The Rambo look for target shooting!

maglite

i think this military clothing can be very easaly narrowed to brittish/american hardwoods style camo

flecktarn and other distruptive's would not be see as sinister

http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/dpm/dpcfs1na100.jpg

http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/graphics/flecktarn/flccs1na100.jpg

http://images.google.ie/images?q=tbn:oBWrlmOLpb3OtM:http://www.ifurn.com/xmodels/eliteproducts/ctpinkh.jpg

http://images.google.ie/images?q=tbn:4QXQTd4134Qz-M:http://lulubelle-boutique.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/camo%2520tee_larg.jpg

http://images.google.ie/images?q=tbn:xVmkCiteulbzWM:http://kelticklankirk.com/Army_Combat_Uniform_Neo_Confederate_Rebel_Grey_Patrol_Cap_big.jpg

civdef

Couple of guys in my club wear full uniforms from multiple nations, down to the rank markings.

Can't have anyone mistaking them for grunts, can we?

civdef

A cammo trousers, cap or jacket on it's own isn't as bad as the all-over camo effort.

One item could be just because it's comfortable / practical etc. All-over is fancy dress.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

if we truly want to promote our sport we wouldn't be creating this divide

We didn't. It's being imposed on us from outside. The same place our funding comes from and our laws get imposed from.

Yes Joe Public sees people in camo and thinks IRA etc etc but surely if the target shooting community put a ban on it they are only confirming what the public believes, wearing camo=someone up to no good.

My point, veg, was that that is precisely what they already believe. Our denial of it, no matter how stringent, would not erase that. In fact, our denial would only cause them to think that they were right and we were trying to whitewash it.

There are sound practical reasons also. I shoot in a real tree camo jacket, a particular item of clothing that is quite bulky but gives great weather protection and hides me well. Now if I want to practice with my rifle in this jacket it has to be at a range (at least very shortly it will be). The target shooting community might as well call me a militant so what am I to do.

Show up in a T-shirt and jeans with the jacket in the kitbag. Put it on only on the line; put it back in the bag before you wander away. Same as the ISSF people do for their jackets and trousers on the range (We wear leggings and t-shirts underneath). The point being that if you're there to train with it on, it's not a garment, it's a piece of kit.
That's not a perfect solution, but it's the best I can think up in five minutes. There would, no doubt, be better ones by those who think about it longer.

If people had said ban camo patterns as worn by the worlds armies and terrorist groups, then I would have been on board from the start.

Military camo is like military calibres - it's a meaningless term because you just know that someone, somewhere, has used that pattern or something indistinguishable from it for military purposes.
Besides which, do you really think that Joe Public knows the difference between DRM and RealTree?

If a member of Joe Public turns up at the range and a guy is wearing realtree camo gear (which he had or had not never seen before). I bet his first re-action would be "Cool that camo has pictures of trees and leaves on it" or "Why's that person wearing strange camo at the range?" Then the person who brought him/her to the range should explain that its a camo patter very popular with hunters and fishermen and not worn by any army.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. Not in Ireland, they don't. (Please note, I said don't, not wouldn't).

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

We didn't. It's being imposed on us from outside. The same place our funding comes from and our laws get imposed from.

So people from the "outside" banned camo at ranges. No i don't think they did. They may have a poor view of camo which influenced the decision making process but outsiders don't write the dress codes for the ranges. The owners did

Show up in a T-shirt and jeans with the jacket in the kitbag. Put it on only on the line; put it back in the bag before you wander away. Same as the ISSF people do for their jackets and trousers on the range (We wear leggings and t-shirts underneath). The point being that if you're there to train with it on, it's not a garment, it's a piece of kit.
That's not a perfect solution, but it's the best I can think up in five minutes. There would, no doubt, be better ones by those who think about it longer.

I treat my hunting clothing as kit and while i appreciate the effort to come up with a soultion, it would still be breaking the club rules because they are being drafted poorly.

Military camo is like military calibres - it's a meaningless term because you just know that someone, somewhere, has used that pattern or something indistinguishable from it for military purposes.
Besides which, do you really think that Joe Public knows the difference between DRM and RealTree?


Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. Not in Ireland, they don't. (Please note, I said don't, not wouldn't).

The average Joe Public has no clue how to safely handle a firearm either so what business do they have at a range if not to learn? Surely its not too much effort to explain RealTree to them, or would you rather leave them keep their opinion of all camo = evil. When an average Joe Public comes to a range it is to learn, that is our chance as a safe and educated shooting community to educate them.

Please note the media is not the averge Joe as they have their own interests and even if we all dressed in plain clothes they'd spin it against us.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

So people from the "outside" banned camo at ranges.

No, the people from the outside decided that camo looked dodgy on people at a shooting range.

I treat my hunting clothing as kit and while i appreciate the effort to come up with a soultion, it would still be breaking the club rules because they are being drafted poorly.

Then you volunteer to draft better ones.

The average Joe Public has no clue how to safely handle a firearm either so what business do they have at a range if not to learn?

Well, these gentlemen from the OCI were officiating at a match:


And the parents and spectators who show up to take a peek at our matches are there to take a peek - not to stand there and be given a lecture on the minutae of our sport.

Veg, let's be clear here - this is not about the final resolution in the minds of joe public to something after much time and deliberation and learning - this is about first impressions. Which quite a lot, are last impressions for our sport, especially with the media.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

No, the people from the outside decided that camo looked dodgy on people at a shooting range.

Outsiders think a lot of things are dodgy, learner drivers, young males who wear hoodies, north siders etc etc etc

Then you volunteer to draft better ones.

Yes. No ban on clothing unless it poses a danger to others at the range or the user himself.

Well, these gentlemen from the OCI were officiating at a match:


And the parents and spectators who show up to take a peek at our matches are there to take a peek - not to stand there and be given a lecture on the minutae of our sport.

Veg, let's be clear here - this is not about the final resolution in the minds of joe public to something after much time and deliberation and learning - this is about first impressions. Which quite a lot, are last impressions for our sport, especially with the media.

The above are hardly average Joe Public, especially the media or the OCI. They are all linked to shooting somehow either by an interest in it (why else would they spectate), a friend or a relative.

Look judging someone because of the clothes they wear is wrong. Just like being judged because of our sport is wrong.

If someone within your community called you a gun owning nutter ala Dunblane just because you own a firearm you'd be pretty annoyed.

When I get associated with the IRA and the likes because I wear camo its all ok though. I just expected a little more understanding fro mother shooters i suppose.

If you are willing to accept that sort of treatment fine, but I don't. Regardless of what the public may think of it.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

Look judging someone because of the clothes they wear is wrong. Just like being judged because of our sport is wrong.

I agree, completely, with both of those statements. I think everyone else does as well.

Thing is, the world's an unfair place and wrong things happen all the bloody time, and if we want to make the best of it, we have to work with it as it is, not demand it works with us. Because it's a damn sight bigger and more powerful than we are, and if we demand it works with us, it may do so - by making the rules for us.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

I agree, completely, with both of those statements. I think everyone else does as well.

Thing is, the world's an unfair place and wrong things happen all the bloody time, and if we want to make the best of it, we have to work with it as it is, not demand it works with us. Because it's a damn sight bigger and more powerful than we are, and if we demand it works with us, it may do so - by making the rules for us.

Unfortunately you are correct, it is bigger than us and year in year out we try and claw a bit more respect and acceptance. That doesn't mean I have to like the rules though. This is forum where I get to vent and express my opinions.

I am no fool, on the range I will wear my low alpine fleece my jeans and boots and obey the rules as not to panic the flock.

Sparks

That doesn't mean I have to like the rules though.

Damn right!
Maybe one day we'll be big enough to change the way things are, but for now...

sidneyreilly

Just to point out the only way we are going to get new people into the sport is by getting Joe Public on the ranges.

Have to say I agree with the "camo ban" on range for this very reason.

coffeepot

Just to make it clear. I dont have a problem with people weaing camo gear or military clothing in places where the public will not see them. I don't judge a book by its cover, but others do, that is the problem. I fear for our sport, that is the only reason that I don't like it. In a perfect world people would not judge us on first impressions, but it is not perfect. Sometimes the army clothing is taken to extreams, and I think some people are lacking something, but if the public don't see them I don't care! I don't think an issue like this should devide us. As Sparks said it is a small price to pay!

astraboy

I would agree that someone head to toe in DPM at a target shooting range would appear sinister or maybe even a little childish, as if they thought they were in a game. Maybe some people need to get into a frame of mind for shooting, if putting on some camo gear makes them a better, safer shooter then let them be. As with most aspects in life there will be those that over kill, a quiet word from the club chairman or whoever is in charge of the range should sort this. We don't need the public getting a view of gung ho shooters in our sport, however placing silly restrictions in clubs would just be a knee jerk reaction to a threat that is probably small. How many people not interested in shooting, or without a close relative or friend involved, will step onto a range? Very few I woud imagine.

coffeepot

There are generally only a few simple safety rules o most ranges. If you obey these rules you will be safe on a range. If you feel you need to wear DPM to be “safer”, you have a problem.

The “silly restrictions” you refer to are already in place in many shooting clubs and organisations across the country.


You are correct, not many people who do not shoot appear on ranges, but when they do it is often the only time that they see real guns in civilian hands so it is important to give a good first impression.

astraboy

coffeepot wrote:

You are correct, not many people who do not shoot appear on ranges, but when they do it is often the only time that they see real guns in civilian hands so it is important to give a good first impression.

I'll agree with you there, I just reckon you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. A few general restrictions are ok, but I reckon it can be taken too far and next thing people are forced to wear attire they are not comfortable shooting in. Each to their own I say, I have full DPM gear but this is from the RDF and I would only ever use this gear when on an RDF shoot. One piece of camo clothing I would not consider sinister, maybe people are after becoming too sensitive. Like someone said earlier, I would be more concerned that the person is well versed in safety procedures and is confident and sure while handling their weapon, not nervous and unsure which can lead to accidents. A poor shooter will remain so no matter what they wear.

D'ont believe I am rubbishing your point of view, I just feel it is too rigid and also we have bigger things to worry about with the restricted firearms list being drafted. We can and should always pourtray a prefessional and safe attitude to the public but I feel banning camo clothing will do little, of anything to achieve this. Allowing more people to travel to ranges, undertake safety training and use some firearms could achieve this and also help the sport grow, which can only be a good thing.

Clare gunner

coffeepot wrote:

So Clare Gunner can I take it that you think that all of the clubs and shooting orginisations around the country that have banned the wearing of military type clothing on ranges and in competitions have no justification whatsoever for doing this?

Quite frankly,yes.it is a ridicilous assumption that because on a target range,a guy is wearing a m65 cammo jacket,and cammo pants that he is a nut in the making.Maybe he is a newbie,spending more money on his rifle &kit than his fashion looks.
Or he is wearing Bundeswehr flecktarn rain gear,he is a looper[German Flecktarn is GORTEX,so it is a 1/4 of the cost of civvie Gortex].

I would also put it down to a snobbishness by some as well who are running these clubs.

Look,I am sure if you go to "snob hill rifle range" that it will have a dress code,of whatever.Fine.If you can afford the membership,you can afford the best kit as well,and you wont be too worried about price.
However,in "Joe Average,run what ya brung range,"where we dont have membership of clubs and guys/gals just want to shoot,and we depend on their custom,is it smart to start handing them a blazer &tie in the enterance door,or saying sir/madam is inappropriately dressed to compete on our range???A uniform dress code can have the exact opposite effect as well in making it look to joe public this is elitist snobbery only intrested in winning olympic golds.This is supposed to be fun first and foremost!!!Lest we forget.

I have to say that I have not personally seen the shooters who dress up as soldiers wearing face paint. However having seen the extremes some of them go to I would not be surprised if some of them wear it in front of the mirror at home. I have no problem with that, consenting “adults” (?)… privacy of your own home etc.:D

Check out the airsoft matches and mags about them.


See my bottom post on this;

Ok just to throw another one across your bows.:D What do YOU think of the airsoft and reancator lot????Now THERE is everything you must hate??Fantasists dressed up in cammo pretending they are military units of various nations and epochs?[ww2,Korea,Nam,Desert storm,etc]armed with full auto weapons[that shoot bbs we know]but try and differentate that to Joe Public that the full auto SAW the banker is playing with is a glorified toy.

I mean have you read the mag airsoft monthly in Easons??
THAT is an image that damages shooting.
How about the bloke that spends all his time getting all his kit together that every inch of it is a genuine uniform from whatever epoch of history he/she is repersenting??In some parts of the civilised world reenactors do compete with genuine periodic weapons in uniform of their times.IE [Union&Confederate musket matchs].Now are they anymore dangerous than others?I mean somone who spends his and encourages their family to spend time dressed up in periodic costumes of the last centuary must be abit bats ,right?Should they be let near a black powder gattling gun??

How about cowboy action shooting??Nuts who wish they were living in a romantisised era of American history,and dress up like so and shoot targets as well with real guns.Got to be fantasists too,and dangerous as well.I mean they could rob the local AIB and make a getaway on horseback?[Possible in Limerick or Ballymun I suppose?:D]

It comes back to what Joe/Jane Public wants to read or is told ,or sees for them selves into about the sport.
To use Graucho Marxs words.I wouldnt join a club that would have me as a member.I wouldnt join a club that is more picky about my dress sense than how well and safely I shoot.The last thing I want is to be botherd by the PC range fashion police when I am trying to enjoy myself and concentrate on getting them in the 10X.

Rafer

Well Said ! Clare Gunner.
Common sense should prevail . The range that I shoot on is exposed to whatever the heavens throw at us and also very muddy . We dont dont have covered firing points either. I have some ex military gore tex and a fantastic pair Austrian army boots that I wear when shooting . I wear the boots all the time shooting (Hunting and Range ). Gore tex when the weather dictates. Safety First all the time , followed by sport and enjoyment .
And if Joe Public has a problem with that .
Well it's his Problem.!
PS
Coffeepot Try cutting back on your intake.;)
Live your own Life !

astraboy

Rafer wrote:

Live your own Life !

Damn right! As for the airsoft crowd, its very similar to paintballing. I have never been in an airsoft scirmish but have used paintballing on an annual basis with my RDF company to practice tactics and have a bit of fun. I see no problem with the airsoft crowd, have a look at the fourm and you'll see they won't cause any harm. Its only toys(legally) that are being used anyway. Once these people keep the scirmishes to the proper areas, which are away from "mr Joe public" anyway there won't be a problem.

kowloon

It should all be allowed at halloween though

coffeepot

To be honest I have not seen the magazines that you refer to, but I think I know what you mean. Yeah I think it is a bit sad, but I think that it is important to remember that these people are not using the dangerous combination of real guns and live ammunition. When you have a real gun and you are using real ammunition, even if it is .22lr, you have a firearm that could easily kill a person. This is why you must act in a way that shows that you are not unbalanced to the public. However airsoft guns don’t kill very easily so I would see people armed with them as being very different that someone with lets say a .308

People taking part in simulating battles in history, is something very different. They are deliberately doing it for the pleasure of the crowd. People have come specifically to see them. It is like a way to remember the dead, and the heroics of some of them.

The odd bit of army gear here or there I don’t see as much of an issue. It is the guy that goes completely overboard that I see as the problem. You cant really have a rule that says “the odd bit of army gear from time to time is ok…..”

As I have tried to explain before I DON’T CARE what people wear, when the non shooting public cant see them! I don’t agree with judging a book by its cover, but unfortunately many people do! We cant change that, so we should just work with it. We have .308 rifles (and more) now, we have pistols, I never thought we would see the day. This is a small price to pay. Lets do everything we can to protect what we have.

Furthermore, I am not suggesting a dress code for shooting. I am only saying lets try to give a good first impression of shooting to non shooters by not looking like some sort of resistance movement. Why should that be such a big deal? Many clubs and organisations across the country agree with this. Wearing of DPM etc. for hunting makes so much sense, I agree. But the guy who looks like he is ready for parade inspection with his Sig (€ 2,200) on his hip and € 3,000 .308 driving a Porsche that tries to tell me he can only afford military clothing, come on! I admit that type of person is in the minority, but it takes just one and you all know the type!

Surely all or most of you agree with some of what I am saying!

Clare gunner

coffeepot wrote:

To be honest I have not seen the magazines that you refer to, but I think I know what you mean. Yeah I think it is a bit sad, but I think that it is important to remember that these people are not using the dangerous combination of real guns and live ammunition. When you have a real gun and you are using real ammunition, even if it is .22lr, you have a firearm that could easily kill a person. This is why you must act in a way that shows that you are not unbalanced to the public. However airsoft guns don’t kill very easily so I would see people armed with them as being very different that someone with lets say a .308

Have a look at them or go to an airsoft meet then come back and tell us who is more dangerous to an image of shooting in Ireland.

OH DUH!!! I never realised that airsoft were not real guns,and sorry to say people HAVE been killed with airsoft,blank fireres and paintball guns or greviously injured as well.Just because it is a "toy" it is not dangerous,is avery stupid assumption to have about any firearms..And personally said I would be more worried about chacters pretending that they are some sort of elite unit running around the forest with their toy guns,practiseing military drill,and imageing they are on the streets of Bagdad or wherever,I would NOT give any of them anything more leathl than a feather duster.

People taking part in simulating battles in history, is something very different. They are deliberately doing it for the pleasure of the crowd. People have come specifically to see them. It is like a way to remember the dead, and the heroics of some of them.

Thats your take on it,and the most of 98% of the sane people out there as well.BUTthere are 2% out there that are trying to ban this as well as it glorifies war,blah,blah etc.Sp why would reenactors give their antis more ammo by letting their total lives be taken over by their hobby???

The odd bit of army gear here or there I don’t see as much of an issue. It is the guy that goes completely overboard that I see as the problem. You cant really have a rule that says “the odd bit of army gear from time to time is ok…..”

Would you care to elaborate on this?What is the odd bit of army gear??A webbing belt?a parka OD or cammo.What is compleatly overboard in your opinion??

As I have tried to explain before I DON’T CARE what people wear, when the non shooting public cant see them! I don’t agree with judging a book by its cover, but unfortunately many people do! We cant change that, so we should just work with it. We have .308 rifles (and more) now, we have pistols, I never thought we would see the day. This is a small price to pay. Lets do everything we can to protect what we have.

So by banning people from wearing certain clothes we assure the shooting sports of Ireland???? RIGHT sign me right up!!!If this gets us in the category of the US gun laws or Switzerland.I'm your man! NOT!!!! It will take a Hell of alot more than that to assure our sport here. What would be a worse image,a cammoed up hunter dragging Bambi out of the forest all bloddy, or the shell suited Homeboy brigade on your range,or a guy popping paper targets on the range wearing a cammo pants and T shirt.
An appeaser is a man who will feed all the others before him to the crocidiles,in the vain hope that he will be spared last.[Winston Churchill]
What I am saying is ;we cannot keep on appeasing the public on our images.Whats next when the next person pops up and says;I dont like mags over 15 shots in pistols???or that semi autos have no place in shooting sports??Dont laugh this has happened and already is happening.But it is all worthwhile and a small price to pay for keeping "somones"sector of shooting sports going.

Furthermore, I am not suggesting a dress code for shooting. I am only saying lets try to give a good first impression of shooting to non shooters by not looking like some sort of resistance movement.

FYI resistance movements never wore cammo.It is usually instant death to be doing such in a resistance unit of a country under military occupation.

Why should that be such a big deal? Many clubs and organisations across the country agree with this.

Because you are looking at a minor symptom of a more deadly disease.Say worring about your acne when you have cancer.

Wearing of DPM etc. for hunting makes so much sense, I agree. But the guy who looks like he is ready for parade inspection with his Sig (€ 2,200) on his hip and € 3,000 .308 driving a Porsche that tries to tell me he can only afford military clothing, come on! I admit that type of person is in the minority, but it takes just one and you all know the type!

Well, maybe THAT is exactly why he can afford the Porsche,Sig and whatnot.
He is spending it on the right things revelant to shooting[bar the Porsche]
Not worrying about the frippiries.

Can I ask you,have you EVER gone up to any of these people and asked them WHY they are dressed in mil garb????Maybe you might get an answer,and I am sure all of us would be most intrested on your findings.

Maybe suggest that it is giving shooters a bad name and see what they say??I,would have been asking the dude who was wearing the water bottle a few posts back why he was doing such?Maybe he suffers from dehydration,has a medical condition and needs water fast?Or whatever.

So what was the Porsche dude wearing that made him look like he was on parade? And how does one case of possible,sensible financial spending make for a sterotype?
It sounds like the old chestnut of the all car tuners are boyracer speed freaks ,accident prone, rap listening wigga types.It just takes one tuned up Honda Civic with 4 young fellas doing donuts in the local carpark to make out the 40 year old guy down the road with his 50k customised corolla is the same type of speed merchant.

Surely all or most of you agree with some of what I am saying!

Going by the poll it is 50/50

Leupold

I think the best way to resolve this debate to the satisfaction of all parties is for the people who like cammo to wear the newly developed "Shooters digital cammo" . This has been developed especially for wear on target ranges. I understand is is very effective, so effective that there could have been people wearing it on your range recentely, you just did not see them. I am told the jackets reverse to blaze orange so that they can safely go up range during a cease fire.
The attached photo shows how good the cammo is. There are 25 people in the photo and 4 of them are wearing the new "shooters digital cammo"

astraboy

Clare gunner wrote:

An appeaser is a man who will feed all the others before him to the crocidiles,in the vain hope that he will be spared last.[Winston Churchill]
What I am saying is ;we cannot keep on appeasing the public on our images.Whats next when the next person pops up and says;I dont like mags over 15 shots in pistols???or that semi autos have no place in shooting sports??Dont laugh this has happened and already is happening.But it is all worthwhile and a small price to pay for keeping "somones"sector of shooting sports going.



It sounds like the old chestnut of the all car tuners are boyracer speed freaks ,accident prone, rap listening wigga types.It just takes one tuned up Honda Civic with 4 young fellas doing donuts in the local carpark to make out the 40 year old guy down the road with his 50k customised corolla is the same type of speed merchant.

Both very good points man. I was going to mention the image of boy racers verses the guys that value their cars and are into motorsport as it is an area that concerns me, and I feel some thing similar may be going on with those in this sport. Most people on the street would know little about shooting, all the information they have is based on often unrealisitic films and media pourtrayls. This makes it very easy to sterotype. A way of preventing this is for everyone, from the shooting associations to each gun club to promtoe a positive image.

This should, however, not mean we compromise our newly gained ability to further our enjoyment of the sport and change our image to appease(as you so well put it) a few people that will never see our sport as one to be enjoyed by all who wish to do so within proper boundaries. If we try and please every whinging tom, dick and harry we will get no where. Maybe we are blowing up how people precieve us. The people from my locality have no issues with the gun club, I reckon it is a minority that shouts very loud.

We need to do whatever we can to preserve our sport and display a professional and safe image, as with most things a happy middle ground will need to be found.

Sparks

How many of those saying Camo should be allowed and damn the public's first impressions are actually running clubs/ranges or shooting bodies?

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

How many of those saying Camo should be allowed and damn the public's first impressions are actually running clubs/ranges or shooting bodies?

How many in this forum against camo on ranges are doing this?

Sparks

Well, I am, for a start.

Leupold

coffeepot wrote:

I think that all military type clothing should be banned in target shooting clubs. It gives a very thuggish image to target shooting as a sport.

So all of the people in the PDF and the RDF are thugs?

Sparks

Yes Leupold, that's precisely what he was trying to say. :rolleyes:

Leupold

Any one from these fine organisations want to respond to this accusation from Coffeepot, confirmed by Sparks?

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Yes Leupold, that's precisely what he was trying to say. :rolleyes:

I know he didn't mean it like that and you know he didn't mean it like that, but not everyone will.

As Clare Gunner points out, you have to be very carefull what we willingfully throw away to keep the public happy (we are not even 100% certain it would do any good)