Should Rafa stay or go?

HashSlinging

This thread isnt about how liverpool are going to win the league its about rafa and if he should stay or go. I've stated he should stay lets not go off topic here.

TheMonster

HashSlinging wrote:

This thread isnt about how liverpool are going to win the league its about rafa and if he should stay or go. I've stated he should stay lets not go off topic here.

Would not think its that off topic - its about the same person(well he would manage them to win the league) but if you feel like that start a new one or put it in the General Liverpool thread. I think a lot of people here would love to hear your theories,

leninbenjamin

these discussions about whether rafa should go or not are pointless... you can't really compare Liverpool to Man Utd at the moment, as Ferguson took a hell of a lot of time to build up United up to what they are today, and you can't compare them to Chelsea, as Mourinho has all the feckin money in the world to spend (and still cant get it right, Chelsea's best signings of recent years were all done under Ranieri in my opinion). As for comparing them to Arsenal... look how well Arsenal have been doing in the past few seasons, about the same as Rafa's pool.

the only time anyone should be calling for the head of Rafa is if Liverpool were in the bottom half of the table. He might not be the best manager in the World, but his credentials place him up there among the heavy hitters (and above Mourinho in my opinion, his comments about his squad really should never be said by a manager in public, keep it to the dressing room)

All the baying for the heads of managers is not good, what's the point of hiring someone if your not going to let him settle for the long run. Rafa had to adapt to the Premiership, that takes time but he is getting there. Fair enough it only took Arsene two seasons, but the bar has been raised by Chelsea, and even AW is suffering because of it. Also there are absolutely no managers who could come in right now who would not have to endure a similar adaption curve i feel, all contenders would most likely be foreign, there is a severe lack of British managerial talent. If Liverpool got rid of Rafa it would be back to square one.

super_furry

Threads like this make me laugh and show just how out of touch so many Irish Premiership fans are with those who actually go to the match week in, week out.

Stky10

event wrote:

dudek is a more experienced keeper than almunia

I know, I said that myself. He's not in good form at the moment though as judged by the game at the weekend. He's got probably more than 50 full international caps. He can't be happy sitting on the bench this long, and its effecting his game.

event wrote:

warnock/traore - traore has mad TWO first team appearances for arsenal. Coming back from injury or not, warnock has 46 starts for liverpool. How you say traore has the edge is beyond me?

I didn't... I went evens on that one. Warnock is more experienced as I said, but as it was his first game back after injury it wouldn't show, and so I'd regard them as even.

event wrote:

also, pennant was signed as they couldnt afford the extra two or three million?
eh they could, they didnt have to spend as much on bellamy and kuyt?

Eh yes they did. You're confusing price and value. I wouldn't value Pennant at 6m, but if that was the minimum price that Birmingham would be willing to sell for then that becomes his price. Same for Kuyt and Bellamy, but in those cases there was more competition, and if we weren't willing to pay the price Feyenoord/Blackburn wanted then they'd have sold them to the likes of Newcastle et al who were willing to pay it.

event

Stky10 wrote:

I know, I said that myself. He's not in good form at the moment though as judged by the game at the weekend. He's got probably more than 50 full international caps. He can't be happy sitting on the bench this long, and its effecting his game.

you cant judge form on one game, you cant say he is in bad form because in his last game he was at fault for one goal

if a striker missed a penalty, would he be in bad form?

Stky10 wrote:

I didn't... I went evens on that one. Warnock is more experienced as I said, but as it was his first game back after injury it wouldn't show, and so I'd regard them as even.

fair enough, thats your opinion but i dont see how a player with 2 appearances can be considered even to a player who has 40 odd, coming back from injury or not.

Stky10 wrote:

Eh yes they did. You're confusing price and value. I wouldn't value Pennant at 6m, but if that was the minimum price that Birmingham would be willing to sell for then that becomes his price. Same for Kuyt and Bellamy, but in those cases there was more competition, and if we weren't willing to pay the price Feyenoord/Blackburn wanted then they'd have sold them to the likes of Newcastle et al who were willing to pay it.

eh, no they didnt. They didnt have to buy kuyt or pennant. Rafa chose to, thereby choosing to not get alves.
He could easily have got alves, and went for a cheaper striker

bullrunner

have to say...Since Benitez first season when he bought a number of players (ie alonso,reina,garcia) ...not too many of his other buys have made themselves regulars...

his current first choice (!) team is usually

reina
finnan
agger/hyypia
carragher
riise
gerrard
alonso
sissoko/garcia/kewell/pennant
crouch/kuyt
bellamy/fowler

so 6/7 of the first choice arent players he bought....not exactly putting his mark on the first choice playing staff. Now I know when he took over he said he needed to deepen the squad (which he has)...but to be fair a lot of his signings have been flops..or only so-so.

i think benitez needs to change his tactics more to suit the premiership...he still seems to be struggling getting results away from home. But the biggest problem is that Pool just cant get a result against the big three (Arsenal Man U and Chelski)

I would give him another year...but would have to make it very clear that pool have to be winning (or at least) close to the title next year.

As for the match last night....pool were awful..espec paletta...why he and hyppia didnt swap marking on aliadiere is bemusing....also who was supposed to be watching the runner (baptista-4 goals)...even the most inept manager should have seen this and made tactical changes to counter this...is it a case benitez did and the players didnt listen...or benitez just ignored it??If its the former then hes lost the dressing room and should definitely go...if the latter...just what was he doing??

Jivin Turkey

fade2black wrote:

Out of curiosity...who are the 2?

Bellamy and Gerrard as Rebel said.

sjones wrote:

No shame in losing 6 - 3 at home? Do you want to rethink what you said?

Not at all. It was a largely second string Liverpool side, with a number of players coming back from injury, against a young and hungry Arsenal side. It was a strange game, and a loss in a cup match is a loss regardless of the result.

sjones wrote:

Funny how when Ireland lost 5 - 2 everyone called for the managers' head, when Liverpool lose 6 - 3 everyone says he shouldn't be sacked. For the record I don't think he should be sacked - and I also said that about the Irish manager when we lost to Cyprus.

The Ireland scenario and the Liverpool scenario are two completely opposite ends of the spectrum given all that had gone on before them.

The Ireland result will probably result in us not playing in a major championship until 2010. I'm sure Liverpool have plenty bigger fish to fry this month alone than Arsenals youth team.

sjones wrote:

People on this forum call for the managers' head far too often. I'm surprised there isn't a thread asking should the Chelsea manager go because they drew a few games.

I don't see any Liverpool supporters calling for their managers head.

super_furry wrote:

Threads like this make me laugh and show just how out of touch so many Irish Premiership fans are with those who actually go to the match week in, week out.

Yawn, get off your f*cking high horse. How does this show how "out of touch so many Irish Premiership fans" are?

How would going to see a club mean they would be more "in touch"?

This thread was started by a Man United fan, as what would appear to be a wind up, I don't see any Liverpool fans calling for RB's head.

Jivin Turkey

Oh I'll bite TheMonster.......

TheMonster wrote:

Benitez has spent a lot of money and barring Alonso(and possibly Kuyt) how many have added greatly to the quality of the squad?

INS

Josemi - No
Garcia - Yes, frustrating but definitely adds a dimension
Alonso - Yes
Nunez - No
Pellegrino - Woeful whenever he played but I wouldn't underestimate his influence on the transformation of the defence the season after. He was brought in to help bring RB's tactics to the players, and regardless he was free
Morientes - Didn't work out
Scott Carson - Looks a good player
Jose Reina - Yes, definitely
Boudewijn Zenden - Squad player, been largely disappointing, but free again
Mark Gonzalez - Too early, shows some nice touches at times
Antonio Barragan - Far too early
Mohamed Sissoko - Looks like he will be a top class player
Peter Crouch - Useful addition to the squad
Jack Hobbs - Too early
Paul Anderson - Too early
Jan Kromkamp - Bought and sold within six months, got £2M for him
David Martin - Too early
Daniel Agger - Looks a promising player
Fowler - Free, scored some important goals, great addition to the squad
Bellamy - Wasn't sure at the beginning but starting to show some form
Paletta - Wasn't impressed last night but still too early
Aurelio - Not sure, needs more time
Pennant - See Bellamy, still has a long way to go
Kuyt - Looks top class

That doesn't look too bad for me. The jury is still out on so many, most have definitely added to the quality of the squad as a whole (which was most definitely lacking) even if they aren't first team regulars.

Alonso, Sissoko, Kuyt and Reina are first team regulars and very consistent.

Garcia and Bellamy, can be inconsistent but definitely add to the first XI.

TheMonster wrote:

Benitez has not shown enough in the PL to suggest they are going to ever challenge for the title in his reign.

Again utter non-sense.

In his second season he finished nine points behind Chelsea despite taking just 4/18 points from their three closest rivals. This year they have done badly against the same teams but can still more than double that tally in their remaining three matches.

To suggest that they are not ever challenge for the title in his reign is just the usual horse-sh*t we should expect from you (and that I should be able to rise above but unfortunately...). If the were able to overturn Chelsea in one of the games they played last year the gap would have been a massive 3 points. :rolleyes:

TheMonster

In his second season he finished nine points behind Chelsea despite taking just 4/18 points from their three closest rivals.

Yippee - only 9 points - Chelsea wouldn't have taken their foot off the gas now would they>

This year they have done badly against the same teams but can still more
than double that tally in their remaining three matches.

CAN - but will they? Have they given any indication they can?

If the were able to overturn Chelsea in one of the games they played last year the gap would have been a massive 3 points. :rolleyes:

IF - story of Liverpool over the last few years

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

Yippee - only 9 points - Chelsea wouldn't have taken their foot off the gas now would they

I agree, they probably did, but 9 points is not a lot, especially considering that they were beaten by Chelsea twice. And it is certainly an indication that RB knows what he is doing considering the massive gap the previous year, would you not agree?

Who is to say Chelsea will be going for the title hell for leather this year? I would argue that it is not Chelsea's priority.

TheMonster wrote:

CAN - but will they? Have they given any indication they can?

They've beaten Chelsea already this year, they were unlucky at times at Stamford Bridge, they beat Chelsea at the end of last year. They've won all their league games at home to Arsenal under Benitez. Didn't they also beat United at Anfield last year.

That to me is at least some indication, would you not agree?

TheMonster wrote:

IF - story of Liverpool over the last few years

True, and for far too long. But just like every team that doesn't win the league.

You also seem to have shyed away from your claim that for all the money he has spent that Alonso is the only RB signing to have added to the strength of the squad.

scojones

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Not at all. It was a largely second string Liverpool side, with a number of players coming back from injury, against a young and hungry Arsenal side.

Young and hungry, that makes me laugh. The Arsenal team was a second string team, Liverpool had more first team players than Arsenal did.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I don't see any Liverpool supporters calling for their managers head.

That's irrelevant. My point is a thread has been started about whether he should stay or go. How many of these threads have we seen over the last six months... and none of the managers have gotten the sack. Calling for a manager to get the sack is becoming a bit too frequent on here.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Yawn, get off your f*cking high horse.

Calm down and watch the language.

Bacchus

Haven't read through all the thread but it's ridiculous to be considering sacking him. Poor start to the season aside, Liverpool have been the most consistant side in the Prem for 2 months now. I wouldn't be worrying about the two cup exits at all. The FA cup was dissapointing but I think Benitez wanted to avoid a draw and a replay (hence no bringing on Bellamy or Gonzalez when what we needed was some pace in attack). The Carling Cup was a reserve game, nothing more. Who even cares about that cup anymore. We're 3rd in the Premiership and still in the Champs League. He does need to sort out the wings next summer but he's doing a good job in my opinion and I certainly don't think anyone else could be doing a better job.

TheMonster wrote:

Benitez has spent a lot of money and barring Alonso(and possibly Kuyt) how many have added greatly to the quality of the squad?

From your list all of these players have either done well for Liverpool or are showing signs of becoming future stars for Liverpool. I think Benitez's ratio of hit/miss as far as signing go is quite good.A lot of his poor signing were early in his Liverpool career. I think he's learned from those mistakes.

Garcia - scores vital goals, has got some consistentancy this season
Alonso - had a slow start this season but there is no doubting his quality
Jose Reina - solid keeper, had a nice run of clean sheets there recently
Mark Gonzalez - one for the future, hopefully he'll make a bigger impact next season
Mohamed Sissoko - great defensive midfielder, injuries have set him back
Peter Crouch - dispite critism, he does a lot of work for Liverpool
Daniel Agger - Gradually replacing Hyypia, and is doing well this season
Fowler - considering how much it cost to get him, it was a smart signing
Bellamy - has been poor but still have hopes that he'll come good for us
Aurelio - needs to improve defensively but he's got a great cross and free-kick
Pennant - showing signs of improvement
Kuyt - Quality player, his goal tally doesn't do him justise.

Jivin Turkey

sjones wrote:

Young and hungry, that makes me laugh. The Arsenal team was a second string team, Liverpool had more first team players than Arsenal did.

Yes but my point is the likes of Dudek, Warnock, Hyypia and Fowler know that their Liverpool careers are on a wind-down. Dudek and Warnock will probably be gone in the Summer, and Hyypia and Fowler will just be there out of loyalty on both parts to just fill gaps when needed.

Arsenal's team was made up of fringe players and youngsters who all (almost) have futures ahead of them at the club.

I'm not denying it was a bad result for Liverpool, I'm also not denying that I thought they would win the game, but it is not the end of the world.

sjones wrote:

That's irrelevant. My point is a thread has been started about whether he should stay or go. How many of these threads have we seen over the last six months... and none of the managers have gotten the sack. Calling for a manager to get the sack is becoming a bit too frequent on here.

It's not irrelevant.

The thread was started by a rival supporter in what it appears to have been an attempt to troll. I have yet to see anyone give a rational explaination as to why they think Benitez should be given the bullet.

It would be like me starting a thread calling for Steve Bruce to be given the sack, or Alex Ferguson. The thread is pointless, and not really representative of the feelings of the majority of the board.

Sizzler

Jivin Turkey wrote:

The thread was started by a rival supporter in what it appears to have been an attempt to troll. I have yet to see anyone give a rational explaination as to why they think Benitez should be given the bullet.

FFS ! Get over who started the thread :mad: If a Pool supporter started the thread I bet that bag of chips on your shoulder wouldn't be SO heavy when replying to people's posts.

Is a "rival" supporter not allowed discuss football opinions now on here for fear of troll alerts Grow up and get rid of the schoolyard mentality. Jebus !

A fair question was fielded, you didn't agree so we move on! For the record I wasnt suggesting he get the red card either as I said on earlier posts last night, I merely threw it out, maybe last night was a bit too emotive given the result.

Chucky the tree

Sizzler wrote:

Probably didnt, but look at what Steve Bruce has done with Brum after being given a chance, they'll be back next season and better for it I'd imagine.

Bollox to troll, FFS, DISCUSSION. Get rid of the chip on the shoulder.

Well, when you try and use losing two games in the FA cup and calring cup as a reason to sack the manager it doesnt look good.

Then, to go on suggest the only reason Pardew was sacked from West ham was only down to his Bolton result was just the icing on the cake.

I just premused your either a troll, or a bit simple. I gave you the benefit of the doubt by calling you a troll though.

Jivin Turkey

Sizzler wrote:

FFS ! Get over who started the thread :mad: If a Pool supporter started the thread I bet that bag of chips on your shoulder wouldn't be SO heavy when replying to people's posts.

Is a "rival" supporter not allowed discuss football opinions now on here for fear of troll alerts Grow up and get rid of the schoolyard mentality. Jebus !

A fair question was fielded, you didn't agree so we move on! For the record I wasnt suggesting he get the red card either as I said on earlier posts last night, I merely threw it out, maybe last night was a bit too emotive given the result.

You've missed the point completely if you think who started the thread is irrelevant.

But to give you a clue I'll spell it out for you. You get loads of people coming on claiming supporters are "out of touch" or "calling for a managers head too quickly" or that "Liverpool supporters think they have a right to win" etc. when Liverpool supporters suggested nothing of the sort.

You threw the question out, it has been vastly rebuked, so do you want to request the thread be closed now?

Helix

Jivin Turkey wrote:

If the were able to overturn Chelsea in one of the games they played last year the gap would have been a massive 3 points. :rolleyes:

do you honestly think chelsea wouldve lost all the matches they did at the end of the season had they not already won the title?

them finishing 9 points ahead of you is a huge misrepresentation of the actual way things went down

Jivin Turkey

Helix wrote:

do you honestly think chelsea wouldve lost all the matches they did at the end of the season had they not already won the title?

them finishing 9 points ahead of you is a huge misrepresentation of the actual way things went down

No.

But the point was to say they will never challenge under Benitez is absolute non-sense.

Helix

not really, i dont think yis will mount a realistic and long haul challenge in the forseeable future anyway, benitez or no

but i do think yis could probably do with a gaffer who understands the british game a bit more than rafa seems to

im not saying hes a bad manger, hes not, i just dont think hes particularly suited to england

Jivin Turkey

Helix wrote:

but i do think yis could probably do with a gaffer who understands the british game a bit more than rafa seems to

im not saying hes a bad manger, hes not, i just dont think hes particularly suited to england

This is utter non-sense.

In his second season he achieved 82 points, a total that would have won the league in many other seasons. Give him decades like Ferguson or Wenger, or hundreds of millions like Mourinho and then see the result.

Sizzler

Chucky the tree wrote:

I just premused your either a troll, or a bit simple. I gave you the benefit of the doubt by calling you a troll though.

AMB.

Someone says something about your team and you say its a troll, yet the irony of your last statement would suggest you're not unfamiliar with trolling yourself!

Mods: Close it down.

Chucky the tree

I have no problem with people commentating on the result. It was a terrible result. I just dont understand the need to start a thread asking Rafa should go or not. I could of understood if there was plenty of replies to the effect of that in the Liverpool transfer and rumour thread, or even the Match thread. But not one fan said he should be sacked or even mentioned anything like that.


The West ham example was just completely out of left field and had no relation at all. Seemed like you very clutching for straws to back your point up about the thread going.


AMB, i think the pennies dropped. The toys are being flung everywhere now arent they?

Sizzler

Chucky the tree wrote:

I have no problem with people commentating on the result. It was a terrible result. I just dont understand the need to start a thread asking Rafa should go or not. I could of understood if there was plenty of replies to the effect of that in the Liverpool transfer and rumour thread, or even the Match thread. But not one fan said he should be sacked or even mentioned anything like that.


The West ham example was just completely out of left field and had no relation at all. Seemed like you very clutching for straws to back your point up about the thread going.


AMB, i think the pennies dropped. The toys are being flung everywhere now arent they?

Why would I start a thread on the back of the same questions being asked in other threads, seems a but pointless I threw out a question, no need to over analyse !
Theres other questionable threads also..."Chelsea crisis" being a prime example!

AMB. Indeed, call me old fashioned then if you insult someone the odds are they will retaliate, back to your fav word again TROLL lol ! Good man!

bullrunner

I'm thinking that possibly why people could be calling for Benitez head is that the Pool haven't shown to be consistently improving under him....they still suffer from poor form away from home (like they did in the early days under Rafa) and from an inability to beat Chelsea,arsenal and Man U in the league....until these problems are resolved Pool aren't going to win the league under Rafa (unless they win every other game!).

Rafa also seems to have a indifferent transfer record too...most signings are not settling quickly into the team (prob because they are from non-english speaking countries).

PS....for the record I am a Pool fan...and not overly impressed that Rafa isnt learning from past mistakes

Stky10

Good article by Paul Tomkins

http://www.squarefootball.net/article/article.asp?aid=4059

Sizzler

Stky10 wrote:

Good article by Paul Tomkins

http://www.squarefootball.net/article/article.asp?aid=4059

A lot of good points to be fair, I liked his comparisons

Seen this one?

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/01/11/disillusion_and_confusion_bear.html

HashSlinging

hmm I think I'll let rafa explain why liverpool can win the league....

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_1865582,00.html

:cool:

event

?

once valencia came from behind and won the league so liverpool can do it?

or is there something else im missing?