://shelbournefc.com/multimedia/audio/interviews/oliver.mp3

And how many times has he said it since...?

I can't see anything but relegation this season, it'd be a miracle if we stayed up.

_blank_

We won't go down.

MrJoeSoap

But who'll keep us up? Richie Baker?

_blank_

I was at the supporters meeting.

The following players have apparently committed to Shels for next season.

Jamie Harris, Richie Baker, James Chambers, Greg O'Halloran, Dean Delaney, Steve Willians, Alan Moore, Dave Rogers, Jim Crawford and Gary Deegan. Crawford was the catalyst behind this, and apparently O'Halloran asked for a new contract with Shels immediately after the hearing that released Heary. I am in a state of shock at this reaction from Alan Moore, and have changed my opinion of him, in a total 180 degree reversal.

No mention of one G. Crowe, which disappoints me.

The commitment is based on paying of wages owed, which Ollie assured would be sorted on Monday.

Ollie also said that the funds were there to ensure that all tax owed, a further €104k, and back wages is available, which will assure the granting of a licence to compete in league, setanta and Europe next season.

Also monies to ensure wage payments for 6-7 weeks after. After that we are again fúcked it seems.

Those players will be full time, but we'll have part time players also.

Appaently, one Ossie Kilkenny threatened to "fúcking put Shelbourne Football Club out of existance'.

Oh, and it looks like Stephen Geoghegan will be manager, the legend that he is, with Jim Crawford the most likely to be his number two.

Töpher

seansouth wrote:

I was at the supporters meeting.

The following players have apparently committed to Shels for next season.

Jamie Harris, Richie Baker, James Chambers, Greg O'Halloran, Dean Delaney, Steve Willians, Alan Moore, Dave Rogers, Jim Crawford and Gary Deegan. Crawford was the catalyst behind this, and apparently O'Halloran asked for a new contract with Shels immediately after the hearing that released Heary. I am in a state of shock at this reaction from Alan Moore, and have changed my opinion of him, in a total 180 degree reversal.

No mention of one G. Crowe, which disappoints me.

The commitment is based on paying of wages owed, which Ollie assured would be sorted on Monday.

Ollie also said that the funds were there to ensure that all tax owed, a further €104k, and back wages is available, which will assure the granting of a licence to compete in league, setanta and Europe next season.

Also monies to ensure wage payments for 6-7 weeks after. After that we are again fúcked it seems.

Those players will be full time, but we'll have part time players also.

Appaently, one Ossie Kilkenny threatened to "fúcking put Shelbourne Football Club out of existance'.

Oh, and it looks like Stephen Geoghegan will be manager, the legend that he is, with Jim Crawford the most likely to be his number two.

Thought Moore would have been one of the first off the ship! Same as yourself here, huge reversal in opinion on him from myself.

Jim, by all accounts, is even more of a hero than before! Apparently he also said that Rangers, Newcastle, and Reading, didn't treat him anywehre near as well as he has been at Shels?

redspider

Someone else (LeixlipRed) took these notes at the meeting, I'll put them here for information exchange purposes:

I took notes at the meeting so I'm going to post up a summary of most of the topics that came up tonight for those who weren't there or had to leave early. It's not complete as I didn't note down everything that was said. Apologies for any ommisions or mistakes.

Firstly the good news,

A group of players (some still contracted some not) have rallied together and informed Ollie they will be staying with the club. Whether this is conditional on wages owed or not is unclear. The players are

Jamie Harris, Richie Baker, James Chambers, Greg O'Halloran, Dean Delaney, Steve Willians, Alan Moore, Dave Rogers, Jim Crawford and Gary Deegan. Also 4or 5 U 21 players are to begin pre season training along with these senior players. Mick Neville and Tony McCarthy are also to remain at the club. Geogho is our new manager atleast till the end of pre season. Ollie will sit down with him tomorrow to discuss his position.

Pre season trainin will begin on Tuesday.

Now for the less good news,

Wages owed to the players will be payed on Monday. The money owed to the players is c.174k. Awarding of our legue licence is based on the clearing of this liability. The money for this clearing of back wages is coming from two of our current sponsors who, after hearing Ollie on Liveline, stepped in to help out. The sponsors in question were not named. The sponsors will also pay the 75k it will cost to run the underage setup this season.

In 2006 the club's expenditure was 2.6 million euro of which:

500-600k - non football expenses (rates, etc)
35k a week for wages and RC = 1.82 million
75k for underage setup.

Slight disparity in figures there but Ollie didnt go into too much detail.

What is interesting is that Ollie specified that 1,25 million euro was spent last year on Revenue and wages (850k for RC and 400k on wages). This leaves 570k in unpayed wages/revenue bills if you take the 1.82 million a year figure from above. Ollie has specified that only 175k is owed to the players. So what happened to the missing 400k?

Ollie also alluded to the poor income from last year. Examples of this was a total gate receipt from the FK Vetra game of a paltry 7k.
Gate receipts were down a massive 40% this season on last years figures. Ollie never mentioned if this was offset by an increase in season ticket sales however.

Predicted income for next year includes 400k for CL and league prize money.

Now for the Tolka Park situatuion.

When Tolka was originally sold to A company called LH secreatries the understanding wass we'd be in Finglas in 4 months. Ollie claims the figure Tolka was sold for was a "fair price" for the time.
The company we sold Tolka to is run by someone called Ivano who brought Ossie Kilkenny in too help seal the deal. Ivano is the conduit through which Ollie drew money down of the slae price of Tolka. Now Ivano and Kilkenny are no longer speaking and this is part of the reason the current deal Ossie was offering has not gone through.

6m euro has been drawn down so far with 3m of that going towards purchasing the Donnelly's part of the lease. The other 3m obviously used to prop the club up the the past few years.

Ollie had agreed a deal with Kilkenny to fund the club through a compnay called Compupay Ltd. 25k a week would be givent o the club for one year. This money is obviously our own money from the Tolka sale. This deal was conditional on Ollie taking a reduced role (Director of foootball, no financial role). this deal fell apart and now Kilkenny may take a court injuction against Ollie for refusing to ste down. Ollie insists he did offer to step down and Kilkenny is lying.

Ollie also made a number of commitments to the fans. He promised that by March 16th a financial committee would be set up to take charge of Shelbourne's financial affairs.

He also promised to elect an SSDG member to the board in the near future.

On our future home, Morton is still an option but seems unlikely at this stage. Talk of groundshare with Rovers was not dismissed by Ollie. He intimated that rovers are very keen on such a deal.

That's about it. Apologies for the spelling mistakes that are probably there.

There is some newish information in that and some figures, but many are rough and are far from exact. It sounds like some of Byrne's friends have dug deep to keep him in operation. It remains to be seen whether this will be a 'stay of execution' or whether things will be run to budget from now on. I expect that a lot will depend on the number of fans that show up at games. Whether Byrne's expectations (business planning?) will match what will actually happen will be the biggest factor as to what happens this season.

The Shelbourne saga will continue .....

Redspider

redspider

By the way, I spotted this on Wikipedia about Dermot Desmond:

From an early age, it was obvious that Desmond was a natural salesman. The young Dubliner made a small fortune selling football programmes at Tolka Park in Drumcondra.

In the Celtic thread, I was pointing out that Desmond is far from squeaky clean due to various 'business shenanigans' and alleged dodgy deals down through the years. Its on public record that he admits to giving CJH money, and we all know that wasnt just for fun or the sake of it. Thats just one.

But from the above, I would have thought that programme sellers were volunteers and all money should be returned to the club. Of course, were Shelbourne playing there at the time, I think they were, maybe someone can confirm.

But if it was Shelbourne, and if wikipedia is correct that he made a small fortune (for the times and his age no doubt), surely then he 'owes' something to Shelbourne?

Or at least can O.Byrne get the money back that Desmond, allegedly, pocketed from the programme sales, with interest and then some ?!?!

redspider

redzerdrog

redspider wrote:

By the way, I spotted this on Wikipedia about Dermot Desmond:



In the Celtic thread, I was pointing out that Desmond is far from squeaky clean due to various 'business shenanigans' and alleged dodgy deals down through the years. Its on public record that he admits to giving CJH money, and we all know that wasnt just for fun or the sake of it. Thats just one.

But from the above, I would have thought that programme sellers were volunteers and all money should be returned to the club. Of course, were Shelbourne playing there at the time, I think they were, maybe someone can confirm.

But if it was Shelbourne, and if wikipedia is correct that he made a small fortune (for the times and his age no doubt), surely then he 'owes' something to Shelbourne?

Or at least can O.Byrne get the money back that Desmond, allegedly, pocketed from the programme sales, with interest and then some ?!?!

redspider

dont be giving ollie any ideas:rolleyes:

bohsman

Shels arent in Tolka very long, Drumcondra FC were the original tennants.

Zebra3

bohsman wrote:

Shels arent in Tolka very long, Drumcondra FC were the original tennants.

Shels first played out of Tolka back in the fifties after the Irishtown Stadium project ran into difficulties.

On the Desmond thing, he could have been selling programmes for Shels or Drums, but until there is any evidence he done anything illegal, I don't see how he owes us (or Drums) anything. However if he wants to throw a few million our way, I'll even help him fill in the forms for claiming tax relief back.....

I suspect the story is a little bit of a "look at my working class background" credentials that some rich people like to bandy around. And the "small fortune" he made was probably relevant to his pocket money at the time.....

redspider

Zebra3 wrote:

On the Desmond thing, he could have been selling programmes for Shels or Drums, but until there is any evidence he done anything illegal, I don't see how he owes us (or Drums) anything. I suspect the story is a little bit of a "look at my working class background" credentials

I'm not saying he did anything illegal per se, but as with any cash from retail business there is a possibility of siphoning off stuff. Its only Wikipedia though and it would be interesting to see if he would agree with that description or not. I agree, the working class background aspect is a 'nice to have' and the small fortune might be relative to the times, but 'from small acorns do oak trees grow', as everyone needs to start somewhere.

However, even if Desmond has a soft spot for Shelbourne, he may not want to get involved in any way, and above all else in his business dealings he is far from philanthropic and he is unlikely to act as a 'sugar daddy' with Shelbourne as his 'trophy/entertainment' team.


Back to the money side, there have been mutterings that the Shelbourne financial figures divulged on Friday dont add up. No surprise there. There's a few things. One, Tax figures were higher last year as a consequence of paying the back taxes for PAYE and employer and employee PRSI. My understanding is that Shamrock Rovers got a better deal than Shelbourne did and other clubs which seems unfair to me.

Second, the figures look at costs. I think the club first needs to think of Income and lay those figures out for past years as well. Looking at an estimated budget going forward, and attempting to use realistic figures.

Gate Receipts: 1000+ or so a game, 15 or so a head, 20 home games = 300k
Prizes: 100k ? (? CL )
Sponsorship: 100k ?
TV: 50k ?
Merchandise (profit): 20k ?

That looks to me like a total of about 600k.

Taking out ground hire costs (???) and Insurance costs, and other staff costs, 75k for the u-21 league (why doesnt the FAI or Gov pick this one up for all clubs??), how much does that leave for players? Lets say its 400k. With a squad of 20, plus youth players, that would mean an average of 20k a year. Thats not enough. I wont draw too many conclusions because the figures are back of a napkin style and not based on actuals.

If Shelbourne fans want to get out of this mess, they need more of them, more gate receipts is the best way to drive a club.

And that brings me back to my suggestions for the LOI from last year. There are just too many Dublin clubs and no one club has any sufficient mass of support to get any momentum going t drive its success. A reduction in clubs in Dublin (and the greater Dublin area) is the only way going forward I think.

Redspider

bohsman

"A reduction in clubs in Dublin (and the greater Dublin area) is the only way going forward I think."

Bohs on the Northside, Pats South Inner city, Rovers Tallaght. UCD in their own little world. More than enough.

_blank_

bohsman wrote:

Bohs on the Northside, Pats South Inner city, Rovers Tallaght. UCD in their own little world. More than enough.

:rolleyes:

Blahblahblah, you sound like a bitter little man, you do realise that don't you?

Dance on the grave of Shels all you like, but does your mind fail to realise that we ARE NOT on the brink of existance? Are you that foolish not too realise that even if we went into administration/liquidation we wouldn't go out of business, the money from the sale of the freehold on Tolka Park is more than enough to pay any debts the club has.

Sure, we'd probably have nowhere to play, but we could go to Tallaght, the FAI and Government would love that.

The Morton people would then see money in our account, and allow development.

FFS, you need to get a grip.

DerekD Goldfish

. A reduction in clubs in Dublin (and the greater Dublin area) is the only way going forward I think.

and who are you sujesting step asside for the good of the league?
Leaving UCD out of the equation as they will never be a well suported club but they way they are run will never need to be there are 4 dublin clubs
Dublin has a population of roughly 1.5m greater manchester has a population of 2.5m and suports Man Utd 70k, Man City 40k, Bolton 30 k, Wigan 25k,Oldham 13k, Bury 11K, Rochdale 10K, Stockport 10K, Altrincham F.C. 6k, Stalybridge 6k, Droylsden 3k, Now granted these are rough capicitys rather than attendances(I dont have that much time on my hands) but still it means in an area with a populatipon of 2.5m they have teams with a total capacity of roughly 224K.
Comparing the premership to here is often dangerous but Im just pointing out that in theory a city of dublins side should easaly be able to suport 4 teams (and ucd). A merger would not bring any extra fans through the gates people who stay at hoem because the Eircom league is "Crap" whould not go just because North Dublin Utd and South Dublin Athletic were formed and it would turn a good number of fans away from the game I wouldnt go to suport St. Shamrock Athletic or Patrick Rovers and im sure many would be the same.
A reduction in teams is not the answer.

_blank_

Shelhemian FC ftw :rolleyes:

SectionF

seansouth wrote:

Shelhemian FC ftw :rolleyes:

Didn't John O'Donoghue and Ollie already try to pull that stunt?

Big Ears

A reduction in Dublin clubs would only reduce the overall amount of fans in the league .

If Shels went that would just be 1200 less fans in the league and none of them would go to another club . If all the Dublin clubs went away and North/South Dublin were formed , they would lose the vast majority of Bohs/Pats/Shels/Shams/UCD and retain about an equal number of fans to which Dublin City had for their games .

The way to get more fans is to improve things as they stand not make Australian like rash ideas(which may have worked for them) and start disbanding clubs and seeting up franchises .

bohsman

seansouth wrote:

:rolleyes:

Blahblahblah, you sound like a bitter little man, you do realise that don't you?

Dance on the grave of Shels all you like, but does your mind fail to realise that we ARE NOT on the brink of existance? Are you that foolish not too realise that even if we went into administration/liquidation we wouldn't go out of business, the money from the sale of the freehold on Tolka Park is more than enough to pay any debts the club has.

Sure, we'd probably have nowhere to play, but we could go to Tallaght, the FAI and Government would love that.

The Morton people would then see money in our account, and allow development.

FFS, you need to get a grip.

Slight overreaction there, I was replying to redspiders lets reduce the amount of clubs suggestion which I dont agree with. London has far more clubs than Dublin taking size into consideration.

Bateman

SectionF wrote:

Didn't John O'Donoghue and Ollie already try to pull that stunt?

John Delaney you mean

SectionF

Bateman wrote:

John Delaney you mean

Him too.

Bateman

No need for the . After all, we defeated them.

super_furry

Can't believe anyone is still believing the 'figures' Ollie is pulling out of the air. I still think Shels are in real trouble, and until the fans take matter into their own hands, their club is in very real danger.

Bateman

Ollie's going to be on Near FM on Wednesday. More paranoia and waffling I expect.

MrJoeSoap

Bateman wrote:

Ollie's going to be on Near FM on Wednesday. More paranoia and waffling I expect.

If he says anything along the lines of "I've great hopes that the financial stability of Shelbourne FC will be assured within the next ten days" then I may just cry.

therecklessone

new sig...:D