immigration

irishlordknight

Duplicate post sorry!

irishlordknight

To respond to a few comments that were raised.

I can never understand why people always jump on the Trollling bandwagon?
Surely if you dont like whats being wrote argue it or ignore it!

The Sad fact is that most people that start a immigration thread are banned, talked down, or the thread gets closed.

I raise issues on hear that I know concern me and others. However more than often the Post is hijacked by stupid, offensive comments by not just Anti-immigration but pre immigration.

Threads get closed because the OP hasnt replied to questions raised to him, however please dont forget some of us have to work and cant spend every single minute on the net!

How many of you keep saying Anti immigration threads are started by stormfront members? Do you really know what you are saying? Stormfrony is a racist movement. MNow are you actually saying that most people that start immigration threads are racist? Surely claiming that fact without proof breaks the rules as well?

I for one am not anti immigration. However I do for one feel that immigration should be controlled. It is utter maddness to keep allowing uncontrolled EU citizens to keep coming to our country and undercutting Irish workers.

Now in a ideal world Europe would be the system it is supposed to be. I could work in Poland for a decent wage likewise Polish people could come work here for a decent wage. But the stark fact is there is nothing to be gained from Poland and other Eastern European countries by the Irish person at the moment. Not one of us could go to Poland and demand a decent wage. However There is everything for a Polish person to gain by coming here.

THey can earn a minimal wage that compared to home wages is a good wage.
They can claim some irish benefits and top up there wages.
Most I would claim work in low paid low skilled jobs such as shops, restaurants hotels etc. So this also means they wont be paying much in the way of tax.
And surely common sense must state that before the influx of migration these jobs would have been worked by Irish people. Now its easy to say re-educate yourself but look at FAS for instance. You have to be unemployed for over a year before you do some training. Unless your a traveller or refugee!

Now I know plenty of people who have lost there jobs to Eastern European immigrants. But these people do not have the money to fight a unfair dismmisal case in the courts. And whats the point of fighting this?

Look at Irish ferries. They sacked most of there Irish workers and replaced them with Eastern Europeans. This prooves nobody really cares about workers rights!

Now im sorry for any spell errors but i have to get back to work and havent time to spell check. Likewise I cant respond to this until later tonight or tommorow as CBB is on!

J.S. Pill

Hobbes wrote:

based on all your threads why don't you just feck off back to stormfront.

OP - you should have closed down your username then re-opened under a different username, would have fooled us all!

Heinrich

Hobbes wrote:

If you want go with anecdotal evidence then myself when I lived in the US sent back to Ireland about 400 euro a month (to the mother) and I was being paid well at that time. A large chunk of my money in the US didn't leave the US until I left the US.

The only way I would think someone would send most of their money back is if they had a family they were supporting if they had moved to Ireland. Why would they otherwise? Especially when you say they are being paid so badly.

The poster above, irishlordknight, outlines it better! The conditions in Poland are such that a Pole can send what he can afford back home and back there it will be significant.

The money you earned is of no benefit to the American economy, apart from taxes paid. This is precisely what is happening here. The foreign worker is being so badly paid that the tax he is being paid in insignificant and he is also being subsidised.

Zombrex

gary9112 wrote:

living in cork at the moment

So you aren't from Cork ... do you ever worry that you are talking a job and a house away from true Cork people who grew up in Cork and who are forced for move out of Cork because they cannot get a job because people like yourself move into Cork? Probably not.

gary9112 wrote:

and in my local area in the past 2 months about 23 workers from one building site have been replaced by immigrants, because the guy who runs the company closed it down and reopened it 3 weeks later under a diffrent name,

Moral of the story, construction is not a job for life. Construction jobs are well known for being high pay high risk. I seriously doubt any of the construction workers were that surprised.

If an IT shop I'm working in decides it is cheaper and better for the company to shut up shop and move to India I don't really have much to complain about India existing and taking my job away from me. Most of the companies that enter Ireland do so at the loss of another area in another part of the world.

I would not recommend anyone goes into the construction industry thinking they will have a permenant job for life. Anyone who does so is being very foolish.

gary9112 wrote:

Im hearing it everyday now irish people getting replaced by foreign workers

And every day foreign workers are having their jobs replaced by Irish workers.

We now live in a global market place. You better get used to it, because it doesn't look like that is going to change any time soon. Even if you stop other Europeans coming into the country to work, that isn't going to stop your company moving to where the workers are.

gary9112 wrote:

i will personally vote for any person or party that has a anti immigration policy

Would you vote for them if they kicked you out of Cork?

gurramok

The OP may have a point.

I think the law is pretty weak preventing cases of people getting sacked for being paid too well and replaced with cheaper labour as a company can close shop and the re-open under a different name.

It may have happened in construction but it has certainly happened in a publicised case in the bar trade last month.
This case was the Submarine Bar in Crumlin, Dublin(http://www.barkeeper.ie/News_Item.asp?News_ID=447 )

As FAS has predicted a serious slowdown in job creation in '07, more cases of companys replacing experienced employees with cheaper ones (whether Irish or not) will come to public eye this year imho.

Zombrex

irishlordknight wrote:

It is utter maddness to keep allowing uncontrolled EU citizens to keep coming to our country and undercutting Irish workers.

Why is that "utter maddness"?

irishlordknight wrote:

But the stark fact is there is nothing to be gained from Poland and other Eastern European countries by the Irish person at the moment. Not one of us could go to Poland and demand a decent wage.

That isn't true at all. I know 5 Irish people working in Poland at the moment. You are also completely missing the point of the EU. In 1980 you would be hard pressed to get any European workers wanting to come to Ireland, yet we were flocking to Britian etc. Should Ireland have been kicked out of the EU because we could not offer anything to unemployed French people?

irishlordknight wrote:

THey can earn a minimal wage that compared to home wages is a good wage.

That isn't true.

The cost of living in Ireland is far higher than in Poland. They make more money, but they have to spend more money to stay here. They don't come here because of the high wages, they come here because there are lots of jobs, which there aren't in Poland.

irishlordknight wrote:

Most I would claim work in low paid low skilled jobs such as shops, restaurants hotels etc.

They do. The reason they work in these jobs is because the Irish won't. These low sector industries are begging for more foreign staff because they simply cannot get the Irish staff to fill the demand for these services. Hence the "lots of jobs" and the reason these foreign people come here in the first place.

irishlordknight wrote:

So this also means they wont be paying much in the way of tax.

They pay the same rate as an Irish person working the same job.

irishlordknight wrote:

And surely common sense must state that before the influx of migration these jobs would have been worked by Irish people.

"Common sense" tells us that Irish people won't work these jobs, which is why there is such a demand for foreign labour in the first place.

After the Celtic tiger, and the huge increase in education Irish people have all started looking for well paid highly skilled jobs. But the service industry didn't just go away. In fact , due to our increased wealth, the service industry sky rocketed. So who is going to work in these low paid, low skill jobs serving the new rich affluent Irish? Foreign workers of course.

McDonalds aren't choosing to staff their resturants with Chinese students. Spar don't have a policy that all Deli staff have to be Polish. This is the way it is because that is the way the market has made it. Irish people won't work in McDonalds. Irish people won't work in the Deli counter in Spar. Irish people are too busy going to college and becoming electrical engineers and IT graduates.

irishlordknight wrote:

Now its easy to say re-educate yourself but look at FAS for instance. You have to be unemployed for over a year before you do some training.

One of the annoying things about threads like this, and the reason why "troll" is often called, is the amount of mis-information given out

You do not have to be unemployed for over a year before you can join a FAS course. You don't even have to be unemployed to join some FAS training scheme.

irishlordknight wrote:

Now I know plenty of people who have lost there jobs to Eastern European immigrants.

How many, and what were their jobs? And what was the offical reason stated for them getting fired . I knew a guy who claimed he lost his job to an illegal Nigerian. When I found out that the Nigerian was doing the same job for the same money I asked someone why this guy was fired. It turns out he lost his job because he set the kitchen in the hotel were he worked on fire and was verbal abusive to the manager. The Nigerian was his replacement

irishlordknight wrote:

But these people do not have the money to fight a unfair dismmisal case in the courts.

You don't need money to "fight" an unfair dismissal case. You apply to the Rights Commissioner or to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal

irishlordknight wrote:

Look at Irish ferries. They sacked most of there Irish workers and replaced them with Eastern Europeans.

They only way they could do that is by not flying an Irish flag, and therefore not having their boats fall under Irish employment law.

Hobbes

Heinrich wrote:

The poster above, irishlordknight, outlines it better! The conditions in Poland are such that a Pole can send what he can afford back home and back there it will be significant.

And when I worked in the USA it was exactly the same condition. However the question is "Why" would they send it back? Is every polish person who is supporting themselves on minimum wages (or less according to some people) somehow also got a family or some else they need to pay or are they just sending the money back for the sake of it when the rates here would be better and sending back in a lump sum when they leave.

I have yet to see any proof of this claim that all this money is leaving the country.

Hobbes

gurramok wrote:

I think the law is pretty weak preventing cases of people getting sacked for being paid too well and replaced with cheaper labour as a company can close shop and the re-open under a different name.

The law isn't weak at all in relation to getting fired to be replaced by cheaper labour.

What the person did was a loophole in the law. Basically they declare themselves bankrupt and send all the assets to a new company which they also own. This loophole has been in Irish well before I even joined the job market.

In one company I was in they even did this twice, the second time everyone got moved to the new company except one person they didn't like (that was just a bonus of getting rid of them).

The problem in this instance isn't your immigrants, its the Irish employers screwing the system.

Heinrich

Hobbes wrote:

The problem in this instance isn't your immigrants, its the Irish employers screwing the system.

You've hit the nail on the head. The immigrants are prepared to work for bad wages here in the light of the even worse ones back home and are wide open to exploitation.

Taking bad conditions etc. to labour courts is possible and free but unfortunately these are not always availed of for whatever reasons.

From where I lived before immigrants were living in hostel type accommodation and had their own grapevine for rooting out the cheapest accommodation.

Hobbes

irishlordknight wrote:

The Sad fact is that most people that start a immigration thread are banned, talked down, or the thread gets closed.

Look if you want to continue with that discussion use the feedback forum.

If you want to discuss immigration feel free to do so but have something more then just stories to back it up.

Now in a ideal world Europe would be the system it is supposed to be. I could work in Poland for a decent wage

You can, you would just be living on a decent wage that is in relation to that country.

THey can earn a minimal wage that compared to home wages is a good wage.

They are living in a different country which has different costs. Stop comparing one without ignoring the other main fact. For example minimum wages here I could live like a king in India, that doesn't mean that someone from India who comes and works here is suddenly rich.

They can claim some irish benefits and top up there wages.

They can only claim stuff that they have paid into which would entitle them. Scary as it sounds the same also applies for Irish people in Poland.

Most I would claim work in low paid low skilled jobs such as shops, restaurants hotels etc. So this also means they wont be paying much in the way of tax.

Not all money is tax. How do you they eat? How do they enjoy themselves in their free time? How do they pay their rent? What about electricity? TV License? petrol? Car tax? insurance?

I am sure you will try to nitpick one of them but the point is that they have money they are spending in the country. They don't automatically send everything back to another country.

And surely common sense must state that before the influx of migration these jobs would have been worked by Irish people.

How about backing it up with actual facts rather then "common sense". You want to make a point back it up.

For example we used to have a nursing crisis because we couldn't fill the jobs with Irish people.

You have to be unemployed for over a year before you do some training. Unless your a traveller or refugee!

Again please back this up with some facts. Last time I checked the travelling community where Irish and refugees wouldn't have skillsets to make them viable for work. Hence training.

Also your wrong, you can do a FAS course before a year. What you are on about is if you are unemployed you are forced into training. I've been unemployed before and got a course within 3 months.

Now I know plenty of people who have lost there jobs to Eastern European immigrants.

I know plently of people who have lost their jobs for all various reasons. Remember it isn't the immigrant that is taking the job, it is the Irish employer who is.

Hobbes

Heinrich wrote:

You've hit the nail on the head. The immigrants are prepared to work for bad wages here in the light of the even worse ones back home and are wide open to exploitation.

That is not what I said at all. If someone is being exploited then its illegal. Immigrant or not.

What the immigrant is willing to do is to work for less wages then an Irish person. If a shop for example is able to get a person to fill a job on minimum wage they really wouldn't give a **** if the person is Irish or Polish. It is all the same.

The issue is when you have someone demanding a pay rise that they can't or won't agree to. In which case you get replaced by someone cheaper. If your an asset to the place where you work then you would get a pay increase.

I wish people would stop with the "then compared to their home country". They are not living in their home country when they are working here.

irishlordknight

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
It is utter maddness to keep allowing uncontrolled EU citizens to keep coming to our country and undercutting Irish workers.

Why is that "utter maddness"?

Because it will damage the Economy.

America already limits the number of migrants.

You cant keep having a influx of migration without the Economy adapting. How many Migrants have we had in the past 3-4 years?
Add that yo Asylum seekers and natuaral population growth.

Now Tell me how many new schools have been built, Hospitals, Has the Services of this country such as social housing been adjusted to meet these new requirements?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
But the stark fact is there is nothing to be gained from Poland and other Eastern European countries by the Irish person at the moment. Not one of us could go to Poland and demand a decent wage.

That isn't true at all. I know 5 Irish people working in Poland at the moment. You are also completely missing the point of the EU. In 1980 you would be hard pressed to get any European workers wanting to come to Ireland, yet we were flocking to Britian etc. Should Ireland have been kicked out of the EU because we could not offer anything to unemployed French people?

You know 5 people working in poland. Are they working for a polish company or foreign company?

What wages are they on? How does there wage compare to the Polish average wage. I used Poland as a example, look at Romania where the annual average wage is something like €3,000 P.A.

You say im missing the point of the EU. Im not, The E.U was set up origional for free trade! THe idea of the EU in principle is good but it reality it dosent work. Look at VRT, illegal under free trade laws!

As for noone coming to work here in the 1980`s of course they didnt. Ireland was a poor country back then. But the only poor country in a pool of Rich Countrys. Now we have loads of poor countrys mixed with a few Rich Countrys that restrict movement of EU workers such as Germany and France banning Polish workers free Movement to work in there countries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
THey can earn a minimal wage that compared to home wages is a good wage

That isn't true.

The cost of living in Ireland is far higher than in Poland. They make more money, but they have to spend more money to stay here. They don't come here because of the high wages, they come here because there are lots of jobs, which there aren't in Poland.

The cost of living maybe far higher in Ireland than in Poland but migrants mainly dont live as the Irish do.

What is Exspensive in Ireland?

Cars? They Already have there own.
Food ? 1 person is cheaper to eat than a family.

I know many migrants that rent a house or a room with other migrants. This lowers there rent. They all shop at lidl or Aldi which is a lot cheaper than Dunnes or Tesco. They dont go to the Pubs much, they work, eat and sleep. THey Claim certain benefits which they are entitled to and send what ever money they dont need back home. These people are my neighbours. Lovely people just trying to live.

But the point is even if they spent half there wages living and sent half home the amount they send home is still a massive increase on what they could earn back in Poland, Romania etc.

You also say they dont come here because of the high wages, they come here as theres lots of jobs. But if there is few Jobs back in Poland how come 5 of your mates found jobs there? Also are you telling me your 5 mates all speak Polish?

Furthermore Irish going to work in the Uk would be the normal without Europe anyway as we have so many charters and agreements between the Common Travel Area. We share similar Cultures, Language etc. Plus Most Irish have family living in the UK as Millions of Uk Citizens claim Irish Relatives. The Same Can not be sid of Eastern European Countries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
Most I would claim work in low paid low skilled jobs such as shops, restaurants hotels etc.

They pay the same rate as an Irish person working the same job.

Thats my point, they pay hardly anything at all. So where is the benefit to the Economy? At least Irish people spend all there income inIreland with the exception of Holidays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
And surely common sense must state that before the influx of migration these jobs would have been worked by Irish people.

"Common sense" tells us that Irish people won't work these jobs, which is why there is such a demand for foreign labour in the first place.

After the Celtic tiger, and the huge increase in education Irish people have all started looking for well paid highly skilled jobs. But the service industry didn't just go away. In fact , due to our increased wealth, the service industry sky rocketed. So who is going to work in these low paid, low skill jobs serving the new rich affluent Irish? Foreign workers of course.

McDonalds aren't choosing to staff their resturants with Chinese students. Spar don't have a policy that all Deli staff have to be Polish. This is the way it is because that is the way the market has made it. Irish people won't work in McDonalds. Irish people won't work in the Deli counter in Spar. Irish people are too busy going to college and becoming electrical engineers and IT graduates.

How do you work out most Irish dont want these jobs? Who used to pull pints in a pub? Who worked in the shops, who built houses long before Eastern European Migrants?

Irish people did. The only reason employers seek migrants is so that they abuse them. But of course Employers arent stupid. Most wont break the law, they know that a Eastern European will except the minimum wage without joining a yearly union demanding a wage increase. (Irish people do as the cost of living goes up each year). Eastern europeans wont moan if they are given 30 minutes notice of a shift change. Irish people will. Eastern Europeans wont moan if they are working long shifts without breaks. Irish know there rights and will. I work in retail and new of a Slovakian department Manager who used to sweep the floors every night at the end of his shift in a €300 suit! He was head hunted in Slovakia, Started in Cork, and witihin 1 year had worked in Cork, Dublin, Sligo and ended up in Castlebar. He ended up leaving to go home as he felt he was being abused!

The point is he was being abused by a major Irish retailer. The Irish Managers wouldnt sweep the floors and certainly wouldnt move around the country like he did. The Fact that he put up with it for a year shows that migrant workers will put up with crap standards that Irish people wont!

You say Irish people are all looking for better jobs? Is Trinity College full of Mature students then re-training? You cant just say that the service industry was left high and dry withou a irish worker in sight!

We do have a few Thousand unemployed you know!

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
Now its easy to say re-educate yourself but look at FAS for instance. You have to be unemployed for over a year before you do some training.

One of the annoying things about threads like this, and the reason why "troll" is often called, is the amount of mis-information given out

You do not have to be unemployed for over a year before you can join a FAS course. You don't even have to be unemployed to join some FAS training scheme.

Thats my problem you claim mis information is trolling. Have you ever considered some people might have just got there facts wrong? That is not Trolling that is getting something wrong. And If Im wrong i accept im wrong. What I should have said was in other to take a FAS job under the CE Scheme you have to be unemployed for over a year or be a traveller or refuge.

People do make mistakes but i hardly would call that Trolling. I never even heard of Trolling until I first reading Boards.ie!

Originally Posted by irishlordknight
Now I know plenty of people who have lost there jobs to Eastern European immigrants.

How many, and what were their jobs? And what was the offical reason stated for them getting fired . I knew a guy who claimed he lost his job to an illegal Nigerian. When I found out that the Nigerian was doing the same job for the same money I asked someone why this guy was fired. It turns out he lost his job because he set the kitchen in the hotel were he worked on fire and was verbal abusive to the manager. The Nigerian was his replacement

My Cousin lost his job in a factory. He wasnt kept on after his probationary period ended. Now it could be that he wasnt any good at putting a piece of wood into a saw mill, but the fact that a Latvian guy started the week after doing his job didnt really give him much hope!

A friend of mine worked for another Major Irish retailer. He worked there for years, he left for another job, didnt like his new job so decided to go back to his old job. THey were delighted to take him back but offered him his old job with €10,000 per year less. He asked why, they replied that they no longer needed to offer such attractive salarys as they was a vast pool of experienced managers available to them.

My Wifes Brother has been unable to get employment for a year now. He was a Hotel night Manager. He left his job for a career break, but since trying to get a job back he cant find one that will pay the wages. He can actually earn more unemployed with benefits than he can find a job for! He Has 6 kids and rents a house! His rent is paid for and he comes out with nearly €500 a week in Job Seekers allowance, add to that Child benefit of €1000,00 per month and early child supp at the rate of €1000,00 every 3 months. He wants to go back to work but cant afford to take a pay vcut from his benefits! He said the wages used to be higher but market forces have driven the pay scale down!

Add to this all the stories we hear from other people and you can see why immigration is having a bad effect on the country!

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
But these people do not have the money to fight a unfair dismmisal case in the courts.

You don't need money to "fight" an unfair dismissal case. You apply to the Rights Commissioner or to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/ca...fair_dismissal

Of course you can, this will take months, eventually end up with a small fine for the company and the person blacklisted as someone who will sue you if they dont have there rights. No employer will touch you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishlordknight
Look at Irish ferries. They sacked most of there Irish workers and replaced them with Eastern Europeans.

They only way they could do that is by not flying an Irish flag, and therefore not having their boats fall under Irish employment law.

But the point is a Irish Company got away with sacking there irish workforce to replace them with Migrants. So what if they cant fly a flag, they still use the name IRISH! Now I remember France taking a claim about champagne to the EU court because Other countries were claiming they made Champagne also. France argued that Champagne can only come from the region of Champagne in France. Guess what the EU agreed and France won there case. So you can only use the name Champagne if you make and sell champagne in FRANCE!

So has the Irish goverment taken Irish Ferries to court for usinbg the word IRISH? I doubt it!

Also look at moneypoint. Irish companies tendered for bids at moneypoint. They lost. A foreign company with no disregard for Irish Law won the bids, because they were cheaper. We found out why they were cheaper because they were breaking Irish law and cheating there employees by paying werll below the Electrician minimum wage which i think is something like €18 per hour. They were still receiving above the state minimum wage. So what did our beloved Irish Goverment do? Did they tell this company to get lost, take back the contract and give it to a Irish company who did obey employment law? Of course not. They simple gave them a small fine, order that the foreigners be paid the correct wage.

Thats the Point!

Now again apologies for any spell erros or mis types as I now have to get back to my job!

irishlordknight

irishlordknight wrote:

Threads get closed because the OP hasnt replied to questions raised to him, however please dont forget some of us have to work and cant spend every single minute on the net!

Bull.In all my years reading and modding this forum,I think my inteligence is enough to work out the routine with most but not all of these threads (some are genuine).

How many of you keep saying Anti immigration threads are started by stormfront members? Do you really know what you are saying? Stormfrony is a racist movement. MNow are you actually saying that most people that start immigration threads are racist? Surely claiming that fact without proof breaks the rules as well?

Bull.
We take a view on this type of bull because well frankly theres no originality.
It's the same premise every time.
You lot don't even do a good job of making each one of these threads (when the humour takes you to visit us) that different from the next one.
I guess thats a symptom of virulent racism - the need to get it out and express it over rules the ability to couch it properly.
You might try harder the next time but remember , you are not dealing with eejits here.

I for one am not anti immigration. However I do for one feel that immigration should be controlled. It is utter maddness to keep allowing uncontrolled EU citizens to keep coming to our country and undercutting Irish workers.

Bull.

Now im sorry for any spell errors but i have to get back to work and havent time to spell check. Likewise I cant respond to this until later tonight or tommorow as CBB is on!

I presume you mean CBBC.

I'm locking this thread now and banning you ILK for blatant trolling.
This is a discussion forum and not your personal ignore valid backed up points arena or soapbox.