Live self-Builds - mod warning in post no. 1

BarneyMc

stickybookmark wrote: »

I've never heard this in bold. I had insulation in the GF ceiling/FF floor and the builder insisted, and I mean insisted on taking it out coz waste of money when you have a concrete slap first floor. I asked my bro who has a concrete slab FF (and UF heating incidentally) and he said correct you don't need insulation for noise when you have a concrete slab first floor. But you're right any photos I've seen the UF heating pipes are placed on the insulation so wonder how they're gonna place them on the FF floor...

The insulation on the FF floor is nothing to do with noise. It is to stop the heat from your FF UFH pipework seeping into the slab and getting it into the bedrooms where it belongs. Also, it makes it easy for your UFH installer to pin the UFH pipework to. My installer can work with 25mm and I'll probably just use that as I think 50mm insulation on the FF is a bit overkill. I think (no expert) the pipework can still be installed without insulation but it might be a lot of work to fix to the concrete slab. Also, as I've said, you'll probably see a lot of heat soak into the slab before it reaches your bedrooms.

I can't see any need for insulation in the GF ceiling!

I stand corrected on all of this!

stickybookmark

BarneyMc wrote: »

The insulation on the FF floor is nothing to do with noise. It is to stop the heat from your FF UFH pipework seeping into the slab and getting it into the bedrooms where it belongs.

I wanted insulation originally coz of noise (in my parent's house you can hear everything upstairs/downstairs - so annoying)

Never thought of that about the heat from UFH going down instead of up if no insulation.

just do it

stickybookmark wrote: »

Thanks. I'm not having HP to satisfy part L. I'm having it coz I want to heat my house cheaply!

Don't know what the air tightness target is, will check. I know the builder is going to do a test at the end though.

Thermal bridges - quinnlite blocks are going on top of the deadwork at the thermal bridge. These were delivered this morning actually glad to know I'm doing my bit to pay IBRC's bad debts :pac::pac:

And there's goign to be a tape/membrane put around teh windows (right to the outside of the opening) to seal them, that's for air tightness as well

You're ticking a lot of the boxes in fairness. My goal is to reduce the heating demand in the first instance and the more you do this the longer the payback period on your heating system. For example if you're heating bill for the year is €500, is it really worth a few grand to get it down to €200? Maintenance and running costs alone might negate the saving.

stickybookmark

just do it wrote: »

You're ticking a lot of the boxes in fairness. My goal is to reduce the heating demand in the first instance and the more you do this the longer the payback period on your heating system. For example if you're heating bill for the year is €500, is it really worth a few grand to get it down to €200? Maintenance and running costs alone might negate the saving.

Yeah I know.

I had a 2 hour meeting with the HP supplier yesterday in their office. A very good guy, a young-ish guy. He knew his stuff I'd have to give him that. I am starting to think I should have gone for ASHP. Must check if it isn't too late to change.
It was very interesting learning about how the system works inside the house. Hot water priority etc. We went through the diagram of all the pieces of kit. Debate is raging as to whether GSHP goes inside or outside the house but now I'm thinking might not even get GSHP

stickybookmark

My gaff today.
Complete with services inlet for GSHP (which I'm not sure I even want now after meeting with HP supplier yest) in the utility!

BarneyMc

stickybookmark wrote: »

Yeah I know.

I had a 2 hour meeting with the HP supplier yesterday in their office. A very good guy, a young-ish guy. He knew his stuff I'd have to give him that. I am starting to think I should have gone for ASHP. Must check if it isn't too late to change.
It was very interesting learning about how the system works inside the house. Hot water priority etc. We went through the diagram of all the pieces of kit. Debate is raging as to whether GSHP goes inside or outside the house but now I'm thinking might not even get GSHP

Yes, it is hard to know which HP type to go with. I've decided to go the ASHP route. There are lots of discussions on here with pros and cons for both. I can't see why it's too late for you to change your mind as you're just starting your build.

893bet

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think he's probably given you the q50 and n50 figures.

For your final Ber cert your assessor will divide the q50 by 20 for the air changes per hour figure.

That is possible!

There is still the proper front door to go in. Its just an osb frame at the moment so alot of leakage here. MVHR supply/extract pipes were sealed but they werent 100% sealed so will gain some more for the next test here. Some leaks around window board areas to be fixed. Thresholds to be taped etc.

<2 should be comfortable to achieve which I would be happy with.

stickybookmark

bloody hell would they make up their minds.....

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/new-rules-will-remove-requirement-for-oneoff-homes-to-be-inspected-31408368.html

just do it

stickybookmark wrote: »

bloody hell would they make up their minds.....

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/new-rules-will-remove-requirement-for-oneoff-homes-to-be-inspected-31408368.html

Sounds like you're caught in the middle. In fairness it's a reversal that's welcome and common sense. It's just a pity Big Phil hadn't listened at the time. Unlike him to create legislation that subsequently haunts his colleagues he has left behind :rolleyes:

sydthebeat

just do it wrote: »

Sounds like you're caught in the middle. In fairness it's a reversal that's welcome and common sense. It's just a pity Big Phil hadn't listened at the time. Unlike him to create legislation that subsequently haunts his colleagues he has left behind :rolleyes:

its going to leave a lot of builds in legal limbo.....

stickybookmark

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think he's probably given you the q50 and n50 figures.

For your final Ber cert your assessor will divide the q50 by 20 for the air changes per hour figure.

My builder has said these are the air tightness target levels for the test:

Q50 m3/m2hr
N50 ACH

Are these acceptable for a house with HRV ? I've read through my provisional BER and can't seem to find a value for target ac/h

stickybookmark

lownhard wrote: »

Because you are using a slab in your construction drawings I would allow 100mm on top of slab/200mm slab/200mm service cavity below slab. Basically allow min 500mm between GF ceiling and finsihed floor level on the FF.

My FF floor is 75mm concrete/UF htg pipes/150mm slab/150mm service cavity.

delfagio

Do you also have insulation on top of the concrete slab also stickybookmark??

893bet

stickybookmark wrote: »

My builder has said these are the air tightness target levels for the test:

Q50 m3/m2hr
N50 ACH

Are these acceptable for a house with HRV ? I've read through my provisional BER and can't seem to find a value for target ac/h

Less than 3 is the minimum value I understand for a house with Hrv, or at least that is what is commonly quoted as the cut off. About that and it is more difficult justify the cost of the Hrv.

Less than 3 is good. Less than 2 is better, less than 1 is.....etc

stickybookmark

delfagio wrote: »

Do you also have insulation on top of the concrete slab also stickybookmark??

On the FF? Nope, builder insisted on taking the insulation out
So no insulation on the FF floor

Christ I'm soo p!ssed off with the lot of them today. Stress has reached an all time high !! :mad::mad::mad:
Feel like the builder just wants to plough ahead with the build regardless of whether it's structurally sound/to my taste and the engineer just wants to certify the whole thing at the end but doesn't want to be involved in any design questions.
Feeling disillusioned with the whole lot of em right now !!!

BarneyMc

stickybookmark wrote: »

On the FF? Nope, builder insisted on taking the insulation out
So no insulation on the FF floor

Christ I'm soo p!ssed off with the lot of them today. Stress has reached an all time high !! :mad::mad::mad:
Feel like the builder just wants to plough ahead with the build regardless of whether it's structurally sound/to my taste and the engineer just wants to certify the whole thing at the end but doesn't want to be involved in any design questions.
Feeling disillusioned with the whole lot of em right now !!!

I feel your pain. Except for an odd one or two I've had to argue points with the lot of them. Very stressful indeed!!!

Curious Geroge

stickybookmark wrote: »

I had insulation in the GF ceiling/FF floor and the builder insisted, and I mean insisted on taking it out coz waste of money when you have a concrete slap first floor.

I can understand removing the insulation in the ground floor ceiling (no point if you have concrete first floor) but the insulation on the FFL under the pipework is a must; did the builder actually remove it ?

Do you have perimeter insulation around the rounds before the screed goes in ?

What height are the ceilings now ? Have you the height to put 20/50mm insulation in?

Cavanjack

stickybookmark wrote: »

On the FF? Nope, builder insisted on taking the insulation out
So no insulation on the FF floor

Christ I'm soo p!ssed off with the lot of them today. Stress has reached an all time high !! :mad::mad::mad:
Feel like the builder just wants to plough ahead with the build regardless of whether it's structurally sound/to my taste and the engineer just wants to certify the whole thing at the end but doesn't want to be involved in any design questions.
Feeling disillusioned with the whole lot of em right now !!!

Are you not just at ground floor level( according to photos)? If you want it which I think you should you should Just tell your builder your putting the insulation on the first floor. End off. Has he priced for the laying of it?

stickybookmark

Cavanjack wrote: »

Are you not just at ground floor level( according to photos)? If you want it which I think you should you should Just tell your builder your putting the insulation on the first floor. End off. Has he priced for the laying of it?

No it was removed at tender stage so he never even priced for it. He was emphatic that it's not needed as the upstairs floor is inside the heated envelope of the house etc.

delfagio

I would TELL him that you insist on putting the insulation on the 1st floor slabs. It will increase the contract price seen as he didn't price for it originally, but I wouldn't imagine by much. You can agree a figure up front between you prior to doing it.

If you went with at least 50mm floor insulation sheets and 50mm perimeter insulation around external walls, it will be much better than no insulation. I have 50mm on my first floor.

It is so much easier to rectify this issue now before its done, than try do it later when it's too late.

Cavanjack

stickybookmark wrote: »

No it was removed at tender stage so he never even priced for it. He was emphatic that it's not needed as the upstairs floor is inside the heated envelope of the house etc.

It's at most two days work for a carpenter to do upstairs (unless it's a hotel your building). I'd advise you to insist on doing it. You definitely need the perimiter insulation anyway.

Sligoronan

stickybookmark wrote: »

No it was removed at tender stage so he never even priced for it. He was emphatic that it's not needed as the upstairs floor is inside the heated envelope of the house etc.

what sort of a genius came up with that.
Who instructed to have it removed off the tender. Did your arch/eng know about this what was there opinion.

stickybookmark

Sligoronan wrote: »

what sort of a genius came up with that.
Who instructed to have it removed off the tender. Did your arch/eng know about this what was there opinion.

the perimeter insulation is there alright it's the floor insulation was taken out.
Builder said because it's all inside the heated envelope of the house it's not needed and he refused to quote for it although we had it on tender spec. I also asked a family member who also has a concrete slab FF and he said yep insulation is only needed in wooden frame FF there's no need for it in concrete slab FF

The AC/Engineer had no opinion on it.

893bet

stickybookmark wrote: »

The AC/Engineer had no opinion on it.

This is common. On here often a question is meet with "what does your eng say" or "your eng should be specing this detail, why are you asking these questions here"

Sadly with many eng/arch you have to second guess details. This is why I sacked off my architect who specified no perimeter insulation as that is only needed if putting in ufh. Builder doing foundations agreed. Engineers also said it was fine with out.

Hence none was put in.

delfagio

Wihoo, finally got our finished liquid floor screed poured today on both ground floor and 1st floor. Looks great so far, feels like we have got another big milestone done now.

homewardbound11

God lads. I'm so glad I got to self build 5 years ago . In putting out for quotations I asked each builder simple questions and from that I decided to go for self build. Shockingly some of the engineers comments were back in 1991.

Recently saw 2 house renovation construction drawings/ plans . One was a total gutting and extension . The other was a large extension doubling of the size. I know they are not required but the construction drawings had 100mm cavity with 60mm insulation and 50mm insulated plaster board on perimeter inner leaf . No effort at all really.

Best of luck ,

Superdaddy

I'm trying to decide on what insulation to put on my first floor. Liquid screed man tells me to put 25mm eps 100. Says its cheaper than PIR and better for sound insulation. Lad selling me the insulation says its cheaper alright but less thermally efficient and the same for sound insulation. I'm putting UFH in 40mm liquid screed. It is sitting on plywood, then engineered eco joists filled with rockwool for sound insulation (after weeks of insulating I really hate fibre glass :mad:). So what are your views? EPS or PIR?

delfagio

Superdaddy wrote:

I'm trying to decide on what insulation to put on my first floor. Liquid screed man tells me to put 25mm eps 100. Says its cheaper than PIR and better for sound insulation. Lad selling me the insulation says its cheaper alright but less thermally efficient and the same for sound insulation. I'm putting UFH in 40mm liquid screed. It is sitting on plywood, then engineered eco joists filled with rockwool for sound insulation (after weeks of insulating I really hate fibre glass ). So what are your views? EPS or PIR?

Hi super daddy,

I am similar to yourself. My build up is as follows;

1.) Open web joists, think they are 274mm deep,
2.) On top of the joists there was 22mm OSB Board sheeting laid for the 1st floor.
3.) 50mm PIR Floor Insulation with UFH pipes and
4.) 50-55mm liquid screed,

stickybookmark

Curious Geroge wrote: »

I can understand removing the insulation in the ground floor ceiling (no point if you have concrete first floor) but the insulation on the FFL under the pipework is a must; did the builder actually remove it ?

Do you have perimeter insulation around the rounds before the screed goes in ?

What height are the ceilings now ? Have you the height to put 20/50mm insulation in?

Which insulation comes in 20mm ?

Superdaddy

delfagio wrote: »

Hi super daddy,

I am similar to yourself. My build up is as follows;

1.) Open web joists, think they are 274mm deep,
2.) On top of the joists there was 22mm OSB Board sheeting laid for the 1st floor.
3.) 50mm PIR Floor Insulation with UFH pipes and
4.) 50-55mm liquid screed,

Thats a pretty serious floor. My joist are 225mm, 18mm WBP.