Irish Labour Party calls for Dog Holocaust

EGAR

Ireland has called for the mandatory banning of all dangerous dogs listed on the restricted breed list outlined below. 2007 is a general election year in Ireland and Joe Costello-the labour MP who made the statement-is rising to the hysteria resulting from the tragic killing of Ellie Lawrenson in Liverpool with this cheap shot to increase votes.

The current list:
Control of Dogs Regulations 1998
Section 5:
This article shall apply to every:
American Pit Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Doberman pinscher
English Bull Terrier
German Shepard (Alsation)
Japanese Akita
Japanese Tosa
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and
to every dog of the type commonly known as the Ban Dog (or Bandog) and to every other strain or cross of every breed or type of dog described in this article

Basicall these dogs can't be in a public place unless securely muzzled and led by a strong chain or leash not exceeding 2 metres and by a person over 16 who is capable of controlling the said dog.

As usual and I'm sure you are all aware of the draconian attitude to dogs in Ireland, we are years behind our neighbours across the water and Mr. Costello is now trying to inpliment a law which clearly has not worked elsewhere. Not only this, as you can see the list above is more extensive than the list in the UK and contains breeds which I'm sure most of us would agree make wonderful family pets, therapy dogs and constant companions to many and frankly should not be there. Again, only serving to prove how outdate Ireland's attitude towards dogs are.

Please email Mr. Costello on joe.costello@oireachtas.ie and express your disappointment at his mis-guided and ill-informed statements. Please also email Mary Upton (mary.upton@oireachtas.ie) who made the following press release on Tuesday Jan 2nd.

Press Release from http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/116774140890584.html

Insufficient regulation and poorly-resourced enforcement of dog laws mean that a tragedy like the death of little Ellie Lawrenson in England could all too easily happen here, Labour's Mary Upton has said.

"That poor little girl was killed by a pit-bull terrier, and despite the known dangers associated with certain breeds of dog, there is no restriction on owning or breeding such animals here.

"We do have laws which require all dogs to be licensed and for particular breeds to be muzzled, but the enforcement of these laws leaves a lot to be desired. Most counties have only one dog warden who is responsible for enforcing these laws. It's completely unrealistic for anybody to expect these officers to be able to deal with all of these rules ad regulations with such a paltry level of support. If we believe that dog control is an important issue, then dog warden services must be resourced properly.

"Our dog laws need to be tightened up. In particular we should be looking to impose an outright ban on certain breeds.

"We have all seen instances where these dogs are allowed roam our streets without a lead, never mind a muzzle. Many are bred to as guard dogs or as fighting dogs, and by their very nature have an aggressive predisposition. There is a case to be made for setting up a national inspectorate to deal specifically with the most aggressive breeds.

"It's only a matter of time before tragedy strikes unless action is taken.
End press release.



Sarah

nando

Wow that is unbelievable! That has to be one of the most poorly thought out and utterly ridiculous ideas I have ever come across. Talk about jumping on the bandwagon!

Out of interest, where did you find the information that it was Joe Costello who had made the call to ban the dogs on the restricted breeds list since, the press release from Mary Upton just mentions action on dangerous breeds?

CiaranC

*edit* Note to self, dont post on boards while drunk. Apologies

Canaboid

CiaranC wrote:

dont compare destroying dogs to the execution of millions of men, women and children by the nazis. Idiot.

Where did she do this ?

Jules

believe it was the holocaust reference!

EGAR

CiaranC:

A.) I am Jewish, so don't tell me which wording I can use or cannot use!

B.) Before YOU call me an idiot, you might want to look up the meaning of the word: Holocaust, from Greek holo-kauston "all burnt", in its original sense refers to a completely-burnt sacrifice.

Sacrifice indeed.

Our man in Havana

I must admit that I am disgusted with these so called politicians! Out of all my dogs I trust the bigger ones more than my terriers! When I have babies my dogs will learn that they are higher up in the pack than the dogs - I have 11 dogs so we have a pack system, humans first then my lab although I believe Cassie my rottie will be pack leader once hes fully grown.

I know that big dogs cause so much more damage than little ones but bite for bite its the smaller dogs that are more snappy - what happens when (if) they ban the big dogs & a lab mauls/kills a baby?? Do we then ban those types of dogs? Where does it stop? All dogs KILLED???? Will the German Shepard's that are used for law enforcement have to be killed as well? Cause thats what they are talking about ban = killed! Who will take our banned dogs??

I know what happened to Ellie was a tragedy but no one will know what really happened! her parents obviously thought it was safe to leave the child in that house with that dog - a dog owned by a known drug dealer a dog that was known to be aggressive - the law should have dealt with this dog earlier. Ellie's uncle was seen a few hours after her death & the shooting of the dog to be back on the street "probably" selling drugs again. Hardly a model citizen - why should decent owners be forced to give up good dogs? Its all to do with gaining a few fecking votes!

I did not read all of what CiaranC wrote - but in calling for a ban on all of these dogs of which there could be thousands in Ireland if not more - they will have to be destroyed so why is wrong to call it a holocaust? I know they are not human but they are "Mans best friend" I feel its in the same league as Hitler saying that Jews are not worth life - nor are the disabled etc etc. If we allow this to happen we will be 20 steps closer to a big brother state where the government can take away our basic human rights! I do feel very sad for the dogs they have no voice - we as owners & decent human beings need to stand up & be counted! I hate the way politicians jump on a band wagon when the unthinkable happens just to get a few more votes!

I once read a wonderful story where a very abused & beaten rottie was taken in & given all the love she needed to heal & become a happy dog - this poor dog is so gentle she is used as a hospital dog where she helps bring some joy & smiles to sick men, woman & children.

Rant over!

EGAR

Email Costelloe and Upton with your thoughts, let them know that you wont stand for it!

Our man in Havana

I will do! Just have to compose my thoughts I get so heated when I hear what he proposes! Stupid stupid man!

deaddonkey

i'm writing a rather snooty email right now. I reckon i'll post pics of my shepherd just to freak him out a little. He's welcome to come and meet her if he likes.

professore

I grew up with dogs (terriers and a red setter) and love them. Now I have 3 kids and live in a street where there is a lurcher that basically runs wild. He's a nice dog (at least I used to think so), but recently he attacked our neighbour who was passing on a motorbike. He also knocked my son off his bike a few years ago.

So not unreasonably I asked the owners to either a. keep him off the streets unless they are with him or b. muzzle him. They said "sure, sure" but did nothing. I then lodged a complaint with the gardai and they did send someone to ask them nicely the same thing but the dog is still out. What should I do now? What would you do? I know what I am tempted to do.

My neighbours obviously do not care about the dog, or the gardai for that matter (until he takes a lump out of some kid's face) or the neighbourhood's kids so why should I care?

My point is any legislation should punish the owners, not the dogs - with the exception of a dangerous dog - and singling out by breed is NOT the solution. I spoke recently to the owner of a male Rottweiler and that dog was very well under control.

Our man in Havana

Contact your dog warden & say the dog has been roaming & attacking bikes etc - explain that you have told the owners etc & that you are worried for your 3 kids.

I believe that Egar said on another site "punish the deed not the breed" & that is so right! If a dog attacks then punish the dog but dont punish every dog of that breed.

Most bull breeds were bred & kept as family pets to guard the woman & children while the men were at war & they often earned the nick name of nanny dogs - this is what 99% of these dogs are soft gentle family pets - even the dogs bred to fight are still human friendly they just do not like other dogs.

Humans have a lot to answer for! & a lot of us have lost the humanity that we were born with! We treat animals with contempt & this needs to change! We are not gods we do not have the right to mess with nature! & that includes training dogs to attack!

lightening

CiaranC wrote:

*edit* Note to self, dont post on boards while drunk. Apologies

LOL... good man Ciaran, your not an idiot, it was a pretty good point.

Irish-Lass

Sarah I think you have rattled a few cages with your post, its been read by The Party

EGAR

Yes, I know, I have just received this :

Dear Sarah,

I understand now that your posting on Boards.ie is one of the sources for the untrue, unfounded and libellous allegations that I and/ or the Labour Party is/are in favour of the mass slaughter of dogs.

The Control of Dogs Regulations 1998 you cite and quote at length in your posting were signed by another political party, and another politician: current government/Fianna Fail Minister Noel Dempsey (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/front.html).

In my statement (http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/116774140890584.html) I said that in my view "we should be looking to impose an outright ban on certain breeds".

Your leap from me expressing that view to concluding that I or my party is in favour of slaughtering dogs is fallacious logically, and quite ridiculous. What I am calling for is a debate about the issue and the consideration of the question of whether or not further legislation on this issue might be the way forward. My personal view is: I think we should look at further legislation in this area. But that does not mean I am in favour of slaughtering dogs, nor does it mean my views on this issue would not be altered during the consultation process that such a review would necessitate, nor (most especially since I am a scientist, as well as a politician) that I am uninterested in being politely pointed towards relevant peer reviewed international research on the issue.

I am attaching a word document containing just some of the vast number animal health and welfare issues I have raised with the government since I became the Labour Party's spokesperson on animal health and welfare. I have pursued the Government vigorously on animal welfare issues during my tenure as the Labour Party spokesperson for animal health and welfare. Your singling out of me and my party as being somehow anti-dog is particularly unhelpful and discouraging (though of course one irrational commentator will not deflect me from the challenges anyone faces in Ireland if they aim to bring about a humane, modern and evidence-based animal welfare regime in the Republic of Ireland).

The challenges policy makers such as myself face in achieving this goal are no where more apparent than in the following: as soon as I noticed last March that Ireland had neither signed nor ratified the European Convention on the Protection of Pet Animals I questioned the Minister for Agriculture and Food as to why not. After further detailed questioning of her and other ministers, it became apparent that there is no government minister responsible for non-canine/non-exotic companion animals in Ireland. Odd as that sounds, that is the situation. As far as i know, I have been the first politician to speak openly about this situation, and I shall not rest until we do have a Minister who can accept responsibility for the health and welfare of all animals in Ireland. I mention this issue as only one of many in the animal health and welfare area that as opposition spokesperson for animal health and welfare I am pursuing at any one time.

You are doing animal health and welfare in Ireland a disservice by misrepresenting my views in the way you have. Concentrating the understandable frustration anyone with detailed knowledge of just how badly provided for animals are in legislation and enforcement in Ireland must feel on me, and on my party, will not help your cause. Try venting that frustration at the government, not someone in opposition who is really doing everything within their power to revolutionise the animal health and welfare situation in Ireland? You should note that there are only two political parties in Ireland which even have an animal health and welfare policy (http://www.anvilireland.ie/fulcrum.html?ep=5), a summary of which I append below.

Given that you have made these false and unfounded allegations against me, I would be grateful if you did your utmost to ensure my reply to them is circulated in at least the same fora as the groundless allegations you have made against me have appeared or been heard.

Yours sincerely,

Mary Upton TD
Labour Party Spokesperson on Animal Health and Welfare

WHAT else does an outright ban mean?

And sending out standard emails to each email you receive from different peeps doesn't help either .

RuggieBear

Good on Mary Upton.

EGAR

Party member?

Knee jerk reactions do not work and BSL is proven not to work. Outright banning as she calls for will mean the death of thousands of dogs, simple as that. None of my emails have been answered properly - all I got was standard emails that everyone else I know received. And to put the blame on the *other* party, PMSL!

Politic at its finest.

I am NOT going away.

Sarah

RuggieBear

EGAR wrote:

Party member?

Not at all.

Just good to see a measured reasoned response from a politician to a misrepresenting zealot on a bulletin board.

EGAR

Right then, WHAT is going to happen then to the breeds she plans to have outlawed? We are talking thousands of dogs here, already living and breathing. She never answered my question about that . It has nothing to do with being a zealot, I have seen it before: politicians use the hysteria to get votes and push for legislation that is not sensible .

Our man in Havana

How is Egar a zealot?? her views are not shared by her alone! An outright ban will mean the death of thousands of dogs! Where else are these dogs going to go? What other country will take thousands of dogs that the Irish can no longer keep??? Who will pay for these dogs to be shipped elsewhere if that is what the labour party is proposing will happen???

As I said earlier ban these breeds & where will the ban hammer stop? Ban all dogs?? Cats??? Rabbits cause they can bite?? It gets to be beyond a JOKE.

All animals can bite fact! A few large dogs have maimed or killed why must they all suffer for this fact?

I imagine by now that the labour party have received 1000's of emails & yet hardly anyone has had a proper response! Maybe politicians should think twice about any press releases if they do not want to hear the arguments & angry rants of animal & dog lovers all over Ireland!!!!

John_C

Politician wrote:

I said that in my view "we should be looking to impose an outright ban on certain breeds".

Your leap from me expressing that view to concluding that I or my party is in favour of slaughtering dogs is fallacious logically, and quite ridiculous.

She has the cheek to accuse you of dodgy logic? She's in favour of banning certain dogs but refuses to look at the obvious result of that policy.

Well done Sarah, keep the pressure on her.

Kathy_BBBA

RuggieBear wrote:

Not at all.

Just good to see a measured reasoned response from a politician to a misrepresenting zealot on a bulletin board.

Perhaps we should call for your breed to be banned - huh?

The majority of people who have sincere concern for animals, including all the so called "restricted breeds" do not support the call for the ban because of one incident.

Some interesting links which might educate you RuggieBear:

Therapy Dogs

From Near Death to Bomb Detection Dog: How a Pit Bull is Working Hard to Keep Us Safe

Greyhound

EGAR wrote:

Party member?

Knee jerk reactions do not work and BSL is proven not to work. Outright banning as she calls for will mean the death of thousands of dogs, simple as that. None of my emails have been answered properly - all I got was standard emails that everyone else I know received. And to put the blame on the *other* party, PMSL!

Politic at its finest.

I am NOT going away.

Sarah

And this thread is not a knee jerk reaction?? How do you know exactly what she means by outright ban? Could it be a ban on breeding or further import or selling of certain breeds, with a register of exisiting dog??

From what I understood from the press release, Mary Upton is quite rightly calling for informed debate on the matter with a view to enforcing existing legislation which is at present ignored.

She also states,
"There is a case to be made for setting up a national inspectorate to deal specifically with the most aggressive breeds" this doesn't mean that thousands of dogs will be killed. You are pre-empting something that hasn't happened and probably wont happen.

You say "Ireland has called for the mandatory banning of all dangerous dogs listed on the restricted breed list outlined below" Did I miss something, where does it say that in the statement???

You also have to remember that these are the views of 2 individual members of a political party, it is not necessarily party policy. (Oh and before you ask, I'm not a member of the Labour party or indeed any other political party.)

The sad fact is, many of these breeds are used as a macho symbol and in the wrong hands, like any breed, can be dangerous, not necessarily to humans, but certainly to other dogs.

Any strategy for tightening up legislation would have to take account of the fact that many dogs on the restricted breed list are owned by responsible people and these animals are valued pets. I don't see where Mary Upton has said this wouldn't happen???

She is right that there needs to be enforcement of the law and perhaps stricter control of the owners of some of these breeds. There are estates in Dublin where these dogs roam without supervision terrorising other dog owners and I for one would be in favour of control of these owners. If that is what Mary Upton is proposing, I would definitely be in favour.

I wouldn't get too excited anyway, the recommendations on dog breeding establishments is sitting on the Dick Roches desk since last year and still nothing has changed, legislation changes tend to be slow in coming in Ireland.

EGAR

She is right that there needs to be enforcement of the law and perhaps stricter control of the owners of some of these breeds. There are estates in Dublin where these dogs roam without supervision terrorising other dog owners and I for one would be in favour of control of these owners. If that is what Mary Upton is proposing, I would definitely be in favour.

Those were questions I did put to her in previous emails and which she did not reply to. However, this thread woke her up and prompted her into action and in her lengthy email, she did not answer ONE of my questions about the implementation and DETAIL of her proposed legislation. So there!

Greyhound

EGAR wrote:

she did not answer ONE of my questions about the implementation and DETAIL of her proposed legislation. So there!

But she hasn't said she has any proposed legislation, she is generating a debate on the subject, she'd be some woman if she came up with proposed legislation that quick!!!

I think the very fact that she has made any statement on the matter shows she has some interest animals, I didn't see too many other politicians talking about this or any animal related matter recently. Strangely enough, the Labour party is one of only 2 parties that actually have any sort of an animal welfare policy. Mary Upton is also someone who is quite vocal on animal issues in general so I would be surprised if she didn't do her research before coming up with any sort of proposals.

EGAR

Sigh, read her email and press statement. The wording *outright ban* is NOT from me.

peasant

Greyhound wrote:

The sad fact is, many of these breeds are used as a macho symbol and in the wrong hands, like any breed, can be dangerous ...

She is right that there needs to be enforcement of the law and perhaps stricter control of the owners of some of these breeds. There are estates in Dublin where these dogs roam without supervision terrorising other dog owners and I for one would be in favour of control of these owners. If that is what Mary Upton is proposing, I would definitely be in favour.

Do you see where the real problem is?

On one hand you talk about THESE DOGS and on the other you mention THESE OWNERS.

The list of "dangerous dogs" is a random pick of dogs that by their sheer size and looks appear "dangerous" to some people. In another thread somebody asked "Why are black labs not included ?" because he or she found them to be intimidating.

Trying to control dogs (any and all dogs) by putting certain dogs on a list is the wrong approach.

There are plenty of estates and villages all around Ireland, where ALL MANNER OF DOGS roam without supervision. Only the big ones attract media attention though because, let's face it, a yapping West Highland Terrier or Shi-Tzu chasing Charlie Bird down the road just doesn't make good footage, does it?

It is still happening though ..all over the place. There are incidents happening every week, where some dog bites its owner, the vet, a neighbour, the postman, causes an accident by running out in the road, etc, etc ...
But these incidents don't get reported, in fact they are regarded as "harmless" because the dog in question didn't fit the "dangerous dog" description but was instead small-ish and/or cuddly looking.

So, please explain to me ...how on earth is the ban of certain breeds of dog (which will ultimatly result in the killing of these dogs in some pound) going to change anything about the general ignorance and carelessness of a certain percentage of the dog owning population?

It won't ! ...simple as that.

But whichever politician manages to get that ban implemented will get the votes of those who fell for the hype in the first place ... and there seem to be a lot of those.


It is therefore of the utmost importance to get away from that stupid list approach, blaming a certain small group of dogs for the general failure of a large group of dog owners.

If there ever was to be an act it should be the "Control of dangerous dog OWNERS act"

The dogs are innocent in this!

Mr Burns

Has anyone contacted the national papers to highlight the Labour partys attitude and contempt to dog owners. It would be fitting if Mary Upton and Joe Costello were outed to a much wider audience.

Anyone tried contacting Pat Rabbitte for his view?

Our man in Havana

The idea that the dogs if banned will not be killed is laughable! It happens every day already in Irish pounds without people like Egar more of these lovely dogs would be destroyed! I rescued a rottie from one of the Dublin pounds a few years ago - it was obvious that in the 3 days he was in the pound he was not fed he was so close to death, when I got him we thought he would die! Duke was the gentlest dog you could ever know - I know he was beaten by his previous owner - raise your voice & he screamed in fear it took a good few months for him to trust us but he never ever attempeted to growl at us - even when kiddies jumped all over him he sat there & gave a little lick.

I believe it was Joe Costello - Labour TD who has called for the mandatory banning of ALL dangerous breeds.


Note the word mandatory that is why us dog lovers are a tad upset this means murder in our eyes - where will these dogs go???? To the death chamber which is why Egar used the word holocaust!

Our man in Havana

Read his blog here - http://www.joecostellotd.blogspot.com/

Reverend Paul

President Theodore Roosevelt
President Woodrow Wilson
Michael J Fox
Helen Keller
Fred Astaire

.. to name but a few.

I think that the way forward on this issue is to require breeders of so-called "dangerous dogs" to obtain a special licence to do so. The terms of this licence would require them to carefully screen potential dog owners for people they think would make unsuitable owners. They would also be empowered by law to perform random spot checks on successful applicants. In addition, anyone convicted of a serious criminal offence (robbery, drug dealing etc.) would be prohibited from owning such animals. This could be done by requiring potential dog owners to obtain a special certificate from a Garda station to prove to the breeder that they are "of good character". This would protect both the breed of dog and responsible dog owners.

Although I don't own a listed breed of dog, a neighbour of mine has the most beautiful Alsatian in the world. I would hate to see her have to part with the dog simply because of an ill thought out knee jerk policy.

I sincerely hope Ms Upton is serious about being open minded towards alternatives. I think it would be a dreadful shame if hasty thinking were to take hold among politicians.

Incidentally, does anyone know where I can obtain dog bite statistics for Ireland? To the best of my knowledge, "dangerous dogs" have not been responsible for any fatal human attacks in this country. I am open to correction on this.