Underground Ireland

Clare Bear

brianthebard wrote:

What about the ailwee caves, too touristy?

I was there in August, never even knew the place existed or knew a thing about the bears....really interesting. So I was in a Clare Bear cave....yeah wasn't funny at the time either....

Anyway keep talking people, I love this sort of stuff!

blindman

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=514
Worth a look here, they have a few years head start.

Victor

beans wrote:

Does anyone have any links to photos from inside the Magazine Fort in the Phoenix Park, or any information on the fort itself? Anyone ever been inside?

I would love to have a nosey around in there.

It looks quite delapidated and dangerous, but no doubt theres attraction in that.

Sewer under Mayor Street Lower.

beans

It's situation on top of the hill always lead me to imagine there were catacomb-type tunnels under the fort itself. Don't have any evidence to back this up, and Google is coming up blank.

Fighting Irish

120_Minutes wrote:

I read all 11 effing pages of that and got no closure! what happened to ted???

welcome in the internet

looksee

There are old copper mines near Bunmahan in county waterford, they are accessible but not many people get to go down.
There is supposed to be a link between the Dunmore caves near Kilkenny city and Kilkenny castle but not much evidence that it exists, it seems unlikely.
Like several other places the whole area under the high street in Kilkenny is pretty much hollow, presumably with cellars.
There is a tunnel on the way in to Swiss Cottage Co Tipperary, used by servants going to and fro the house so not to spoil the scenery.

fiacha

beans wrote:

It's situation on top of the hill always lead me to imagine there were catacomb-type tunnels under the fort itself. Don't have any evidence to back this up, and Google is coming up blank.

there are plenty of drains / culverts running through the Park. I don't know how safe / accessible they are, but there are plenty of man-holes around the place. There are two fairly obviously ones on the hillside above the pond in the Furrey Glen. Was never tempted to take a look as they always stink of man manure. their general locations are here http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=53.359856,-6.350162&spn=0.002171,0.004935&t=h&z=18&om=1&msid=116873374344253362587.00043ba871288829ea1b8

the Fort itself seems to get a fair few dodgy looking visitors, so i've never gone into it. I think it also gets used for parties from time to time. I'd say you'd be safer going in as a group. i've not been around there for a while, but the gates were always hanging open.

info posted for reference only, i strongly suggest that you do NOT attempt to explore any of these features. and don't come crying to me if you get hurt.

beans

the Fort itself seems to get a fair few dodgy looking visitors

Heard it was being used as a shooting gallery / junk shop. Haven't seen any evidence of this during my explorations, but that may be all on the inside, which leads me to believe there's an easy way in. The gate looked fairly closed last I checked, but I didn't really look closely.

All will become clear

BaconZombie

Does anybody know the law on who owns manhole covers?
I've heard stories of them been missing in the middle of a road and the company saying it was the Dublin corps problem and Dublin corp saying it was the companys?

So who owns manholes and public land and who owns the tunnels due to even if you own the land you only own the top few feet of the ground under it?

weemcd

id check courthouses located near prisons, i hear its not uncommon to have tunnels leading from below the jail to the courthouse for security reasons, urban legend has it theres one here (co armagh) leading from the courthouse to the womens prison.

/edit id imagine some garda stations/old army posts would have large sections of underground tunnels, could be very tricky to get access too though.

Victor

BOFH_139 wrote:

Does anybody know the law on who owns manhole covers?

I've heard stories of them been missing in the middle of a road and the company saying it was the Dublin corps problem and Dublin corp saying it was the companys?

So who owns manholes and public land and who owns the tunnels due to even if you own the land you only own the top few feet of the ground under it?

Often, it is adjacent landowners that own the land. The council has possession of the land and has responsibilities for maintaining the road. The council licences use of part of the land to utility providers to provide services.

Typically, the utility is responsible for the entire manhole and its maintainence. they will do their damndest to deny this.

gurramok

Spotted this underground passage for our little friends

Doolittle51

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out before. The attachment shows the entrance/exit of the railway tunnel under the phoenix park.

gurramok

Nice pick Doolittle51, never knew exactly where the thing was.

Guess many have walked/cycled/drove across that way not knowing what was underneath them!

Does it follow the path towards that busy roundabout near the tea rooms or does it follow a straight line like from A to B?

Latchy

There is apperently an underground connection of some sort between Collins Bks on the quays across the liffey to the Guinness brewry .Apperently the story goes that it was to be used in by the army case ireland was invaded by either th british or the Nazis ? ,although i am sure their is an even bigger explanation for its construction and use lol .Perhaps sombody might be able to expand on this ?

SarahMc

andrew wrote:

In St. Annes park theres a tunnel from where the house used to be to the park depot (the old servents' house) so that the Guinness family didn't have to see the servents. It's not open at the moment, so i doubt you'd be able to get into it. I think there are plans for refurbishment though.

QUOTE]

I think that is fairly common in old castles. I know Kilkenny castle has a tunnel so the masters never had to see the servants.

Doolittle51

gurramok wrote:

Nice pick Doolittle51, never knew exactly where the thing was.

Guess many have walked/cycled/drove across that way not knowing what was underneath them!

Does it follow the path towards that busy roundabout near the tea rooms or does it follow a straight line like from A to B?

I only copped on where it was the other day. I drive over it every day on the way to work! Have a look on google maps. It shows the path of the tunnel - it goes very close to the roundabout!

mikemac

weemcd wrote:

id check courthouses located near prisons, i hear its not uncommon to have tunnels leading from below the jail to the courthouse for security reasons, urban legend has it theres one here (co armagh) leading from the courthouse to the womens prison.

One in Nenagh leading from the prison to the Courthouse. It's not a big distance, maybe 400 metres or so

dame

SarahMc wrote:

andrew wrote:

In St. Annes park theres a tunnel from where the house used to be to the park depot (the old servents' house) so that the Guinness family didn't have to see the servents. It's not open at the moment, so i doubt you'd be able to get into it. I think there are plans for refurbishment though.

QUOTE]

I think that is fairly common in old castles. I know Kilkenny castle has a tunnel so the masters never had to see the servants.

Yes, it's common, Strokestown House has one too.

eoin5

The Burren has loads of interesting caves worth a mention.

jimi_t

Great thread.

One other place worth mentioning might be the LUAS works in Ranelagh - a lot of it was built over the original tram lines and there's almost certain to be something of interest there. I went looking around Ranelagh Park (there was an old convent there as well) but all thats around is an ESB sub-station. A better place to start might be the old railway bridge up near Elmwood Ave.

Rathmines seems a very likely location as well with the Barracks, St. Marys and various churches around. Anyone know of any sites in Ranelagh/Rathmines?

Victor

:rolleyes:

Susannahmia

Ballyfin House near Portlaoise is rumoured to have a few underground passages

Jello

last_orders wrote:

theres an underground stream going from terenure college lake that goes to bushy park joining up with the waterfall, dunno how accessible it is though. on either end it looks walkable like a sewer but its fairly long so in the middle it might be a natural tunnel.

Yeah, I'm in Terenure College and there's often talk about that. There's a pretty big opening a both ends allright, but nobody's ever had the balls to go through it.

admiralofthefleet

just read this on archiseek:


Last Monday at a workshop regarding future development of DIT at the Grangegorman site, I discovered that a tunnel underneath Rathdown Road linking Grangegorman with the Broadstone side exists although it's no longer in use.
Also, while we're at it, has anybody ever heard of an extension that branches off from the tunnel that runs beneath the Phoenix Park and terminates at Áras an Uachtaráin? A small emergency platform. I don't believe it and can't remember where I heard it. It's a groovy rumour though.



maybe victor could shed some light on this?

Victor

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

Last Monday at a workshop regarding future development of DIT at the Grangegorman site, I discovered that a tunnel underneath Rathdown Road linking Grangegorman with the Broadstone side exists although it's no longer in use.

I suspect this is either a really short tunnel the across the road or a brick arched sewer.

Also, while we're at it, has anybody ever heard of an extension that branches off from the tunnel that runs beneath the Phoenix Park and terminates at Áras an Uachtaráin? A small emergency platform. I don't believe it and can't remember where I heard it. It's a groovy rumour though.

I somehow doubt it. There is the Phoenix Park Tunnel which passes approximately under the Wellington Monument and along the eastern bounday of the barracks. There may or may not have been a platform at some stage for the barracks.

Einstein

i know theres some tunnels in temple bar. I used to record in sun studios on crowe st. on a regular basis and there were tunnels there that the students and engineers well knew about. seemingly quite spooky too...

Victor

Sewers. Sewers. Sewers. Sewers. SEWERS! SEWERS!

Realise how high the Liffey is there when it is high tide.

Fremen

...just watch out for C.H.U.Ds

Deliverance

Little island in Cork by the sea is riddled with tunnels, a housing estate built there, lost two houses due to the sinking of the houses into the ground. For a while the underground erosion caused a heavy truck which was parked to sink into the road, for awhile we as kids observed strange little anommally type holes appearing at random in the road which we dropped pebbles into and had to wait a long time before hearing the splash or hit if any.

Anyway a rumour started (I heard) that the old IRA used to use these tunnels to travel covertly from the island which is on the river, right into the english army camps (billets) which are now factorys (Biocel) etc which are right across from the 'devils hole'. It sounds plausible.

As kids we were the most knowledgeable about the geology of the island due to our exploration of every corner and part of the island we discovered a cave on the far side covered by woods and trees and we nicknamed it the 'devils hole' none of us ever went into it but it looks like a geologists dream. I wonder if anyone actually explored this little gem to see if the rumours were true. If they are true then it is definately a contribution worth investigating for 'underground Ireland' i.e. if the cave does actually lead out into the english camp then I'd imagine the rumour is more than plausible.

Saying that at the time as a kid I wondered about a lot and there was an open door on one of the billets that I mentioned, I wondered in there and found a big collection of old toys belonging to some kid presumably an adult at the time and yet discarded into oblivion due to grown upness. I spent half my day playing with his toy soldiers and army men by myself in this little oasis. I went back there a few times to play with these toys discretely and respecfully (I always put them back the way I found them). It was nice and it was fun. Childhood is / was great.

Exit

Just a heads up...

Keep an eye out for a programme called "Cities of the Underworld" It airs on History Television over here, not sure where it would air over there. Anyway, next week, they're exploring underground Dublin. The blurb says "Dublin, Ireland is much more than a city full of pubs and pints. Pagan burial tombs, subterranean defense tunnels, and mysterious burial crypts line the underground below the rolling hills. Even an underground river runs through the heart of the city where you'd least expect to find it."

It's generally a very interesting programme, but we'll have to wait and see if anything 'new' pops up on it.

Dord

Exit wrote: »

Just a heads up...

Keep an eye out for a programme called "Cities of the Underworld" It airs on History Television over here, not sure where it would air over there. Anyway, next week, they're exploring underground Dublin. The blurb says "Dublin, Ireland is much more than a city full of pubs and pints. Pagan burial tombs, subterranean defense tunnels, and mysterious burial crypts line the underground below the rolling hills. Even an underground river runs through the heart of the city where you'd least expect to find it."

It's generally a very interesting programme, but we'll have to wait and see if anything 'new' pops up on it.

Is there any way you can record it and upload it?

Prob not legal though.

Exit

Unfortunately I don't have the technology, but a quick google shows that the series airs on The History Channel in the UK. You might have to wait a while to catch this one though.

If I remember to watch it, I'll update here.

EDIT: Actually, it's on torrents for people who know about that stuff (I haven't a clue) - http://www.google.ca/search?q=Viking+Underground&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Dord

Exit wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't have the technology, but a quick google shows that the series airs on The History Channel in the UK. You might have to wait a while to catch this one though.

If I remember to watch it, I'll update here.

EDIT: Actually, it's on torrents for people who know about that stuff (I haven't a clue) - http://www.google.ca/search?q=Viking+Underground&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Thanks for the info.

pirelli

120_Minutes wrote: »

I read all 11 effing pages of that and got no closure! what happened to ted???

http://www.gigdig.com/~ted/

Ted and Bob went back to the tunnel entrance. He found the rope at the bottom of the entrance and realised gravity had simply pulled it back into the tunnel. Further back into the tunnel entrance the origional rope coil had been left on a higher ledge and the friction from Bob climbing had caused it to fall from the ledge some meters below causing the movement of the rope. The picture at the beginning was what TED found inside.Ted got geared up and went back into the newly discovered cave and squeezed his way along the passage head first with his arms by his sides and using his toes to push his body along floyds tomb. It was very restrictive and when he squeezed through the tight bend he got stuck due to extra equipment and couldnt move. He was barely able to expand his chest enough to breath and if he nudged back or forward there was a chance he would suffocate. The terrible smell that frightned him before returned although depite the terrible situation Ted had a good idea what the smell was as himself and bob discovered a main river tributary formed into an underground river that ran under the rock face near where the tunnel was located. It was possible that this was responsible for the noise and that the round rock was a gully where water rushed up causing the round rock to roll about. The main river also ran overground only 70 miles north of the cave where there was 3 small towns situated that still use the river for supposedly treated sewerage. Sometimes when there was a flooding the sewerage treatment plant was flooded and raw sewerage leaked into the main river.This had the double effect of causing water spouts and loud noises and smell's. The other theory Ted had was that hydrogen sulphide gas from the limestone in the rock formed sulphric acid which causes the limestone to dissolve percloating the surface of the cave wall and ceiling whih also causes sulfurous fumes which have as unpleasant odour and when factored with out the air breeze which was usually when the river was slower and create a vacuum that caused the breeze there would be no ventilation.The percloated surface accounted for the strange designs on teh cave ceiling and wall. On this cave expedition Ted err'd on the side of caution and Bob had trailed a rope behind Ted that had a small rucksack with 3 torches and most basic equipment. That rope was tied attached to Teds pants and was contributing to restriction on his body and had caused him to get stuck tight causing him to suffocate. He couldnt wriggle about to untie the rope and could barely move his head. His eyes were becoming bloodshot and he feared if he moved any further forward he would be unable to take in any air.Ted was unable to move back due to the rope which now was going to prove fatal. He tried to scream out to Bob but his body muffled any sound and he still had a half hour before Bob expected the rope signal.


Bob meanwhile waited over 4o mins and had been trying to communicate using the rope, He knew Ted was stuck or the rope had broken because the plan was to thread the rucksack through the tunnel. It was now 1 and 1/4 hours and Bob couldnt see Teds feet due to the bend in floyds tomb, He tried using some of the old tools to feel about in the tomb/cave to see if he could locate Teds body, There was nothing long enough to reach that far into the tomb and the old steel pipes had been brought home after the last expedition.Bob was going to have to climb in. Bob used some of the old tool's left behind to break away the small hole leading to floyds tomb, He was bigger than Ted and would need to break away another inch of Rock. He went at it with the sledge hammer breaking small peices the size of fingernails at a time.

Ted could feel Bob Pulling on the rope, The rope was twisted around his leg so hurt like hell every time Bob pulled hard on it. At one stage he thought Bob would amputate his leg he was pulling so damn hard. He screamed out but could only hear a faint muffled sound. After Bob stopped pulling on the rope he could feel dull vibrations in the rock.Some dust from weaker rock was falling on the side of his face and he could not move to shake it off. All Ted could do was bat his eyelids and grimace with his mouth. The dust was filling his nostrils and stinging his eyes and he knew he would suffocate unless Bob stopped hammering on the cave wall.

Bob dropped the sledge hammer and checked the hole, It would be tight but he would fit. Bob cut come rope and thread it into the cave ahead of him and wriggled through the cave hole. He had to exhale air and collapse his lungs to wriggle his chest through and twist painfully to get his hips through the cave hole. He barely could move his head and wriggled along the tight cave using his toes. He had to put his arms in front of him and would not be able to change that position. The reason for this was to be able to tie the rope onto Ted's feet. Bob was wriggling with his face scraping the cave ceiling and floor and realised he would not make it around the tight bend in floyds tomb, He had to reach Ted in the next few feet. Bob managed to wriggle another foot and became wedged in the bend of the cave his chest unable to fully expand forcing Bob to take small shallow breaths. He was not going to be able to get back.!


Ted felt hands on his feet and Knew Bob had come to investigate. After an hour of Bob tapping on his foot Ted began to realise BOB was also stuck, After one more hour Ted knew Bob was stuck and would probably suffocate in a few more hours. While Ted had the entire cave in front of him Bob was jammed behind Ted with no air coming from either direction. If Ted farted Bob would probably die. Ted was more concerned that if Bob pushed him he would
become compressed and would be unable to breath. Suddenly that is exactly what Bob did. Ted felt Bobs hands on his feet and felt his Body compress and forced forward. Ted tried to curl his legs but the cave walls compressed his knees and Bob still had enough leverage to push Ted.

Ted immediately lost the ability to breath and would die in minutes.The hard rock ceiling pushed down on his back and the cave floor crushed the air from his lungs. His eyes were bulging and yet Bob kept pushing. Ted also realised BOB might be using him to try free himself.

Bob used the cramped calfs and feet of Ted to try and force his body into reverse and try wriggle back the way he had come. He was dying and the air was hot and dry.

Ted blacked out..................

http://www.gigdig.com/~ted/buttshot.jpg

http://www.gigdig.com/~ted/shoes.jpg

The reason Ted was dying
http://www.gigdig.com/~ted/squeeze.jpg


Relief replaced despair as Bob took in lungfuls of fresh air. He had dislodged Ted just enough for a draught of air to get through. He could barely reach Teds motionless foot but was at least alive for now.

flogen

Not a tunnel, but I'm pretty sure Busáras is built over an old theatre/cinema which you can still gain access to.

lostexpectation

an old theatre that ws therebefore, huh i thought it was just a civil servants arts thing to put a theatre at the bottom of big building like liberty hall

Victor

flogen wrote: »

Not a tunnel, but I'm pretty sure Busáras is built over an old theatre/cinema which you can still gain access to.

It was built for the entertainment of passengers waiting for connecting bus services. Back in the 1940s it was popular to have short cinema screening of less than half an hour.

starn

Is it still possible to gain access to it??

Degsy

Exit wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't have the technology, but a quick google shows that the series airs on The History Channel in the UK. You might have to wait a while to catch this one though.

If I remember to watch it, I'll update here.

EDIT: Actually, it's on torrents for people who know about that stuff (I haven't a clue) - http://www.google.ca/search?q=Viking+Underground&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

He was in Dublin a while back,actually got acess to the river Poddle by tunnel and walked along it to the confluence with the liffey.Apparantly the watewr level can rise very rapidly and drown anybody in the tunnel(which was constructed from brick in medeival tims).Fascinating stuff.

bringitdown

starn wrote: »

Is it still possible to gain access to it??

http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2007/000153.html

shoegirl

The Insider wrote: »

Here is an article I found on Trinity's tunnels...

http://web.archive.org/web/20000301073225/http://www.tcd.ie/Student/Publications/tn/21-apr-99/tnfeat5.htm

The 1937 reading room is mostly underground. There is a series of tunnels linking the Berkley to Early Printed Books. It was certainly in use in the mid 1990s, because I recall a period of interest in a couple of books there in my incompleted M.Litt years when I spent a bit of time in EPB copying music from some 17th century publications. As far as I know there is also connections from the '37 to the Berkley.

Kerry Houston, who did a thesis on St Patricks cathedral once told me he remembers (or somebody told him they remembered) flood waters covering the pews in the cathedral. I believe part of the remedy was to pipe part of the Poddle under the cathedral. They should be able to tell you there. If not Kerry works in DIT in the Music Dept.

Been in the Catacombs in Christchurch years ago - nothing very exciting but check St Audeons on High St, they may have something more interesting. A visit to Marsh's library may also provide fruitfull as they may have descriptions of the topography of the city from earlier periods.

There may be some tunnelling in the docks from old rail lines, a record of LMS may help here. (Ask the guys in the Fry railway museum at Malahide Castle, they are quite likely to know).

shoegirl

Deliverance wrote: »

Little island in Cork by the sea is riddled with tunnels, a housing estate built there, lost two houses due to the sinking of the houses into the ground. For a while the underground erosion caused a heavy truck which was parked to sink into the road, for awhile we as kids observed strange little anommally type holes appearing at random in the road which we dropped pebbles into and had to wait a long time before hearing the splash or hit if any.

Cork is an interesting place for tunnels.

When I moved to the city in 2002 the drainage scheme was still in action and I recall hearing that some disused railway tunnels were being used by the contractors to transport parts etc.

I lived in Midleton for a couple of years and recall the entire Main St being closed off due to a gas leak from a disused petrol station on the Western end of the main st which was considered dangerous due to the presence of a limestone cave structure under the main st (not man made tunnels sadly). Rumours abounded for a long time that the REAL reason for the Amgen abandonment of the site in Carrigtohill was due to similar limestone structures in that area (never actually been denied or confirmed). Of course the Glanmire tunnel is still alive and well and in use in Cork.

The only other tunnel I can think of is the old rail tunnel at the port in Dun Laoghaire. As far as I recall this was one of the older routes from the city - cannot remember which? I think it was already closed by the 1970s.

crushproof

shoegirl wrote: »

Cork is an interesting place for tunnels.

The only other tunnel I can think of is the old rail tunnel at the port in Dun Laoghaire. As far as I recall this was one of the older routes from the city - cannot remember which? I think it was already closed by the 1970s.

Is that the tunnell that spurs off the mainline into the ferry terminal? Its not that long!! Although its meant to be pretty spooky inside the terminal where the trains used to stop...platforms and ticket booths are still there apparently.
One rumour even goes as far as there being an old train there aswell!!

Magpie!

I remember seeing something on RTE once about a tunnel leading from the quayside near the customs house up to the 'red light' district around the Five Lamps area (Monto?) so that naval officers could discretely go off to get their bit without showing a bad example to their crews. (Who presumably just headed up Amiens st without needing anyones example to follow)

jayj224

There is a tunnel under A+E Dept to the powerstation in James Hospital , Hasn't been mentioned

Victor

shoegirl wrote: »

Kerry Houston, who did a thesis on St Patricks cathedral once told me he remembers (or somebody told him they remembered) flood waters covering the pews in the cathedral.

I think this is unlikely - perhaps a roof leak?

There may be some tunnelling in the docks from old rail lines, a record of LMS may help here.

The LMS lands are at or about the same level of an exceptionally high tide and unlikely to have tunnels. There were very short tunnels from the quay sides under North Wall Quay to the warehouses and railway. there is also the Phoenix Park and Phibsborough Tunnels, several km away.

shoegirl wrote: »

When I moved to the city in 2002 the drainage scheme was still in action and I recall hearing that some disused railway tunnels were being used by the contractors to transport parts etc.

No, they put the sewer along the alignment of the Cork Blackrock and Passage Railway.

Rumours abounded for a long time that the REAL reason for the Amgen abandonment of the site in Carrigtohill was due to similar limestone structures in that area (never actually been denied or confirmed).

Cork does have a special breed of gobshyte, doesn't it?

The only other tunnel I can think of is the old rail tunnel at the port in Dun Laoghaire. As far as I recall this was one of the older routes from the city - cannot remember which? I think it was already closed by the 1970s.

There were train services that connected with ferry arrivals/departures.

Magpie! wrote: »

I remember seeing something on RTE once about a tunnel leading from the quayside near the customs house up to the 'red light' district around the Five Lamps area (Monto?) so that naval officers could discretely go off to get their bit without showing a bad example to their crews. (Who presumably just headed up Amiens st without needing anyones example to follow)

Most likely a sewer. What would Naval officers be doing at be Customs House? And why would they go up Amiens Street when Gardnier Street or Store Street would be much more direct? But most importantly of all, there was the slight matter of the Old Dock (between the Customs House and Busáras) blocking the route of any potential tunnel.

irishgeo

the old achill to westport rail liane has some tunnels on it.

not sure if they are accesible but you can see the enterance to onw if you drive on the westport to newport.

this links medntions them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnels_in_Ireland

Magpie!

Victor wrote: »

.Most likely a sewer. What would Naval officers be doing at be Customs House? And why would they go up Amiens Street when Gardnier Street or Store Street would be much more direct? But most importantly of all, there was the slight matter of the Old Dock (between the Customs House and Busáras) blocking the route of any potential tunnel.

No need to get sarky.

I said NEAR the Customs House, not at it. Why wouldn't Naval officers be around the docklands? And I was obviously making a flippant comment about going up Amiens St, maybe there are more direct routes i don't know the are very well.

Anyway i wasn't claiming any definite knowledge on the subject, I just said I saw something on TV. where does all your knowledge come from oh wise one?

Victor

Maps. And actually studying holes in the ground instead of spreading urban myths as gospel.