Shelbourne crisis

redspider

psi wrote:

Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron. Basically someone told you a story or you heard a rumour - this is not evidence. Unless you can provide actual substantial evidence be VERY careful what sort of accusations you are making. I would appreciate you clarify this comment or withdraw it.

I agree that anecdotal evidence is somewhat of an oxymoron. I will therefore restate:

"It has been alleged by a Shelbourne ever-present and long-term fan that FAI international ticket prices were charged at above face/cost value and the extra money was kept by Shelbourne."

By the way, its interesting what the Shelbourne Management Committee wrote in their open letter recently:

As a Management Committee, we will endeavour to be more transparent than before. It is not always easy to keep fans completely up to date with everything that is going on in the club. Certain information has to remain private as it can be sensitive and cause bigger problems if it is revealed.

I am not someone that makes wild accusations with no basis and I have no interest or nothing to gain as a neutral for disparaging Shelbourne. The Shelbourne story is a very relevant one for Irish league soccer and a lot that has gone on is not in the public domain and may never see the light of day officially.

There will be rumours about Shelbourne, as there will about any football club, but it doesnt mean that they cant be mentioned at all if properly phrased.

Lets hope for Shelbourne's fans sake that the club does get its licence (continuing) at the end of March or whenever it is ......

Redspider

John_C

Lads, I have no evidence either but Ollie was to be seen in Jury's before every international giving people tickets. I think that anyone who believes he was selling tickets to (for example) France and Switzerland last year at face value at the same time as Shels were going down the financial toilet is being naive.

KdjaCL

John_C wrote:

Lads, I have no evidence either but Ollie was to be seen in Jury's before every international giving people tickets. I think that anyone who believes he was selling tickets to (for example) France and Switzerland last year at face value at the same time as Shels were going down the financial toilet is being naive.

Oh noes your are blackening Shels good name!!!1111

Seansouth to clarify:

"It has been alleged by a Shelbourne ever-present and long-term fan that FAI international ticket prices were charged at above face/cost value and the extra money was kept by Shelbourne."

Is actually incorrect they did not keep the extra money they kept ALL the money and owe the FAI 500K for tickets received over a 2 to 3 year period. As i said it has not been mentioned by the FAI or Shels and is not part of the conditions imposed on Shels. If you would like to know where that rumour came from i suggest you email the Daily Star info@thestar.ie as they were the 1st to mention/hint at it in a report on Shels.

But oh god no please think of Shels good name and that shambolic moderating of the soccer forum, not my bloody fault you dont read newspapers.

/Friday 16 of feb newspaper.


kdjac

Bateman

zip.

GuanYin

Bateman wrote:

I know for a fact that the Ollie touting story is true as I spoke to someone who worked for the travel agent that he done deals with, who knows, he probably done deals with more than one travel agent. And we're not talking small amounts of money here either.

Unless you can produce solid evidence I don't want to know.

Let me just say this in case anyone was under any illusions.

I don't care if you want to talk about rumours you have heard from whatever source.

The second you start making statements about fact and evidence, we are entering the territory of defamation. Anyone who posts anything that could be construed as such, gets banned from soccer.

Bateman, you can edit your post above to provide the evidence for you facts or you can edit your post to remove the potentially defammatory remarks. Or I can do it for you.

Pighead

psi wrote:

Unless you can produce solid evidence I don't want to know.

Let me just say this in case anyone was under any illusions.

I don't care if you want to talk about rumours you have heard from whatever source.

The second you start making statements about fact and evidence, we are entering the territory of defamation. Anyone who posts anything that could be construed as such, gets banned from soccer.

Bateman, you can edit your post above to provide the evidence for you facts or you can edit your post to remove the potentially defammatory remarks. Or I can do it for you.

I'm guessing that goes for you too kdjaCL. psi must have forgot to highlight your indiscretions.

KdjaCL

Pighead wrote:

I'm guessing that goes for you too kdjaCL. psi must have forgot to highlight your indiscretions.

It was mentioned in the daily star? Should every single linked article in every thread be removed as they may say things about things?

kdjac

Bateman

tbh I don't mind having the post chopped. This time 2, 3 years ago I was aware of certain things but couldn't really tell anyone, now everyone knows thanks to the stranglehold someone once had on the print media coming to a spectacular end, so don't mind holding my fire for now.

blu_sonic

16 pages who'd have thought anyone would have cared so much? All messing aside, I've not read the posts, but I would like to say to the shels fans that I'm sorry to see it happen, I hate to see off the field stuff (that blights our game) send any team into the 1st dive or potentially out of the league (a la Dub city and Limerick) Imagine it happening over the pond.

As a Shamrock Rovers supporter I know all about bad off the field managment, Get the fans in,take back control and revive your club, remember you lot are the 2nd most successful team in the country, thats not a dig, tradition shows that it should be your lot and our lot duking it out in the business end of the Premier.

Good luck for the future, I doubt the ability for a direct return, but I don't think your stuck. Don't become Dundalk smile Sarge

LizardKing

I bought 3 tickets for English Premiership game from a contact working in the FAI , the F.A.I added their own handling fee of ~6 euro per ticket - I have the invoice and receipt so don't think they can really take the high moral ground here.

SectionF

Why is the FAI, or an FAI employee, selling tickets for EPL games?

The Rooster

The FAI added a levy/surcharge to tickets for the away game in France. Can't remember the exact figures, something like they charged €25 but the face value was €20. And we were told in advance that this was the case.

Its the only away game I've been to, but I'd guess they do it for most of the away internationals.

Ronan|Raven

SectionF wrote:

Why is the FAI, or an FAI employee, selling tickets for EPL games?

Because that sums up the organisation perfectly.

Bateman

LizardKing wrote:

I bought 3 tickets for English Premiership game from a contact working in the FAI , the F.A.I added their own handling fee of ~6 euro per ticket - I have the invoice and receipt so don't think they can really take the high moral ground here.

That is ticket touting. Just because you're not buying on the street from a skanger, it's still touting. There are far too many mugs who don't realise that this goes on all the time, and have this moral objection to "touting", like it's a theoretical thing that doesn't affect them, or football in general. :rolleyes:

redspider

This was posted on Shelbourne's website:

9 March 2007

Club Licensing Appeal Result

The members of the Board of Management of Shelbourne Football club this morning attended the Appeals hearing in relation to two of the conditions imposed on the club regarding its First Division license.

The decision of the Appeals body was that both conditions be extended to the 30 March 2007.

The Board of Management would like to thank the Club Licensing Appeals body for the courtesy shown to us this morning and look forward to fulfilling the amended conditions as laid down by their decision.


Btw, Shelbourne start with a credible draw:
Shelbourne 2 - 2 Kildare County


Redspider

KdjaCL

Unclear is that to get a UEFA licence you must have a Prem one, they are the rules Shels do not have a prem one so thereforee cannot play in Europe.

Odd how that means nothing.

kdjac

Zebra3

KdjaCL wrote:

to get a UEFA licence you must have a Prem one, they are the rules Shels do not have a prem one so thereforee cannot play in Europe.

Not true.

KdjaCL

Zebra3 wrote:

Not true.

It never is, there is a way for a div 1 team to get a licence ie some cup winners play outside top leagues and can still compete in Europe. Shels would obivouly go for this licence but the main requirment stays the same no debts to players.


kdjac

LizardKing

See Damien Duff was in Tolka on Friday night , anyone wanna start the rumours him and his agent Devlin are looking to invest in Shels??

Bateman

LizardKing wrote:

See Damien Duff was in Tolka on Friday night , anyone wanna start the rumours him and his agent Devlin are looking to invest in Shels??

LOL, they were at a meaningless Bohs game towards the end of last season, nothing to worry about there. Anyway, Devlin makes enough money out of Irish football as it is. :mad:

redspider

More from the Management Cmte:

.... On another front, we won our appeal on Friday against the two conditions imposed on us retaining our first division licence. It would be wrong to say that it was a victory but just simply an extension of time for us to submit our audited accounts and have our tax and ex-players payments brought up to date. Hopefully we will achieve this by 31st March and then knuckle down for the rest of the season.

The fat lady is warming up in the wings ......

Redspider

Töpher

LizardKing wrote:

See Damien Duff was in Tolka on Friday night , anyone wanna start the rumours him and his agent Devlin are looking to invest in Shels??

Wonder if he had to pay in :eek:, or if dear ol' Damo got to stroll in for free.

KdjaCL

http://irishfootballonline.com/tables.php?division=Division%201

If shels were bohs fans Keely be out, but they not and they getting 1k+ for their home games.


cough nice one shels fans cough.


kdjac

_blank_

Rock bottom of the league eh?

Tbh I'm just thankful we have a team to watch and support.

One point from our first three games is nice, seeing as we played the two teams that will probably occupy two of the three top positions, and didn't look out of our depth in any way.

Anything better than finishing bottom of the division would be a bonus for us imo.

Bateman

KdjaCL wrote:

If shels were bohs fans Keely be out
kdjac

On what do you base that? :rolleyes:

Zebra3

Well, the team is committed and playing well. We've just suffered two defeats at the hands of two teams who are expected to be in the top two positions come the end of the season..though Athlone will probably have something to say about that.

Given a bit more time I'd expect us to start moving up the table.

Töpher

The hunger from the young lads is immense, a joy to watch. Remember we're still in pre-season, and having any team to support is like a gift from the heavens.

I can't explain how proud I am watching these lads play for the shirt, I really can't. Heroes, one and all of them.

Brian Gartland is going to be a superstar, he is immense!

_blank_

:eek:

Brian Gartland is evil.

He reffed Boardeaux in the Astro League before Xmas and sent off two of my players

Also, he has twice, in successive weeks, been responsible for the ball ending up in the Shels net. He told me himself the ball hit him last before the Harps winner, and it was plain for all to see he hoofed the ball into the net for Dalk's opener last week.

Immense me hole

This was in the Irish Times today

Row over ownership of Tolka Park football ground in court

A row over the the multimillion euro buyout deal for Tolka Park has come before the Commercial Court. Businessman Ivano Cafolla has sued accountant Ossie Kilkenny and others over the sale of the lands at Tolka Park last year, alleging "unlawful misappropriation" of a valuable leasehold interest in the lands.

Mr Cafolla, the Sweepstakes, Ballsbridge, Dublin, has sued Mr Kilkenny, Killiney Hill Road, Killiney, Dublin; Jerry O'Reilly, Elgin Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin; Lyttleton Enterprises with offices at Ballygoran Court, Celbridge, Co Kildare, and Coneforth Trading Ltd, Windsor Place, Dublin.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly yesterday admitted the case to the list of the Commercial Court, a division of the High Court.

Mr Cafolla, a director and shareholder of Coneforth, is seeking a declaration that Lyttleton holds the property in trust for Coneforth, and also wants an injunction restraining Lyttleton from dealing with an interest in the land, known as the Donnelly interest.

It is claimed that Coneforth reached an agreement in March 2003 with Oliver Byrne, then owner of Shelbourne Football Club, and Accolade Ltd in relation to lands occupied at Tolka Park, Richmond Road, Dublin.

Accolade held a lease of the 3.7 acre site from Donnelly Fruit and Veg Ltd which in turn held a 99- year sporting lease of the land from Dublin County Council.

In May 2004, Coneforth agreed to provide an additional €150,000 to Accolade and the precondition relating to planning permission was deemed satisfied, it is claimed.

Mr Cafolla claims he was responsible for managing the acquisition of the lands and planning the project on a day-to-day basis on behalf of Coneforth.

Mr Cafolla claims that, in March 2006, it was decided by Mr Kilkenny, Mr O'Reilly and Mr Cafolla as shareholders of Coneforth that the Donnelly interest would be acquired directly by Coneforth for €2.5 million.

At this time, Mr Kilkenny did not wish the acquisition of the Tolka Park lands through Coneforth to become public knowledge, it is claimed.

Lyttleton was introduced by Mr Kilkenny and Mr O'Reilly to acquire the Donnelly interest and the transaction was completed in October 2006, Mr Cafolla claims.

From May 2006, Mr Kilkenny and Mr O'Reilly have sought to exclude Mr Cafolla and Coneforth from dealing in relation to the Tolka Park deal, it is claimed.

They had made various statements indicating they were going to "freeze" him out of the land development project and had, from December last, denied that Coneforth has any beneficial or legal interest in the Donnelly interest and claimed it was owned outright by Lyttleton.

The case resumes on May 21st.
© 2007 The Irish Times

redspider

> Row over ownership of Tolka Park football ground in court

Oh-oh ..... another spanner in the works. Will this have a bearing on the FAI awarding a licence this week?


Also, Joe Casey on behalf of the Mgmt Cmte stated yesterday:

31st March Deadline
As I’m sure you are aware, 31st March is the deadline the club were given to finalise their audited accounts, pay outstanding taxes and pay outstanding liabilities to players by. This deadline is fast approaching and we are working tirelessly to achieve those goals. Believe me; it will not be for the want of trying if we don’t meet these requirements. With a bit of luck, we will meet this target and have the retention of our first division licence confirmed. I will keep you updated on developments in relation to this as appropriate.

I would be concerned by some of that language:
.... it will not be for the want of trying
.... with a bit of luck

Not exactly exuding with confidence, with a mere 4 days to go!

No fat lady at the moment .....

Redspider

_blank_

The only change in any situation since the players and Keely came in is that Keely and the players started playing games.

Finances were not sorted.

Debts were not sorted.

The BoM even had to ask for an extension until the 31st March to see if they could even start to get them in order.

Personally, I find Joe's comments better than the previous Ollie quotes, as seen in Zebra's* sig. At least Joe is being honest.

*edit : /sorry, not Zebra, some other Shels fan.

Jonny Arson

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Brian Gartland is going to be a superstar, he is immense!

He'll be pretty good if he gains a bit of pace! In saying that the three young lads in defence Gartland, Rafferty and O'Reilly all have looked fantastic 90% of the time but for the other 10% they look badly susceptible to ****ing up as seen the other night so hopefully with a bit more time, experience and toughness these lads will come really good. Same for Chambers, Harte, Walsh and McEniff.... all look very useful but are very green. I've no doubt with Crawford, Collins and Leech due to come back Shels will climb the table pending some changes come the next transfer window. On and off the pitch it's gonna take time and patience.

therecklessone

seansouth wrote:

*edit : /sorry, not Zebra, some other Shels fan.

Probably me?

_blank_

Yeah, you.:)

_blank_

No European football this year for us.

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=609

Statement from the Board of Management of Shelbourne FC

Following a meeting this evening of the board of management of Shelbourne FC, it was decided that Shelbourne FC would not be applying for a UEFA licence for this season. The club feels that following its recent success over the last number of years , it would not be of benefit to the clubs record to play in this seasons Champions League qualifying rounds.

It is also felt that it would be of no benefit to the leagues co-efficient in Europe, which Shelbourne FC along with other clubs has helped to raise.

Shelbourne FC would hope that our fans will understand the board of managements decision, and we would like to wish all the Eircom League of Ireland clubs well in this seasons UEFA competitions.

applehunter

Fair play to Shels.

The right thing to do in fairness. The whole league will benefit to have the strongest team represent the country.

redspider

So no CL football for Shelbourne.

Although it may seem like a very generous gesture, its more likely got to do with the fact that they have no chance of securing a Uefa licence! This is not surprising given the fact that they have yet to satisfy the continuation of a 1st Division licence after 31st March.

No club in their right mind would turn down the CL income even if the likely outcome was to be knocked out straight away, unless they were forced to, which is what I strongly suspect in Shelbourne's case. They may be spinning it as magnanimous but they have no choice ......

Still, no fat lady ......

Redspider

_blank_

Update from our BoM

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=615

1. March 31st Deadline

As per the conditions laid down by the Licensing Committee, we complied with the following three conditions by 31st March 2007:

a. Outstanding Taxes which were due up to 31st January 2007 were paid by cheque to the Collector General in Limerick.

b. Outstanding players’ wages etc. were paid by cheque to the PFAI as per their list.

c. Accounts were submitted to the Licensing Committee.

These conditions were laid down by the Licensing Committee in order for us to retain our First Division licence

By Cheque? :eek:

BOING BOING BOING

2. Europe

I note, with interest, many of the comments written in relation to the club deciding not to apply for a UEFA Licence this season and I note, especially, the comments enquiring as to whether or not members of the Board of Management have the “male sexual organs” required to deal with such bodies as the FAI and the Licensing Committee. Well, let me say that the members of the Board not only have the required sexual organs, but with what we have had to deal with over the last three months, have had to have them coated with steel. It certainly was not an easy decision not to apply for UEFA Licence and we had many discussions relating to this at Board level.

OK, taxes and players paid, accounts submitted. I suppose they still have to be scrutinised.

It's baby steps, but things are looking kind of positive. I know the money must be coming on the bck of the ground again, but our outgoings are certainly way down on last season. Now if we could only get a win.

I think redspider's fat lady just went on a diet and has laryngitis.

Zebra3

seansouth wrote:

By Cheque? :eek:

I'd be more worried if they were paid by cash.

Especially with one of the payments due to an office in Limerick.

redspider

seansouth wrote:

OK, taxes and players paid, accounts submitted. I suppose they still have to be scrutinised. It's baby steps, but things are looking kind of positive. I know the money must be coming on the bck of the ground again, but our outgoings are certainly way down on last season. Now if we could only get a win. I think redspider's fat lady just went on a diet and has laryngitis.

I think it's all fairly positive from a Shelbourne point of view. No doubt a spanner in the works could always appear but I'd say Shelbourne are safe until the end of the season.

So, here is a Fat Lady singing, by which I mean that the saga is over, for now anyway:
http://images1.comstock.com/Imagewarehouse/RF/SITECS/NLWMCompingVersions/0006000/6500-6999/KS6745.JPG

By the way:

Shelbourne BOM - Joe Casey wrote:

As I said in my original open letter a number of weeks ago, certain things have to remain confidential within the club and we have endeavoured to provide all our friends and supporters with as much information as we can.

I have to commend Shelbourn'e BOM and Joe Casey for their very frank communications. This is a positive sign and should help the club.

One thing that remains an ongoing concern of course are the 'confidential things'. Rumours abounded that the FAI were/are owed money (250k?) and that this is one reason why Shelbourne got a licence so that they can continue to trade and pay the bits that they owe.

I think what's of perhaps more worry for Shelbourne long-term is the court case about Tolka Park (see earlier posts) and acquiring a new place to play. This season has been sorted, and probably next as well which is likely to be 1st Division at Tolka (I cant see them getting promoted), but what happens after that is unknown.

Let the Fat Lady sing ...

redspider

KdjaCL

Shels as they are now will not go bang, they have a small budget and good crowds. They will be out of tolka in a while but will still get some cash in for it. Leaving them in a position of having cash but no ground. Rovers havent had either for 20 years but managed to make a profit last season.

I would imagine either us or Bohs will accomadate them for a few seasons not expecting them back in the prem anytime soon but im sure they will get there eventually.

For once they are doing whats best for the club in the longterm rather than the shortterm madness regmie of old. Altho they have debts i imagine 1500 a week is helping but that will only last so long.

Tbh wouldnt bother me if they shared Richer once the pitch holds up.


kdjac

_blank_

KdjaCL wrote:

Shels ... they have ... good crowds.

:eek:

Told you.:D

KdjaCL wrote:

Tbh wouldnt bother me if they shared Richer once the pitch holds up.

It'll have to be somewhere, but I hate eating my knees, I hope it's not Richer.

KdjaCL

seansouth wrote:

It'll have to be somewhere, but I hate eating my knees, I hope it's not Richer.

Good crowds for 1st div

Camac tbh its where god meant us to watch football.

kdjac

_blank_

We've had bigger crowds in Tolka than most Premier matches this season.

Just as every other year.

KdjaCL

My only regret in the downfall of Shels is this Pats team never got to play them

We would haven feckin murdered you

See football swings and roundabouts..the gloating and now the remorse




kdjac

Zebra3

Well, the thing is the DCC won't allow us to leave Tolka until we have a long-term viable ground option to go to.

I sincerely hope that means buying (even part of) a ground. What's left from the sale of Tolka must go towards securing the long-term future of the club.

gimmick

Tolka Park closed because of the state of the pitch? Shels to play at Whitehall until then? Is this true?

KdjaCL

gimmick wrote:

Tolka Park closed because of the state of the pitch? Shels to play at Whitehall until then? Is this true?

Afaik the FAI want the work done before the Setanta Cup final in case its down here and they look stoopid to the IFA.

http://file028a.bebo.com/4/large/2007/04/22/20/683476199a4179307892b437660739l.jpg


State of it.

kdjac

Zebra3

The facts.

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=630

KdjaCL

Zebra3 wrote:

The facts.

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=630

Oh sweet god they published that!!!

Has he lost the plot or something?


kdjac

Jonny Arson

Joe Casey is one of our shining lights at this club. It is so refreshing to see informative, honest, no B.S. communication from the club of late. Long may it continue.