30 Days as a Muslim

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

the main difference in our points of view are based on the fact that I am a theist whereas you are an atheist and therefore you place little or no importance on the person's faith as long as they're decent.

I'm drawing attention to what Dave says in the film(s). He is a theist, so the division on this point hardly comes from atheism.

the_new_mr wrote:

Wishing that someone embraces Islam and not accepting them as they are worlds apart.

If you wish someone to change faith or, for that matter, change their shirt it means you are not accepting them as they are.

the_new_mr wrote:

I wish they were Muslims first but if they can't be then I'd like them to be like Dave.

Putting words into his mouth, I’d expect Dave might say ‘I’d prefer a person to be a good Muslim than a bad Christian’. (He has already effectively says he sees no difference between being a good Muslim and a good Christian).

Would you prefer Dave to be a good Christian or a bad Muslim?

the_new_mr wrote:

But isn't the best thing I can do is wish for him what I wish for myself?

I’d suspect the best thing is to recognise that he is achieving what you wish, but through a different path. That’s what he recognises in the people he met.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

I'm drawing attention to what Dave says in the film(s). He is a theist, so the division on this point hardly comes from atheism.

And I've already said that a Christian may well get into heaven. That leaves me at a slightly different stand point than Dave obviously. Now, can we stop with the going round in the cirlces?

Schuhart wrote:

If you wish someone to change faith or, for that matter, change their shirt it means you are not accepting them as they are.

I'm sorry you think that. Clearly you don't see my point. I don't think I can elaborate on this any more than I have already so maybe you can read my posts again to try and see what I mean?

Schuhart wrote:

Would you prefer Dave to be a good Christian or a bad Muslim?

I'm pretty sure I'd prefer someone to be a good Christian than a bad Muslim as long as their intention for not being Muslim is sincere (not rejecting it purely for rejection's sake) if ya catch my drift? I would imagine that someone who is a good Christian would be closer to what God wants them to be than a bad Muslim. God knows best.

Schuhart wrote:

I’d suspect the best thing is to recognise that he is achieving what you wish, but through a different path. That’s what he recognises in the people he met.

I still think the best thing you can wish for someone is what you wish for yourself if you sincerely see that what you have is what God wants. There's no shame in that.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

Now, can we stop with the going round in the circles?

I find religious discussion is a bit like travelling to Heathrow Airport. You have to circle about six times before attempting a landing.

the_new_mr wrote:

I would imagine that someone who is a good Christian would be closer to what God wants them to be than a bad Muslim. God knows best.

That is, of course, much the point.

the_new_mr wrote:

And I've already said that a Christian may well get into heaven. That leaves me at a slightly different stand point than Dave obviously.

You’ll appreciate I was questioning that the division in opinion had its source in atheism. I take it that point is dropped.

If both you and Dave mutually admit the other is on a potential path to salvation, why the need for any change? I think that’s the key point still open. What is about beer drinking, pork eating, insurance selling Dave that needs to change?

the_new_mr wrote:

I'm sorry you think that.

You’ll understand, its not so much that I think that. It’s simply that’s what the situation is. You may like Dave, respect his sincerity and uphold his right to be different. But if you want to change him, you’re not accepting him as he is.

the_new_mr wrote:

I still think the best thing you can wish for someone is what you wish for yourself if you sincerely see that what you have is what God wants. There's no shame in that.

Clearly there’s no shame in an honestly held opinion. But I that view is, IMHO, still not really explaining why someone who practices the substance of a decent life is improved by adopting the trappings of this or that religion. This is not an atheist-inspired view, although it may be easier to accept from that perspective. Judged on what he says in the two films, Dave has come to that understanding that what’s important is substance and not form.

wes

Well I watched this a while ago and Dave is a good guy. I am not bothered about anyones religions and I personally view religion as inherited culture in a lot of ways and believe that no one should change or that I should wish them to change. If someone choose to do so and it improves there lives then good for them.

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

You’ll appreciate I was questioning that the division in opinion had its source in atheism. I take it that point is dropped.

I appreciate that point but there is a difference.

Say, for example, a Christian theist sees me as a Muslim. They may wish me to be a Christian but think that I'm still okay as a Muslim. That's a theist's view. Maybe that's the way Dave feels, maybe not. I don't know. Another Christian may see that I can be either Muslim or Christian and that either one is fine and it doesn't matter overall. Maybe that's Dave's view. Maybe not.

On the other hand, an atheist thinks that it doesn't matter either way and that's because he doesn't place that much value on religion in the first place and that's why I was saying that, as an atheist, your position on this is always gonna be different. Dave is either the first or second person. I'm the first person (as a Muslim... obviouisly). And you're the third person.

Schuhart wrote:

If both you and Dave mutually admit the other is on a potential path to salvation, why the need for any change? I think that’s the key point still open. What is about beer drinking, pork eating, insurance selling Dave that needs to change?

First of all, if Dave sincerely wants to be on the path that God wants him to be on then I believe that if he sees it the way I see it then he'd want to be a Muslim. This is just like the people in "Turning Muslim in Texas". I once saw someone filling in a form when they were going to take their Shahada (declaration of faith) and it had a question of "Why do you want to be a Muslim?" The person simply answered: "Because I believe Islam is the religion that Allah wants us to follow". Short, simple and beautiful all at the same time.

The beer drinking and pork eating is covered by the above point (and let's not forget that "the one can lead to the two... can lead to the three..." ). And I don't believe insurance is wrong to do and I'm basing my view on that of Islamic scholars as well as my own personal logic. And God knows best concerning insurance.

Schuhart wrote:

You’ll understand, its not so much that I think that. It’s simply that’s what the situation is.

That's not the way it has to be. To use your t-shirt example:

Say if I don't like to wear red t-shirts or t-shirts with a funny slogan on the back. Say that I don't like to wear t-shirts at all! That doesn't mean I don't accept someone who is wearing a t-shirt. Maybe I have a whole load of logical reasons why they shouldn't wear a t-shirt. That doesn't change the fact that I respect their choice and that's that. It doesn't have to be as black & white as you put it. Part of the life is accepting people and their decisions for who and what they are. I don't see it like you do.

Schuhart wrote:

But I that view is, IMHO, still not really explaining why someone who practices the substance of a decent life is improved by adopting the trappings of this or that religion.

You're really missing the point here completely Schuhart. It's not about being improved. It's about following what God wants him to follow. Simple as that. If I believe that I'm following what God wants me and all humanity to follow then that's what I want for someone else. Especially if they're a nice guy/gal.

Schuhart wrote:

Judged on what he says in the two films, Dave has come to that understanding that what’s important is substance and not form.

Well, as I said already, we can't know for sure whether Dave would want Ameer to be a Christian or not. But we do know that he accepts that, from his point of view, Muslims can find salvation as Muslims. I think he's had a lot of long theological thoughts to himself and good for him for doing so. I'd say he grew a lot as an individual through that whole experience.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

On the other hand, an atheist thinks that it doesn't matter either way and that's because he doesn't place that much value on religion in the first place and that's why I was saying that, as an atheist, your position on this is always gonna be different.

I'd agree that an atheist finds it easier to dismiss the detail of this or that practice - be it taking Communion or praying facing Mecca. But I would point out that there are some theists who do have that view that all religions ultimately head back to the one God.

the_new_mr wrote:

First of all, if Dave sincerely wants to be on the path that God wants him to be on then I believe that if he sees it the way I see it then he'd want to be a Muslim.

I (finally!!)think you are right that we won't be able to close the gap any more on this one. I suppose at least we have agreed that the empty practice of any faith is pointless.

the_new_mr wrote:

(and let's not forget that "the one can lead to the two... can lead to the three..." ).

He must have tried it sometime.