immigration

gary9112

living in cork at the moment and in my local area in the past 2 months about 23 workers from one building site have been replaced by immigrants, because the guy who runs the company closed it down and reopened it 3 weeks later under a diffrent name, same site same equitment same management except no irish workers only eastern europeans. Im hearing it everyday now irish people getting replaced by foreign workers, and the anger towards immigrants is increasing every day.I personally cant wait until the general election and i believe the there will be a anti immigration party set up by then or a least a lot of independants standing on the anti immigration platform, i will personally vote for any person or party that has a anti immigration policy and i know a lot of other people will aswell, that will show the goverment and left wing media what the irish people really think.

Hobbes

based on all your threads why don't you just feck off back to stormfront.

Avns1s

I wondered reading your post if your issue is with the migration of eastern europeans into Ireland or rather with the unscruplous exploitation of these immigrants by Irish employers out for a quick buck?

It's worth remembering that while there are some situations that the skills of the immigrants are being used to have a cheap labour source, there are plenty of situations where there are no Irish applicants for certain jobs that are generally lower paid, working during anti social hours, etc.

mike65

Yawn. Still you can ask your da and uncles about the evils of immi-er emmigration I'm sure.

Mike.

Sesshoumaru

So what? Its all the immigrants fault for turning an honest Irish business man into a crook who fired all his Irish staff? I think you are taking your anger out on the wrong people mate.

Captain Trips

Hobbes wrote:

based on all your threads why don't you just feck off back to stormfront.

I don't know - it is a big issue in modern Ireland; immigration has never happend before on this scale here at all.

However, I think that it can't really be polarised easily like the OP might suggest - the "we support multicultural immigration" vs "we are nazis" is usually how the UK media spin things.

But, many of the immigrants to Ireland have more in common with Ireland than those from elsewhere i.e., Polish people. Thankfully we don't have a Guardian vs. Express vs. Telegraph to debate immigration as in the UK although the indo is getting there on the Guardian side.

I can't see a reasonable political platform based off of immigration as things basically are going okay as the credit is still flowing - things may change sharply as rates go up and loans/credit-cards start to bite. Then we will be like the UK, which is inevitable unless basically new immigrants are forced to integrate and become basically irish, bitter and all, or else we will get the Brixton style problems. Hmm.

I do think that immigration is relevant to Politics, but maybe it's not "bad enough" to get a party going based on nationalism - yet! Perhaps the gen election after the imminent one will be different. Decades of immigration are needed to really start to have an effect on social fabric and ghettoisation. BUT, most of the people who have immigrated are basically same type of people, so there is no "immigration problem" for a knee jerk BNP party to get going off of.

The OPs problem is actually one of the greedy-Irishman-wants-more-cash type of problems.

sceptre

gary9112 wrote:

that will show the goverment and left wing media what the irish people really think.

That's what general elections are supposed to be for.

Ideally it'll show the right wing media, opposition parties and the general public what they themselves think as well. Pointless showing just the government and left wing media what the public think. Personally I wouldn't have rated the public's opinion highly after the shower they elected last time out but I'm slightly notorious for my occasional condescension.

believe the there will be a anti immigration party set up by then

Oh, they're already there, I believe the existing one got 1300 votes in the last election out of a total of 1.85 million cast. Barring a large upheaval in support (which obviously you've laid your reputation on the line to predict) they'd need to roughly treble that amount (as well as pick up a large increase in second and subsequent preferences) and move all their voters to one constituency to get a single representative elected. While it's slightly possible the former will happen, though I seriously doubt it, I can't see the latter happening.

killbillvol2

gary9112 wrote:

living in cork at the moment and in my local area in the past 2 months about 23 workers from one building site have been replaced by immigrants, because the guy who runs the company closed it down and reopened it 3 weeks later under a diffrent name, same site same equitment same management except no irish workers only eastern europeans. Im hearing it everyday now irish people getting replaced by foreign workers, and the anger towards immigrants is increasing every day.I personally cant wait until the general election and i believe the there will be a anti immigration party set up by then or a least a lot of independants standing on the anti immigration platform, i will personally vote for any person or party that has a anti immigration policy and i know a lot of other people will aswell, that will show the goverment and left wing media what the irish people really think.

I thought you were going to Canada to work, as an immigrant, according to one of your other threads?

InFront

Why do anti-immigrationists always write in one big unordered block? At least space it out a small bit. It's a bizarrely common feature of the first post in an immigration thread... were you in a frenzy when you wrote it!?

Im hearing it everyday now irish people getting replaced by foreign workers

Can you give us other examples? Like, apart from that construction firm, is it a case of Irish people getting fired and foreign immigrants being hired that evening? I'm curious. Apart from the Irish Ferries incident, I've never heard of anyone complaining about this, and certainly don't know anyone who said they had personally experienced it. Are you sure it's all that common?

and the anger towards immigrants is increasing every day

Don't agree with you one tiny bit here. If anything i think people are getting far more used to it. Minds are opening, isn't it wonderful, OP!!!

Hobbes

Captain Trips wrote:

I don't know - it is a big issue in modern Ireland; immigration has never happend before on this scale here at all.

Yes it is however as the OP has had such gems like..
"Immigrants driving tourists aways"
"Ireland to be flooded by Romanians and Bulgarians"
"Why are my threads on immigration being locked"
and calling all Romainans knackers and thieves.

I think anything he is liable to say is more a rant of a running theme then actually anything informative.

I live in hope though.

Gurgle

gary9112 wrote:

about 23 workers from one building site have been replaced by immigrants, because the guy who runs the company closed it down and reopened it 3 weeks later under a diffrent name, same site same equitment same management except no irish workers only eastern europeans.

I don't believe this story for a second, but on the basis that its true i would say that either a) the manager is exploiting immigrants or b)unskilled Irish workers were being overpaid.

With minimum wage, a buoyant economy etc. I don't see why eastern europeans who have every right to be here can be exploited, theres plenty of honest employers who will treat them fairly.

This leads to option b.

If unskilled Irish labourers are being overpaid, then we need more immigrants who will do an honest days work for a fair wage.

rediguana

I'm generally pro immigration (anti Irish even, haha) but I think it's unhelpful to dismiss any post like that of the OP as being racist etc. The issue he speaks of is a very real one for many Irish people who are employed in construction, services etc. I'm lucky enough to have a degree and (almost) a Masters and I generally don't have to compete with immigrants for jobs. My brother and sister aren't so lucky, having both been unseated from work back in the provincial town I come from, in recent months by our eastern friends. Even my mother, who has worked in the same shop, for the same manager, for over twenty years, finds her wage stubbornly stuck below E10ph and she surrounded by hardworking Poles on about E8 or E8.50.

I think immigration is a good thing, and I understand how it alleviates bottle necks in the labour market and keeps costs down etc. I feel even more strongly that a person shouldn't be condemned to a life of penury by virtue of his or her country of birth. So the best of luck to immigrants and emigrants - I admire their initiative and courage!

My family members, however, feeling the very real financial pinch of the situation, tend not to be so dispassionate or magnanimous, and would likely vote for whatever moron was to stand on an anti-immigration platform (if they were to vote at all, admittedly - though some right-wing demagogue might be the perfect spur).

I'm sure plenty of Boards heads will say 'Your family members should upgrade their skills, move up the employment ladder etc'. And indeed they should. Wouldn't it be great if you could change your character so easily?

I'm not sure what the solution is (as always!). But a lot of people in this country, for a variety of reasons, a lot of them really stupid and some of them with a basis in reality, are very anti-immigrants.

Seemingly multicultural and tolerant societies like France, Holland and (ahem) Austria have shown how the worm can turn in the presence of mismanagement. I fear Ireland may be next.

irishlordknight

I fail to understand why every time somebody writes about immigration a hole bunch of you on here including Mods jump up and down trying to put down that persons post!

Face it people in Ireland DO have concerns about immigration.

Even if you think there points are unjust you must have to agree that there is a growing army of people who feel otherwise.

The OP stated that the job closed down and reopened. If that is the case its completely wrong but not illegal.

Take a look at this link
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2220267,00.html

Its written by a British Miltary Strategist who works for the UK goverment!

Now if these people see a threat why cant you except maybe there is a problem with the way the world is changing so fast!

gandalf

Well look at his post, there are no facts in it at all, just hearsay. And then look at your last post which I closed because you had your rant and weren't prepared or able to back it up. Most of this anti-immigration hyteria is rubbish.

Did he report that employer for his actions? Did he bring it to the attention of the media who love a good sob story? I highly doubt it. I think I will file this report with the one about the Nigerian Woman who left the pram outside the bus because she couldn't be bothered to lift it in and the Social would get her a new one (ie in the file titled complete and utter bull).

As for having concerns about Immigration, everyone does there is no question about that. Why do you think the government limited the numbers coming from Romania and Hungary? As regards the Polish and other EU citizens you can't stop them coming here as we are part of the EU, the same way they can't stop you going to their country to work.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

Did he report that employer for his actions? Did he bring it to the attention of the media who love a good sob story? I highly doubt it. I think I will file this report with the one about the Nigerian Woman who left the pram outside the bus because she couldn't be bothered to lift it in and the Social would get her a new one (ie in the file titled complete and utter bull).

I prefer the one about some school banning Baa Baa Black Sheep because it offends non-nationals. Oh, and White Christmas too. Every year without fail the Sun runs this old chestnut, and hordes express shock and revulsion at the prospect of losing the cultural gem that is Baa Baa Black Sheep. Can we go on without it? I don't think I can...

Wibbs

Good post from rediguana. This is a dodgy issue, not helped by the rants on both sides. I tend to fall more towards the left in this, especially in this country.

While we can all point to other "multicultural" countries where there are failures to address large parts of the population I have some hope that Ireland may avoid much of that. For a start we were never a colonial power like most of the others and we're not (directly at least) involved in many of the conflicts going on today. We also formed large immigrant groups in the past. These things may be our saving grace as many groups would see us as neutral. We don't have the baggage of empire so to speak.

It does need addressing, especially with the whole integration bit that we ignore at our peril. By this I don't mean complete assimilation with the loss of individual culture on all sides, but there exists a middle ground where everyone Irish or Non Irish needs to feel they have a voice. This is especially true of the coming generation. The first generation tend to knuckle down and build a new life. The second and third generation are the ones that may feel left out and stuck between cultures. Enough of them can take the extreme of their cultures as a comfort if nothing else. If you don't give them a voice that's where the trouble starts. This is why Brixton, "Mad Mullahs" etc happens.

Karl Hungus

Why I can sympathise that boards.ie doesn't discuss immigration as much as it should, I can see why what with trollish ranting users like gary9112 there, spouting rubbish.

It seems like this kind of thread mostly gets started by your average stormfronter. I for one would like to see someone level headed, like Gandalf start a thread about immigration.

Anyway, I don't think a multicultural Ireland is going to pan out. We're flying ahead with very little in terms of preperation for problems that could arise, and it's just going to end up like England or France.

My solution? Go be an immigrant myself, and get the hell out of dodge.

Hobbes

Face it people in Ireland DO have concerns about immigration.

Yes people do, but it helps if you argue your points from actual facts instead of stories which can't even be confirmed.

Now if these people see a threat why cant you except maybe there is a problem with the way the world is changing so fast!

I think what people fail to realise is that immigration isn't the biggest fear. When you have an immigrant taking a job here they are still feeding money back into the market.

The biggest fear is that the companies up and move to the cheaper countries and hire from there. No more immigrant worries because you won't be able to fill jobs that don't exist anymore.

And before people go on about "low paid jobs" can't be outsourced, those low paid jobs exist because there are jobs in Ireland that in turn pay for those jobs.

Hobbes

Karl Hungus wrote:

It seems like this kind of thread mostly gets started by your average stormfronter. I for one would like to see someone level headed, like Gandalf start a thread about immigration.

Nice idea. I think we set up a devils advocate. I'm willing to try just for arguing sake

Heinrich

Karl

As you say, it's true that these threads are usually started by stromfronters but even in nonsense there is some sense.

Many immigrants are very badly paid in relation to their skills but accept this as they send as much of their money home as they can and do not intend to live here forever. It is difficult for a *native* to compete in therse circumstances. The ones who advocate cheap labour are not necessarily earning peanuts themselves. Can one set up a home and found a family on the money these people are being paid?

It might be interesting to discuss these issues and before we go into to the upskilling debate let us accept that not everyone is university material. Someone has to bake the bread, brew the Guinness, sell guitars, clean the jax and do the jobs that are essential to the running of society. This does not mean slave labour nor the remuneration that goes with.

The multicultural element could very easily lead to the national identity being eroded away. We already have a dim view of an teanga, ceili music, Joyce, Behan, 1916 whilst having a pretty significant Celtic, ManU, best boozers in the world sub-culture.

If we just want to be europeans then your comment about gettin out is valid.

Karl Hungus

Heinrich wrote:

Karl

As you say, it's true that these threads are usually started by stromfronters but even in nonsense there is some sense.

Not saying there isn't sense there, and that it's not a valid opinion to have, it's more the way that these guys conduct themselves, it can often be trollish, spammy and abusive, and these actions usually end with the use being banned and the thread being locked. You know what I mean?

Heinrich wrote:

If we just want to be europeans then your comment about gettin out is valid.

I'm talking about getting out much further afield than somewhere else in Europe. Essentially, no matter where in Europe you go, the same problem is already there, or is starting. I'm talking about going to the far east.

leninbenjamin

Heinrich wrote:

The multicultural element could very easily lead to the national identity being eroded away. We already have a dim view of an teanga, ceili music, Joyce, Behan, 1916 whilst having a pretty significant Celtic, ManU, best boozers in the world sub-culture.

we have never needed immigration to cause us to lose touch with our culture. Even if immigration were to stop this loss would continue.

Heinrich

Karl Hungus wrote:

Not saying there isn't sense there, and that it's not a valid opinion to have, it's more the way that these guys conduct themselves, it can often be trollish, spammy and abusive, and these actions usually end with the use being banned and the thread being locked. You know what I mean?

Indeed I but and sadly these topics should be discussed.

I'm talking about getting out much further afield than somewhere else in Europe. Essentially, no matter where in Europe you go, the same problem is already there, or is starting. I'm talking about going to the far east.

You will be getting all those in the Far East as well. You only have to look at how China is shaping up. Thailand is just an American colony so how about N. Korea.

Heinrich

leninbenjamin wrote:

we have never needed immigration to cause us to lose touch with our culture. Even if immigration were to stop this loss would continue.

Indeed it would or rather, WILL!

Still, all the proud patriot types who flaunt their celtic stuff in Majorca will belt out the 'auld cona a ta tu? when they hear another language.

Sometimes I have friend over from the continent and we chinwag in French in the pub. The cupla focail are dusted off by anyone in earshot because of the chip on the shoulder we seem to carry with pride. I was with a coloured friend recently and some boozed up clown started airing his linguistic prowess when my pal gave him a roasting as Gaeilge. That shut him up rapidos.

Will Europe eventually become like the USA? Some countries still resist the European, for instance the UK still hang on to their £££££s and Switzerland are giving lip service through the Dublin/Schengen accord.

When the poorer members become richer in the Union will we be as welcome over there? Just a thought.

Karl Hungus

Heinrich wrote:

You will be getting all those in the Far East as well. You only have to look at how China is shaping up. Thailand is just an American colony so how about N. Korea.

Specifically, I'm talking about Japan, ok? I was there last year, and it was the most phenominal experience of my life, so I'm getting back there full time.

Heinrich

Karl Hungus wrote:

Specifically, I'm talking about Japan, ok? I was there last year, and it was the most phenominal experience of my life, so I'm getting back there full time.

Sayonara and good luck to you if you get there. It will be an adventure and a culture shock. Thank god for a courageous soul who wants to go far afield where he has to learn a new and difficult language, integrate into a totally different culture and generally set up shop. A far cry from the Irish Brigade who invade (*cringe at the name*) OZ. Sitting on a plane for 18 hours so that they can do the same boozing and talk the same nonsense in a language that their mammies taught them does not constitute an adventure.

Best of luck mate when it happens.

BlitzKrieg

if it ever calms down i'd like to move to prizren

Heinrich

BlitzKrieg wrote:

if it ever calms down i'd like to move to prizren

For my ignorance iI had to google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prizren
Very interesting city and yes it will settle down.

Gurgle

Karl Hungus wrote:

Specifically, I'm talking about Japan, ok? I was there last year, and it was the most phenominal experience of my life, so I'm getting back there full time.

I've been there a few times and found the Japanese to be as mixed a bunch as you get here (or anywhere).

From being told bluntly that you can't go into a nightclub because you're a foreigner to being treated like visiting royalty, it depends on where you are and who you meet.

BlitzKrieg

for my ignorance I spent one day there...fell in love with it but couldnt pronounce the city's name right so I'm happy I spelt it right

Hobbes

Heinrich wrote:

but even in nonsense there is some sense.

Yes but a very lack of facts in that sense.

Many immigrants are very badly paid in relation to their skills

They should be getting at least minimum wage. If they aren't then it's a legal issue and the company in question can be done for it.

If you mean in relation to what Irish people are currently getting that is what an open market is called. There are laws in place to stop say someone firing me and hiring in a polish person on minimum wage (OP explains the loophole) but I am still competing with everyone. Heck I am competing with people who will never even step foot in Ireland.

but accept this as they send as much of their money home as they can

There has been no proof to this fact at all. Can you point us to such proof. If you want go with anecdotal evidence then myself when I lived in the US sent back to Ireland about 400 euro a month (to the mother) and I was being paid well at that time. A large chunk of my money in the US didn't leave the US until I left the US.

The only way I would think someone would send most of their money back is if they had a family they were supporting if they had moved to Ireland. Why would they otherwise? Especially when you say they are being paid so badly.

The ones who advocate cheap labour are not necessarily earning peanuts themselves. Can one set up a home and found a family on the money these people are being paid?

Well why don't you answer that question because you seem to imply that immigrants can and do.