Should Rafa stay or go?

Sizzler

After the last 2 games and an average league showing have punters patience finally run out with the tuby Spaniard

fade2black

You're opening yourself up to a lot of abuse Sizzler.

MrJoeSoap

Seriously? Why don't you give your opinion first.

Jivin Turkey

For the record, before we have posters coming on giving it the "Liverpool supporters are so fickle, a couple of results etc etc", could Sizzler please clarify who he supports, because I don't think it is Liverpool.

As regards the issue at hand, not at all, perhaps Benitez saw how United strode from strength to strength when they could focus mainly on the league in the latter stages of the season last year and he wants some of the same.

There is no shame in losing to Arsenal in a cup competition.

Reganio 2

I have never been a fan of Benitez but sacking him now is not a good idea.

mike65

Sighs.

NO! Wait till the summer.

Mike.

Chucky the tree

i would start, but i'll just get banned so i'll leave it.

Dub13

Sizzler wrote:

After the last 2 games and an average league showing have punters patience finally run out with the tuby Spaniard

It was two cup games,Rafa and most non English managers do not rate the caps.Rafa has LFC on the right roan he will come good.

futuredeath

this is a silly thread i'd say less than 5% of fans would even consider the idea of getting rid of him.

Sizzler

Jivin Turkey wrote:

For the record, before we have posters coming on giving it the "Liverpool supporters are so fickle, a couple of results etc etc", could Sizzler please clarify who he supports, because I don't think it is Liverpool.

As regards the issue at hand, not at all, perhaps Benitez saw how United strode from strength to strength when they could focus mainly on the league in the latter stages of the season last year and he wants some of the same.

There is no shame in losing to Arsenal in a cup competition.

You're right Ted, I don't but being a Utd supporter believe it or not I have had moments of sack Fergie over the last few years so it wouldn't surprise me if theres Pool fans on here tonight that want him out.

No shame in losing, indeed but being embarrassed in two games in the space of a few days (for different reasons, saturday was just an off day where the lads werent up for it but tonight was just a sheer steamroller situation :eek: )

Ultimate question is are you getting enough from the man (champs league victory aside )

The irony has not escaped me that Man U got to Arsenal in 2 weeks and might well get their arse kicked

Waster

I assume this thread is a wind up.

Sizzler

futuredeath wrote:

this is a silly thread i'd say less than 5% of fans would even consider the idea of getting rid of him.

The joys of internet discussion my friend

Sizzler

fade2black wrote:

You're opening yourself up to a lot of abuse Sizzler.

Don't worry I'll balance the books the next time Utd get thrashed and start a thread on whether Fergie should go

PHB

Do I think Rafa can win the league for Liverpool in the next 2 seasons? No.

Do I think there is somebody better for Liverpool that is both availible and willing to join? No.

Should they fire him? No.

Stky10

I can't see how someone could advocate his sacking on the strength of a hammering in the worthless cup. Before the game started tonight I thought the two teams fairly evenly matched but probably advantage Arsenal if you go through it player by player (didn't see the match, but presume these were the formations).

Dudek/Almunia - Dudek is more experienced, but seems totally pissed off and out of form - 1-0 Arsenal
Peltier/Hoyte - Peltier is a midfielder, thats where he normally plays in the reserves, Hoyte an underage international defender - 2-0 Arsenal
Warnock/Traore - Warnock is more experienced, but just coming back from injury so even - 2-0 Arsenal
Hyppia/Paletta/Toure/Djourou - Paletta & Djourou too inexperienced, will go Hyppia/Toure - 3-1 Arsenal
Guthrie/Walcott - Guthrie is a central midfielder, no good sticking him on the wing - 4-1 Arsenal
Gonzalez/Denilson - Speedy more experienced - 4-2 Arsenal
Gerrard/Aurelio/Fabregas/Song - Gerrard & Fabregas obviously- 5-3 Arsenal
Fowler/Bellamy/Baptista/Aliadiere - Bellamy & Baptista obviously, Fowler is past it at this stage - 6-4 Arsenal

As for the league position and the cup exit, they're a product of the compromises he's had to make on bringing players in due to the financial position of the club, and the state of the youth team when he took over. Its well known Houllier and Heighway didn't get on, and promising youth/reserve team players were left to wither away. The likes of Pennant was signed in the summer because they couldn't afford the extra 2-3 million for the first choice of Alves. The previous summer David Villa was let go to Valencia because we couldn't afford him either. Of the other big three, Ferguson & Wenger have been there for 20/10 years and have been able to build up the structure they want around them. Mourinho has been able to sign whoever he wanted. Its not a level playing pitch, we cannot constantly expect miracles.

Raskolnikov

Wait until the end of the season. If Liverpool don't get a spot in the Champions League, he should go.

Jivin Turkey

Sizzler wrote:

Ultimate question is are you getting enough from the man (champs league victory aside )

CL victory, FA Cup victory, Carling Cup final, Super Cup victory and just a couple of points off United last year would indicate yes, case closed.

Perhaps he thinks that by only having two competitions to focus on in the latter stages of the season will hold them in good stead for their league run in as it did with United last year?

Sizzler

Jivin Turkey wrote:

CL victory, FA Cup victory, Carling Cup final, Super Cup victory and just a couple of points off United last year would indicate yes, case closed.

Cheap shot, we're not talking about Utd tonight

How long would you give the great man so?
How long will the new owners give him Look at the lad who took over West Ham, Ive no doubts Pardew would have got them back on track but one bad result at Bolton and he was out on his ear !

bat boy

Theres no way he'll be gotten rid of anytime soon, nor should he be. There isnt anyone available who could do a better job than him at the moment. Sizzler, are you going to give us your own opinion then, seeing as you started the thread.

Jivin Turkey

Sizzler wrote:

Cheap shot, we're not talking about Utd tonight

It's not a cheap shot. I think getting within touching distance of them (and second place) in his second season is a credit to him.

Sizzler wrote:

How long would you give the great man so?
How long will the new owners give him

How ever long he wants. Look at what he has achieved in two seasons. Three trophies (including the biggest in club football) and a distinct improvment in league performances.

Your rationale to put fuel to the "sack him" fire is based on being knocked out of two cup competitions by a team that is one of the favourites to lift both of the trophies. That is utter non-sense.

Sizzler wrote:

Look at the lad who took over West Ham, Ive no doubts Pardew would have got them back on track but one bad result at Bolton and he was out on his ear !

Pardew was not sacked as a result of one performance, more like as a result of the previous 15.

Chucky the tree

Sizzler wrote:

Ive no doubts Pardew would have got them back on track but one bad result at Bolton and he was out on his ear !

Being in the relegation zone probaly didnt help his cause.



Great troll attempt though, impressive.

Sizzler

Chucky the tree wrote:

Being in the relegation zone probaly didnt help his cause.



Great troll attempt though, impressive.

Probably didnt, but look at what Steve Bruce has done with Brum after being given a chance, they'll be back next season and better for it I'd imagine.

Bollox to troll, FFS, DISCUSSION. Get rid of the chip on the shoulder.

Jivin Turkey

Sizzler wrote:

Bollox to troll, FFS, DISCUSSION. Get rid of the chip on the shoulder.

Well then put together some sort of rationale reason as to why ANYONE would be calling for RB's head.

Liverpool were knocked out of the FA Cup by Arsenal on Saturday, and tonight have gone out in the QFs of the Carling to the same team. It's hardly a crisis.

Sizzler

bat boy wrote:

Theres no way he'll be gotten rid of anytime soon, nor should he be. There isnt anyone available who could do a better job than him at the moment. Sizzler, are you going to give us your own opinion then, seeing as you started the thread.

Without stating the obvious I think apart from a magnificent champs lge victory he's produced a fairly inconsistent team and has taken his time to get the best of out his buys (for a variety of reasons admittedly).He doesnt seem to know what his best team is and makes fantasy football selections even more difficult each week

Personally Id see where the season finishes up and then take it from there, theres bound to be some manager movement in the summer Id imagine! I dont subscribe to the argument that theres nobody better out there, maybe at this point in time yes, but in the summer if a club is ambitous and has the lids in the bank there should be opportunity to get the best, as is the case with players, just ask José!

As a fan 2 wipe outs at home in competitions you would ordinarily hope to have a good run in (if not win!) would have me seriously miffed, regardless of opposition, thats a cop out imho.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

reserve judgement until the home games against Asenal, Man U and Chelsea. If he doesn't start recording wins against the teams above us soon, it's time up. Cup games with reserve players (on both sides, remember) don't really add to the argument.

Guy:Incognito

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Liverpool were knocked out of the FA Cup by Arsenal on Saturday, and tonight have gone out in the QFs of the Carling to the same team. It's hardly a crisis.

I'm not ine for sacking managers, especially during a season, so thats not an issue.

But the fact of it is. We'be lost to Arsenal 3 times, Chelsea once and Utd once, aswell as picking up another couple of defeats along the way.

It's not acceptable to lose to all of our main competitors in a season. Say we lose to Chelsea on sat week, its a very real possibility Utd could beat us too. Thats not on, plain and simple. I mean we could get to the end of the season having been beaten in 7 games V the other top 3 teams because lest face it, we havnt looked like beating any of them so far. What do we do if we get one of them in the cl? Roll over?

This isnt a rant at you, just a general one about the season.

Chardee MacDennis

pure troll...

Stky10

Someone (could well be an Arsenal/ManU/Chelsea fan) on TV3's Sports Tonight program texted in to say he reckons we should get rid of Benitez, and get someone class in like Sven Goran Eriksson.

Yup, they're all coming out tonight...

MrJoeSoap

Stky10 wrote:

Someone (could well be an Arsenal/ManU/Chelsea fan) on TV3's Sports Tonight program texted in to say he reckons we should get rid of Benitez, and get someone class in like Sven Goran Eriksson.

Yup, they're all coming out tonight...

Someone on 'You're on Sky Sports' said the same but with Mourinho instead of Sven. Is it a full moon?

Guy:Incognito

Stky10 wrote:

Someone (could well be an Arsenal/ManU/Chelsea fan) on TV3's Sports Tonight program texted in to say he reckons we should get rid of Benitez, and get someone class in like Sven Goran Eriksson.

We'd get Beckham though.


Be some interesting formations aswell. At least Gerrard would get to play in the middle, although it would probably be alongside another player the same as himself.:D

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Someone on 'You're on Sky Sports' said the same but with Mourinho instead of Sven.

While I know he wont be at Liverpool next season,I dot think he'll be at Chelsea either. Is anyone at a top European club looking like they'll be on their way at the min?

Stky10

Stekelly wrote:

While I know he wont be at Liverpool next season,I dot think he'll be at Chelsea either. Is anyone at a top European club looking like they'll be on their way at the min?

Capello and Ancelotti mostly... maybe the Bayern Munich guy as well who's name escapes me at the moment..

kinaldo

Benitez is still probably amongst the top 3 managers in the world at the moment. In the last 3 seasons alone he's won the Champions League, the Uefa Cup, the FA Cup and the Spanish league! If Liverpool fans have had enough of him then he'd be more than welcome up in the North East...

Helix

Jivin Turkey wrote:

There is no shame in losing to Arsenal in a cup competition.

what about losing 6-3 at home

imo benitez could well walk in the summer

he wont be kicked, shoved or pushed tho, he'll do it off his own back

Jivin Turkey

Helix wrote:

what about losing 6-3 at home

To their B side.

Yeah no shame in it. Only two of the starting Liverpool team I would consider first XI.

Helix wrote:

imo benitez could well walk in the summer

he wont be kicked, shoved or pushed tho, he'll do it off his own back

There is not a hope in hell that Benitez will walk from the club. Particularly given the potential if the takeover is successful.

Nights like tonight is what makes Liverpool a special club, conceeded six at home yet the fans will still sing the last few minutes out. Benitez feels that bond.

Stky10

Helix wrote:

imo benitez could well walk in the summer

he wont be kicked, shoved or pushed tho, he'll do it off his own back

Doubt it. He left Valencia because they wouldn't spend decent money and wouldn't buy the players he asked for (wasn't there a famous quote about asking for a couch and getting a lamp?). For the last two and a half years he's had to fight against the tide to gain ground on teams with more money to spend. If the DIC investment goes through he'll finally be able to get close to his first choice of players. I can't see him giving up that opportunity easily.

Helix

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Nights like tonight is what makes Liverpool a special club, conceeded six at home yet the fans will still sing the last few minutes out

after being booed off at half time

fade2black

Jivin Turkey wrote:

To their B side.

Yeah no shame in it. Only two of the starting Liverpool team I would consider first XI.

Out of curiosity...who are the 2?

~Rebel~

The 2 would probably be Bellamy and Gerrard id imagine.

The entire back 4 would be different with riise, agger, carra, finnan. midfield would prob have momo, xabi and pennant/garcia, Kuyt would definately be a 1st choice starter up front. And of course Pepe in goal.

_blank_

kinaldo wrote:

Benitez is still probably amongst the top 3 managers in the world at the moment.

Ah jaysis, come off it would you.

Wenger has outclassed him twice in a week.

Ferguson is just better.

Mourinho is better.

Capello is better.

Arguably Rijkaard.

Sven.

Stan.

kippy

Benitez is still probably amongst the top 3 managers in the world at the moment

I wouldnt rate him in the top 10 "at the moment". Well down the league, out of both domestic cups........One or two of his substititions last night were questionable.
And lets just bang another "much bandied" comment on the head here. Liverpool do not operate on "Limited resources" or should I say they don't operate on the same type of resources as a team such as Watford.
Liverpool, over the past few years have spent almost as much as the "cash rich" Man United, and almost twice as much as their Arsenal counterparts. So Benitez in my opinion has plenty of financial clout. Arsene over the past few years has operated on far smaller resources and seems to have built a team capable, maybe not this year but definetly next year, in challanging for major honours.

That said, the guy doesnt deserve to be sacked-he should get two more years. The clubs massive overreliance on Gerrard though is something which Rafa will need to sort out though.
Kippy

event

Stky10 wrote:

Dudek/Almunia - Dudek is more experienced, but seems totally pissed off and out of form - 1-0 Arsenal
Peltier/Hoyte - Peltier is a midfielder, thats where he normally plays in the reserves, Hoyte an underage international defender - 2-0 Arsenal
Warnock/Traore - Warnock is more experienced, but just coming back from injury so even - 2-0 Arsenal
Hyppia/Paletta/Toure/Djourou - Paletta & Djourou too inexperienced, will go Hyppia/Toure - 3-1 Arsenal
Guthrie/Walcott - Guthrie is a central midfielder, no good sticking him on the wing - 4-1 Arsenal
Gonzalez/Denilson - Speedy more experienced - 4-2 Arsenal
Gerrard/Aurelio/Fabregas/Song - Gerrard & Fabregas obviously- 5-3 Arsenal
Fowler/Bellamy/Baptista/Aliadiere - Bellamy & Baptista obviously, Fowler is past it at this stage - 6-4 Arsenal

The likes of Pennant was signed in the summer because they couldn't afford the extra 2-3 million for the first choice of Alves. The previous summer David Villa was let go to Valencia because we couldn't afford him either. Of the other big three, Ferguson & Wenger have been there for 20/10 years and have been able to build up the structure they want around them. Mourinho has been able to sign whoever he wanted. Its not a level playing pitch, we cannot constantly expect miracles.

thats a very simplistic way of looking at it

dudek is a more experienced keeper than almunia
warnock/traore - traore has mad TWO first team appearances for arsenal. Coming back from injury or not, warnock has 46 starts for liverpool. How you say traore has the edge is beyond me?

also, pennant was signed as they couldnt afford the extra two or three million?
eh they could, they didnt have to spend as much on bellamy and kuyt?

TheMonster

Benitez has spent a lot of money and barring Alonso(and possibly Kuyt) how many have added greatly to the quality of the squad?

INS

Josemi
Garcia
Alonso
Nunez
Pellegrino
Morientes
Scott Carson
Jose Reina
Boudewijn Zenden
Mark Gonzalez
Antonio Barragan
Mohamed Sissoko
Peter Crouch
Jack Hobbs
Paul Anderson
Jan Kromkamp
David Martin
Daniel Agger
Fowler
Bellamy
Paletta
Aurelio
Pennant
Kuyt

OUTS

Babbel
Murphy
Prince Owen
Chris Butler
Henchoz
Smicer
King Diouf
Luzi Bernardi
Alou Diarra
Igor Biscan
Pellegrino
Otsemobor
Gregory Vignal
Nunez
Partridge
Milan Baros
Paul Harrison
Mark Smyth
Josemi
Welsh
Morientes
Conal Platt
Zak Whitbread
Cheyrou
Salif Diao
Paul Willis
David Raven
Ramon Calliste
Hamann
Carl Medjani
Robbie Foy
Antonio Barragan
Djimi Traore
Neil Mellor


Last nights team had a lot more experience than the Arsenal one. Only Peltier,Guthrie and Paletta are not experienced first teamers and more bizarrly 2 of the 3 of them were played out of position.

Benitez has not shown enough in the PL to suggest they are going to ever challenge for the title in his reign.

sundula

The two results are not entirely the managers fault, some of the players should well shoulder the blame. Results against Arsenal just prove how poor some of the players at the club are. I'm sure if the investment comes he will use it to bring in some quality and use results like this to justify the release of some of the second string players who are muck.

HashSlinging

The team are out of the FA cup and the carling cup! both of which we have won recently... The team is third in the PL? I think he should stay, he gets my vote of confidence. Where were valencia at christmas time when he drove them to win the league???? they were 13 points behind the top team.

TheMonster

HashSlinging wrote:

The team are out of the FA cup and the carling cup! both of which we have won recently... The team is third in the PL? I think he should stay, he gets my vote of confidence. Where were valencia at christmas time when he drove them to win the league???? they were 13 points behind the top team.

I have heard it all now - are you seriously still thinking they can win the league??

scojones

Jivin Turkey wrote:

There is no shame in losing to Arsenal in a cup competition.

No shame in losing 6 - 3 at home? Do you want to rethink what you said?

Funny how when Ireland lost 5 - 2 everyone called for the managers' head, when Liverpool lose 6 - 3 everyone says he shouldn't be sacked. For the record I don't think he should be sacked - and I also said that about the Irish manager when we lost to Cyprus.

People on this forum call for the managers' head far too often. I'm surprised there isn't a thread asking should the Chelsea manager go because they drew a few games.

jank

Would you trust him with 300millions?

If he is sacked and a quality replacement brought in then fans will be like "meeh" I dont mind!

HashSlinging

TheMonster wrote:

I have heard it all now - are you seriously still thinking they can win the league??

Im sure you were saying the same thing when they got to the champions league final. You ended up with egg on your face then, dont let it happen again.

sundula

Just quickly looking over the list of players he has signed and in my view in general his signings have not been to bad. Must of them have yet to settle so its slightly unfair to judge. Sissoko is unlucky to be injured, he would have been important this season. Carson is getting very good reviews at Charlton, Reina had a great run last season and although I am not a fan if they had another good keeper to challenge him it might help. I dont think Agger, Aurielo, Gonzalez or Palleta have had enogh time to settle, i dont like Garcia but he has scored some important goals. Kuyt,Alonso, Bellamy and Crouch have all proved important. The really bad signings were let go very quickly which is a very good attribute for any manager to have. The balance of his signings are at worst ordinary premiership players most with international experience.

TheMonster

HashSlinging wrote:

Im sure you were saying the same thing when they got to the champions league final. You ended up with egg on your face then, dont let it happen again.

I assume thats a yes - could you clarify for those who do not see the obvious just why you think they could :rolleyes:

TheMonster

sundula wrote:

The balance of his signings are at worst ordinary premiership players most with international experience.

Thats exactly where the problem lies IMO. They have spent close to the same amount as Utd but wheeras Utd have chosen to buy a small number of expensive players Liverpool have bought a large number of "ordianry" players.