Gender Orientation ...nature or nurture?

Filan

Ok....I'll start a gender orientation thread here...
In my opinion society conditionns male and females to behave in distinct and separate roles. My question is how much of the societal difference between male and female is due to nurture or nature?. Do many men dress/behave in certain way purely for fear of ridicule?. Do gay/lesbian and transsexuality really belong under the same umbrella as they often stand?. I'm considered by many friends to be quite androgynous....effeminate in outward ways such as liking fashion...make up etc....but firmly straight....and the topic of gender orientation....are boys and girls simply trained to behave in a different way or are their minds distinctly different from birth? this topic fascinates me.
Thats my thread! Alan

LegacyUser

Filan wrote:

Ok....I'll start a gender orientation thread here...
In my opinion society conditionns male and females to behave in distinct and separate roles. My question is how much of the societal difference between male and female is due to nurture or nature?. Do many men dress/behave in certain way purely for fear of ridicule?. Do gay/lesbian and transsexuality really belong under the same umbrella as they often stand?. I'm considered by many friends to be quite androgynous....effeminate in outward ways such as liking fashion...make up etc....but firmly straight....and the topic of gender orientation....are boys and girls simply trained to behave in a different way or are their minds distinctly different from birth? this topic fascinates me.
Thats my thread! Alan

If Transsexuals don't put themselves under the same umbrella as LGB then what chance do they have? There's no other support. Ts are too far between. I don't think it's that different - they face many of the same issues. Homophobia usually applies to Transgenderism even more than it does to homosexuals.

I really think this board should be called LGBT not LGB I'm really offended that it isn't.

Hmm_Messiah

If the topic fascinates you you should look up research material on the web, as you seem to be looking for specific answers rather than people's opinions. And anyways in this mater many people's "opinions" are far removed from the facts, the realities .

Your statement of being firmly straight suggests yet again some one anxious to assert their sexuality in a forum where no one cares less what your sexuality is. Many people seeing any term used only as a label anyways.

You also seem to be confusing sexual orientation and gender roles, and gender identity. ITs way too big a topic for a small brain like mine but gender role is societal and nurture clearly enough ( "role" as a term suggests this), identity is interspective how you see yourself, so can be nature (your brain chemistry) but also what you internalise form environment, family etc. orientation: to be honest no one knows what makes some one gay or straight or whatever.

(1)My question is how much of the societal difference between male and female is due to nurture or nature?. (2) Do many men dress/behave in certain way purely for fear of ridicule?. (3)Do gay/lesbian and transsexuality really belong under the same umbrella as they often stand?. (4) I'm considered by many friends to be quite androgynous....effeminate in outward ways such as liking fashion...make up etc....but firmly straight

....


(1) no one can quantify that
(2) Fairly much so yea, some people dress to conform, others to be nonconformist (curiously the nonconformists then conform with each other -e.g. Goths all look alike etc etc (setting myself for some Goth to dispute this)
(3) I personally think they don't. transexuality is very much more concerned with indentity and gender. being gay is a "smaller" part of who you are, " transexualilt" to some degree is about who you are conflicting with the physicality of who you are etc. The problems associated with each is different also.
(4) Nothing too unusual there.

Nevyn

Gender role are not taught to us but imprinted on us as we look around the world at a very young age.
Gender role have been shifting but it is still going to take time before when asked to picture in your mind a garda or a electrian you don't think of a man and when you are asked to picture a nurse or a primary school teacher and you don't think of a woman.

Do we limit ourselves based on the gender roles we see around us ?
I would say yes unless we are taught differently or taught to question.

Filan

I suppose I'm slightly anxious in talking about my arguably 'transsexual' feelings here....although my face can't be seen I am a regular poster to other forums..my brother is actually here somewhere...not sure of his alias...and it's a feeling that not many members of the public understand...it would be good to make contact with other people who feel similar....has been quite confusing...conformity required in certain situations versus being myself....I do have a few friends who are quite accepting....but I suppose it's unrealistic to expect people to understand something which most have had no experience of.

Hmm_Messiah

Alan

A very brave post under any circumstance, more so in the ones you described. At the same time not a subject you should increase your anxiety about, leave other people's attitudes at the door, its find to feel anything, the only concern ever is to be you at your fullest and healthiest in all aspects.

You don't say your age but regardless there is a who world of emotions/feelings.confusion regarding who we are, not limited to teenage years -and what you feel and think now might not be who you are eventually.

I can see how support would be a help, I know others have posted contacts in the past, maybe the are listed in the stickies at the top of the forum .

In anthing its importtant to identify the individual parts of what make you comfortable - by that I mean ; - as an example if you tend towards transexual feelings you might explain what about it makes you more comfortable, eg may its only oner factor rather than feeling you have to take on the who thing, a consideration espcially with somethign as lifechanging as transsexuality.

I am slightly surprised to then see you mention being straight in your post. I know there are variations of all kinds in sexuality but my limited knowledge of transexual (M-F) are that they consider themselves straight but female so their would wish for a male partner. Maybe I read you wrong but you post seemed to suggest a guy "firmly straight" as in into girls, but with transsexual tendencies ??

I hope you find the help/support you need. Keep searching until you do. But again if you are young I'd caution that you would need counselling profesisonally in the long run to identify whats really in your head |:)

Filan

Thanks...I'm 28...and not really into labels...whether transsexual is the right term I don't know....terminology isn't really that important to me. Yes I'm sexually attracted to women....and well if I had the body would rather look like a woman....that's really what I feel....whether my habits are male like I don't know...my habit's and mindset in other ways dosen't really bother me....but yeah I see girls and want to look like them....that's what I mean by conditioning...is wrong for a man to want to dress in a way similar to a woman....?....Don't actively cross dress as I don't have the figure....just wear hippy style clothing...and wear some female accessories....dye my hair etc....Had to laugh yesterday....david Bowie wore a dress some years ago and was asked why he was wearing a womans dress...he replied "It's not a woman's dress...it's a man's dress! " Spot in my view....

Hmm_Messiah

I understand not being into labels but some times the "terminology" is important mate. For understanding/commnication and well in this case... you seemt o be talking about transvestitism - dressing as a woman /makeup etc, very very far removed from transexualism.

is wrong for a man to want to dress in a way similar to a woman

nope

Filan

Well it's an issue that has confused me a lot.....and I have read a lot on the topic....Yes I would rather have been born female...most of my friends have always been female....love most things feminine and while i do have a few male friends most of my circle has always been female. As a child I always wanted to dress like a girl...this isn't a recent feeling...Have tried to reach accomodation and adapt...but feel distinctly now as though I just don't fit into conventional society....well by being open at times has led to a lot of acceptance in some quarters...more so by women...but would never be accepted within my own family....don't know really....what I say might make sense...it might not but that's how I feel.

geminijohn

Hi Filan,
Just logged on to this thread and as someone who has struggled with my gender identity for many years I think I can probably empathise with what you are experiencing. I went through much of what you describe for many years myself. I know its not easy. However, there is help available - there is an active peer support group now established here in Ireland for transgendered / transsexual persons both male to female and female to male. Details are available on www.teni.ie. Support group meetings are held in Dublin and Cork. In the group there is the opportunity to explore you feelings in a safe, open and non-judgemental environment. You might find it helpful and worth looking into,

Filan

Thanks GeminiJohn...it's good to finally hear from someone who can relate to what I experience...I know there is people out there....and want to make contact with them...so thanks....I'll certainly Email the site and take it from there. A

Filan

Have now made contact with the t.e.n.i. and find them a very productive link...quite a surreal feeling talking to a transgender organisation...but we definitely share at least some common ground. Hopefully they will help me clarify who I am...in time...confusion reigns at moment

Filan

ok I realise that this isn't officially a transgender site...but feeling quite low the past few days....have been slowly telling people how I feel...as felt it had to be done....however support services exist only in Cork and Dublin....have 2 good friends...but a difficult time....if I went to a G.P. I'm sure would be deemed depressed....it feels like dammed if I do...dammed if I don't...continue to suppress my feelings...and I will be upset....express them and a lot of doors close....one day at a time....but rarely this low

Nevyn

It is not offically not a transgendered site...

I am glad you took the time to get in touch with t,e,n,i, and I hope they will be a help to you.

This can be a tryig time of year for a lot of people until spring returns,
There is nothing wrong with having a down day or a down week,
we are not ment to be delirously happy all the time we would crack up.

I would suggest that you keep a journal of these times and make sure you take the time to relish and enjoy the simples things in life like your favourite choclate bar, a long bath, a walk in the crisp air and tasty sandwhich.

Despite the drama of our lives somethings are good reguardless.
Chin up.

Filan

Have the past few weeks made contact with quite a lot of transsexual support...and while much fog persists...I am without doubt learning..and have undoubted gender issues...which it due to boards that I am in a position to potentially resolve...thanks boards founders!

Acid_Violet

Hope this thread isn't dead........

I'm very interested in the ould nature Vs. nurture on the broad scale, not solely regarding to homosexuality. To put it simply (though things are rarely this simple) I think it's mixture of both, ie. dictated by hormones and what you've been influenced by during your life.

This may be a bit controversial but I'll go on as many people agree with me on this. I know that there are a lot of teenage girls who claim to be bisexual also, which I find rather questionable. I think it's as simple as they do it for guys to notice them more in many cases but also I'd say that social influence has a huge role to play. In the whle of society and the media particularly and even in children's tv programmes, a stereotypical attractive (blonde and busty usually, we all have an idea of what I'm talking about) woman is portrayed as all that's desirable to be/have. You learn that as the definition of attractive, to an extent, so I suspect that girls picked up on that sort of thing and that influences them to act accordingly aswell.

Filan

while I'm sceptical of nurture affecting sexual orientation I do believe it is significant in the area of gender dysphoria. Many of the people I have encountered are less concerned with their genitalia, more the societal expectations of their birth gender did not match their own inclinations. Personaly I am not bothered by being a biological male, but I have never felt comfortable looking or behaving as our society deems a man should. Although the situation has improved I still feel that codes of conduct governing each gender are artificialy restricted. These codes are what led many within the T-S community to question who they are. Deviance is frowned upon, boys are trained not to play with dolls, not wear make up, to like woodwork rather than sewing, to be the breadwinner rather than domestic. I question whether much of these differences are nurture and not nature. I accept that a majority of males can conform without great difficulty to the male role as prescribed, likewise with females, however why should it be so unacceptable if one can't ? Conditioning i feel plays a huge role is moulding human behaviour and preserving norms. . Boys and girls are different but i don't feel that they are that different, not before nurture intervenes.

Whether this has any role in the area of sexual orientation i am sceptical, but perhaps others have opinions?

Schuhart

If we're talking pure biology, then I expect our modern way of life has very little to do with biological determination. Presumably, what many of us might see as the traditional way of life our parents followed of mom in the home, kids in school and dad popping off to waged employment is a way of life that only existed in the past few hundred years.

I'm not saying that previous societies would not have had distinct gender roles. Just that, indeed, the idea that boy stuff is playing sport and girl stuff is all about clothes must be seen as something that could only be present in an 'advanced' society - however 'advanced' is defined.

FWIW, I'd see gender and sexual orientation as two separate, but not necessarily entirely unrelated, things. I'd see it as a kind of matrix. Someone might be a hetrosexual transvestite or homosexual transvestite, or somewhere along the line in between. Alternatively, someone might have a very clear sense of their biological gender, but equally be anywhere along the sexual orientation scale from hetrosexual to homosexual. I know that doesn't catch every option (for the sake of argument, someone who changes gender and feels they are hetrosexual from the perspective of that gender). But, in broad strokes, that's how I'd see it.

Filan

Hi Schuhart, I broadly agree with your viewpoints...think that nature is matrix to be honest, very very imprecise with vast variations. When the human race was born, (however that occured!) there wasn't a manual as to how people should behave, either in terms of gender or sexual orientation....evolution dictated that certain codes of behaviour were advantageous...and norms emerged...which were disadvantageous to resist...so people were nurtured and conditioned to stay within these norms. All very fine if one can though, most probably can remain within these artifical paramaters without that much conflict, I can't though....as they just don't allow me to lead the life that I want....I am very feminine acting...and behave very much like a 'normal' female...that dosen't mean that I necessarily need to be a female...but I do need to follow the lifestyle that feels natural for me...which would be similar to that of many women..why should I be forced to live a lifestyle that makes me feel uncomfortable?.. should this really be wrong? Should it really be wrong for some men to want to live more like women and still remain male?. Unfortunately acceptance of this lifestyle is very limited due to nurture. Society is nurtured to think of male and females as distinctly differently...for people who openly contravene these boundaries acceptance is a struggle. Transsexuals have told me that people will accept someone who is either masculine or feminine but not both....I am both....and not an easy place to be...as society has conditioned people to stigmatise such...a male body but a very feminine personality with overwhelmingly typicaly feminine interests...incidentally women tend to ne more accepting...a lot of women accept me...but not many men...any suggestions as to why that might be the case? Anyway yeah everyone's brain is different, the idea of conformity is artifical , man made. Nature is a matrix...nurture created conformity..unfortunately I can't conform to my gender expectation.

Schuhart

Filan wrote:

Should it really be wrong for some men to want to live more like women and still remain male?

I'd say there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I think we do more readily accept women entering into space traditionally associated with men than the reverse. That said, I'm sure that people would point out that the acceptance of women into certain spheres is a pretty recent phenomenon. Its still an evolving situation.

Filan wrote:

incidentally women tend to be more accepting...a lot of women accept me...but not many men...any suggestions as to why that might be the case?

I'd speculate that a woman forming a friendship with a man with feminine characteristics may not face the same kind of societal pressures as a man in the same circumstances. Perhaps a man in that situation would feel a worry that to associate with an effeminate person casts a doubt on their own orientation. (You'll understand I'm not judging anyone here - I'm just trying to account for the difference in reaction that you've reported).

Another thought is simply that you may find yourself if someone doesn't share your interests, that there simply isn't much of a basis for a relationship. I think that's a weaker argument because, as I'm sure we've all found, you can find yourself gelling with people who, on any objective test, should be polar opposites. But, again, I'd just suggest it as a thought.

Filan

Hi Schuhart...again interesting points...yes why are men though afraid of associating with androgynes? (not sure if that's a legitimate term but if it isn't I'm inventing it!)....and yeah however recent, it does appear much more acceptable for a woman to enter a man's realm than the reverse..A masculine woman attracts limited attention whereas a feminine man...well I have attracted a lot. Told I have Gender Dysphoria....not sure if that means a lot though..whatever name they use dosen't change the nature of my conflict. .Am currently considering whether life would be better as a transitioned woman ...will probably take years to reach conclusion. A transsexual dosen't just enter a surgery a man and two hours later leave a woman...it takes years of transitioning...years of small changes....and I'll be making a few....and see whether I feel comfortable....step by step...I might feel comfortable long before the final destination....I might feel comfortable after just a part of that journey , if I do I'll stop...that's what I seek really...to feel comfortable with who I am in the world I live in...which for reasons stated previously, due to nurtured norms, isn't easy for me...I'm ok with who I am ...but nurture has created a stigma for gender non-conformists

It's worth noting though that I don't believe that one can ever truly change gender...one can resemble opticaly one's target gender....but biologicaly I would always be for the most part male...and in my eyes remain an altered male....

The nature nurture debate is actually very current within Psychology circles....huge debates as to the weight of influence by exerted by both and yeah I feel nurture has a lot to answer for!.

This makes a change to the Islam debate eh?!

Isobel

How you're brought up won't have any effect on your orientation, If you're Trans you're Trans, if you're gay you're gay, it'll only effect how you approach day to day life. How you walk, how you talk superficial stuff that can easily be unlearned. I was never really able to pass as male so I just don't bother trying anymore and it was really easy for me to fit straight into my female role.