No Mods looking after the Darts Forum

Dub13

smashey wrote:

Amz is the cmod of sports. This includes darts.

Another question,is Darts a Sport...?

oleras

Dub13 wrote:

Another question,is Darts a Sport...?

Might be in the olympics in 2012 afaik !! :cool:

cast_iron

Dub13 wrote:

Another question,is Darts a Sport...?

Yes, it is a recognised sport.

Some interesting points and, in fairness to Talliesin, some valid ones. If Kingp35 thought the post warranted reporting, feedback and complaining about the lack of modding probably wasn't the right way to go about things when all is said and done.

cast_iron wrote:

Perhaps Kingp35 should have reported the posts. He chose to take it to Feedback instead - his way of reporting the posts.

Talliesin wrote:

That's like going to the police complaints commission to report that the police didn't investigate a burglary that you never reported.

Almost, but not quite. The police complaints comission won't then investigate the burglary itself. Nor will they ensure more patrols are done in the area to prevent such happening again. Kingp35 got both these results, which, in fairness to him, was his ultimate aim.

Kingp35

Boston wrote:

I think you created this problem just so you could join the boards clique. That's not right.

Stop fishing because im not biting.

Talliesin wrote:

You're comments about one of the hardest working moderators on this forum irritated the hell out of me, tbh.

Now it all becomes clear. You accepted earlier today that I meant no ill harm towards Amz and that you misunderstood me, now we have this. Seems as if there quite clearly is a Boards clique. As I already said, I want nothing to do with it, especially if this is how you act.

I dont want to be a mod on a Message Board when you have rubbish such as this.

Dev, my original points still stand. The Darts forum needs an active mod. Amz is not an active mod so someone else who posts on darts shoud be given a chance. Let Amz choose the person she would like to work with, that is the best solution. As I said, im no longer a candidate.

I have appologised to Amz for anything I may have said directly or indirectly about her abilties as a moderator, even if they were misunderstood.

Boston

You haven't convinced anyone that a mod is needed. What you need is a few trolls. I recommend posting lots of links to the forum on after hours. You'll get Five mods and all the S-mods will regularly read the forum.

The Rooster

Boston wrote:

You haven't convinced anyone that a mod is needed.

All the regular posters on the darts forum are convinced, whatever thats worth. And Kingp35, being the most helpful poster on the forum, is the almost unanimous of those posters to be the active mod to assist amz as Cmod - and not one regular objected to Kingp35's nomination.

6th

So he's the popular choice? Popularity isnt the deciding factor in choosing a mod.

Maybe he would be great for it but this thread hasnt shown that.

If he put his hand up and said 'Yep, I was wrong I should have reported the posts properly' then people would see that he's capable of admitting his mistakes.

Firewalkwithme

6th wrote:

If he put his hand up and said 'Yep, I was wrong I should have reported the posts properly' then people would see that he's capable of admitting his mistakes.

Judging by the many threads in this forum complaining about moderators, not being able to admit to their mistakes seems to be a pre-requisite for the job.

Choosing a moderator for the Darts forum really should have been a very simple process and it would have been had certain people kept their noses out. Now it's just turned into a farce and I would say it's very likely that if Kingp35 doesn't end up being made moderator (which he probably won't now he has withdrawn) then whoever is chosen is likely to be seen as an outsider to the regular posters on the forum as their appointment is likely to be resented.

For those who have had no interest in darts until this issue arose and decided to get involved, consider this. Darts by and large is played by a small and tightly knit community. There is a sense of community among those who play darts (go to any tournament to see this for yourself) largely because of the complete lack of knowledge most people have about the sport. That is why, in my opinion, the only suitable moderator for the Darts forum would be someone from the existing group of regular posters.

6th

I'd agree with you to a point. I used to play quite a bit and for the most of it people not involved dont understand but I dont think that to be a good mod you have to be an expert on the subject.

The OP showed that he hasnt followed proceder on the forum so does his knowledge of the subject outweight his ability to mod?

Talliesin

cast_iron wrote:

Almost, but not quite. The police complaints comission won't then investigate the burglary itself. Nor will they ensure more patrols are done in the area to prevent such happening again. Kingp35 got both these results, which, in fairness to him, was his ultimate aim.

Sorry. We sorted out his problem for him despite his lack of co-operation in seeing such problems sorted, so he did well?

Kingp35 wrote:

You accepted earlier today that I meant no ill harm towards Amz and that you misunderstood me, now we have this.

That was before I re-read the Charter

Kingp35 wrote:

Seems as if there quite clearly is a Boards clique.

There's lots of cliques. Amz isn't really in any clique I'm in though, I barely know her at all.

I think the clique that's built up around the Darts seems to be a lovely little circle, tight-knit but not unfriendly to new-comers, my sincere congratulations to all the regular posters there.

Kingp35 wrote:

The Darts forum needs an active mod. Amz is not an active mod so someone else who posts on darts shoud be given a chance.

See, you say a second ago you've got no problem with Amz. And then you say she's lying when she said above that she is actively moderating it, albeit depending more heavily upon reports for a couple of weeks.

The Rooster wrote:

All the regular posters on the darts forum are convinced, whatever thats worth.

Now this is the important part in my opinion.

All of the reasons I've seen given for the need of a moderator have nothing to do with what a moderator does.

We're the janitors. We clean and tidy. That's it.

Your janitorial needs seem to be adequately fulfilled.

Seriously, that's all that moderators do.

We do get some tools that could let us do very bad things, but janitors aren't normally considered glamourous just because they could open lockers without permission or blow up a building's central heating system.

The reasons I've seen given for the need for a moderator have referred to stuff that isn't janitorial.

Let's take the idea of organising a tournament.

Firstly, this sounds like a very good idea. The attraction to the forum's regulars is obvious, and it could be popular beyond that group (personally, I'd briefly consider it, and then remember that I consider it an achievement if I even get the dart to hit the board, and conclude that it probably wasn't for me unless it was quite clearly labelled as "having a laugh with some darts and some pints" [another possibly good event] rather than a "tournament").

So, how do you go about this.

First you decide if there are any costs. If there are you decide whether it's going to come out of your own pocket, going to be split between a few people who think it's a good idea, or going to be ticketed. You might also decide to make it ticketed with the proceeds going to something else (whether a charity or another idea you have for the forum's members - but be clear about what was raised, if you made lots let people know, if you made a loss there's no shame in admitting that either).

Start a thread in Darts. Get feedback on the idea and a rough idea of numbers (or learn that nobody seems very interested, or a lot of people have exams coming up, or some other reason why you might have to shelve the idea - you can't be successful every time you try to do something). Once you've got enough of a response to indicate its worth going ahead ask a mod to sticky it until the event is going, so it doesn't fall below the fold while plans are afoot.

Then you book a venue - most likely a pub with a dart board.

Since it's a boards event (being based wholly or partly around one of the forums here) you can start a thread in the Events forum as well as the Darts forum. This will get people who would be interested in darts more aware of both the event and the Darts forum.

Then you do a bit of meeting and greeting at the event to try to ensure that anyone new to the group doesn't feel too left out.

Then you play darts.

Not a single piece of this involves moderating. The only thing modding would help with is you wouldn't have to ask for the thread to be stickied - and that's not entirely necessary either, just a convenience.

What's more, this is the reality of how these things happen. Sure, the people doing them are often mods, but they often aren't. The majority of events for boards as a whole have been put together by people with normal user status in boards as a whole, and some that aren't moderators anywhere.

You do require a bit of a leadership thing going on, a complete newbie to the group would have difficulty getting people to follow their lead on the plan. A moderator may or may not be able to get people to follow their lead in this way because moderation is orthogonal to leadership. There's actually a great advantage to the moderator not being the more natural "leaders" in the group as leaders can lose the run of themselves a bit sometimes (if they've just slogged to put together an event that lots of people enjoyed and someone starts calling them a moron because they didn't like the fact that the venue was 5 minutes further from their home than another one that they didn't even bother to suggest when possible venues were being discussed it's quite understandable that they might respond in a fashion that would lead the moderator to warn them about [though they should of course also warn or possibly ban the person who called them a moron]).

These things help a forum in a more obvious way than moderating. Moderating is just making sure things don't go to complete crap (as I said, it's janitorial), but things like this give real and obvious value to a forum's members. They, quite rightly, also bring a lot more kudos than moderating (the vast majority of moderating is quite invisible in busy forums and not actually doing much in quiet ones).

I've done both for forums here and I have to say that being a moderator is very, very little help in organising events. Being a regular poster with a reasonably good reputation in some forums (I suspect the AH regulars just think I'm weird or something, so I'd probably have very little success there ) is the requirement.

It's way cooler, both for the person doing the organising and the other people that benefit, to do this sort of thing than to delete a couple of posts because someone hit the "Submit Reply" button three times and there were a few duplicates. I'm a lot happier about the last event I organised, even though it made a loss that left me very slightly out of pocket (no more so than a night out would have anyway, mind) than I am about any moderating I've done.

So. There's your framework for how to get something like that going. Any details that are domain-specific (i.e. you need to know about Darts to do well) you've already got the skills to deal with.

Kingp35. It seems to me that you have the interest, passion, knowledge of the game and leadership within the group to go ahead and do this. You've indicated you would like it done. Not being a moderator is not stopping you in the slightest. So why not go ahead an do it?

PM me if you can think of any way in which I can help. I doubt it, but as an S-mod I can do anything a moderator can do in any forum, and if you find a way in which moderation abilities genuinely would help your cause I promise to help in any way I can. I'm a harsh bastard and all that but I like seeing this site deliver to its users and am always happy to help anyone trying to do that.

Kingp35

Talliesin wrote:

See, you say a second ago you've got no problem with Amz. And then you say she's lying when she said above that she is actively moderating it, albeit depending more heavily upon reports for a couple of weeks.

Again you misunderstand what im saying. I meant active as in someone who contributes and posts on the darts forum. Stop trying to make it out that I have a problem with Amz when I clearly dont.

Also some good points raised above by you, ill certainly take them into consideration.

6th

A mod doesnt have to post or contribute to the forum they mod, they just have to do what they can to make sure it runs smoothly for those who do use it.

Gary ITR

6th wrote:

A mod doesnt have to post or contribute to the forum they mod, they just have to do what they can to make sure it runs smoothly for those who do use it.

Would be better if they did though as that way they would have earned the respect of the regular posters. Surely a mod that has the respect of the regular posters would be a better mod

6th

IT would be good but I dont think it makes a bettter mod. Like Tallisen said, a mod is a janitor.

Talliesin

Nope. The only way in which being an active poster affects your ability to moderate (clean up stuff) is that a lot of people are only inclined to do so if its a forum they enjoy.

Some communities have their own etiquette, and that sometimes translates into what happens online and sometimes doesn't (a lot of sport etiquette only applies to what happens during the game and doesn't translate, a lot of religious etiquette is around what one says and does translate) but even this is easily learnt by anyone.

It takes zero knowledge of a topic to delete a duplicate post or tell someone to stop calling another user an asshole.

I'm increasingly thinking that Kingp35 is a. asking for someone to do what he's already doing well - since he's already doing it well we don't need anyone doing that and b. thought being a moderator would help him do some things he'd like to see done - it won't.

Moderators are janitors.

The Rooster

6th wrote:

I'd agree with you to a point. I used to play quite a bit and for the most of it people not involved dont understand but I dont think that to be a good mod you have to be an expert on the subject.

The OP showed that he hasnt followed proceder on the forum so does his knowledge of the subject outweight his ability to mod?

Hasnt followed procedure in that he went straight to feedback to ask for an active darts mod rather than immediately reporting the post? Within 20 minutes or so the offending thread was locked, so obviously pointless to report the thread then. The job got done. No need to make a mountain out of it.

Regardless of anything else, having a darts fan as a mod would definitely improve the board. Its far easier to deal with someone who has a love of the subject and who will be a very regular contrbutor and visitor. Nothing bad can happen by giving him the chance to be mod of the darts board, and every regular will be happy with the decision...

6th

Ok so should people follow his example and instead of reporting posts they should start a feedback thread?

By all means start a thread to see about getting a mod but not at the cost of ignoring the report post function.

Talliesin

The Rooster wrote:

Hasnt followed procedure in that he went straight to feedback to ask for an active darts mod rather than immediately reporting the post? Within 20 minutes or so the offending thread was locked, so obviously pointless to report the thread then. The job got done. No need to make a mountain out of it.

S-mods shouldn't have to waste their time dealing with minor issues in actively moderated forums like Darts though.

If a moderator should be made aware of something then make them aware of it. There is no reason why a moderator should look at the Feedback forum.

The Rooster wrote:

Regardless of anything else, having a darts fan as a mod would definitely improve the board.

How?

The Rooster wrote:

Its far easier to deal with someone who has a love of the subject and who will be a very regular contrbutor and visitor.

The "Report Post" feature is pretty impersonal. You don't even know who is going to deal with it. Generally, you report it and it will be dealt with by the forum mod, if there is one, or the cat mod, if there isn't. If they're on holidays then other people with the ability to react (cat mods if its a local moderator that is on holidays, s-mods in all cases) will deal with it without you having to know they are on holidays.

"Report Posts" puts a call over the intercom saying "Clean up on aisle 6". Who deals with it is a matter for another layer of the system to deal with.

This means that moderators don't come back from holidays to a pile of increasingly irate PMs and a mess of a forum.

The very few cases where you need something more general done can be handled by PMing the moderator directly. It's perfectly acceptable to PM all moderators of a forum if you say you've done so in the PM and again this lets who-does-what get handled nicely. PMing someone to say "I want to announce this, but it might look a bit Spammy. Would it be okay?" is pretty impersonal also.

What is it you think moderators do?

Talliesin

6th wrote:

Ok so should people follow his example and instead of reporting posts they should start a feedback thread?

Anyone who thinks it will be funny to respond to 6ths suggestion as if it wasn't rhetorical and start using Feedback as a place to report posts will find themselves unable to post in Feedback.

6th, don't say things like that, it encourages the more muppetry-inclined posters to try to be funny!

6th

Christ it was rhetorical, I actually forgot for a second that people can be that stupid!

Talliesin

Well, while people can be that stupid, I was thinking more of someone doing it to act the bollix.

The Rooster

6th wrote:

Ok so should people follow his example and instead of reporting posts they should start a feedback thread?

By all means start a thread to see about getting a mod but not at the cost of ignoring the report post function.

FFS - the thread reminded him that we need an active darts mod, so he went straight to feedback to ask for one. He didnt go back to report the thread as it was locked shortly afterwards. Yes, he probably should have reported first and feedback second. But christ, given the thread got locked minutes later it wasnt a big deal.

Amazed the obstacles people are trying to put up to prevent this. As if there is the remotest chance of "something going wrong" if Kingp35 is appointed.

Although from Talliesin's recent comment:

Anyone who thinks it will be funny to respond to 6ths suggestion as if it wasn't rhetorical and start using Feedback as a place to report posts will find themselves unable to post in Feedback.

Its clear what mindset he has

Anyway from my perspective I think that all that needs to be said has been said (and a lot more besides) so I look forward to the decision.

cast_iron

Talliesin wrote:

Sorry. We sorted out his problem for him despite his lack of co-operation in seeing such problems sorted, so he did well?

In "lack of co-operation", I assume you mean not reporting posts. I think you are taking things slightly out of context - do you really thinks he was trying not to co-operate?
For him, to have met his ends, he probably did well. Personally, I didn't see the posts as a huge problem, so whether he did well or not in that respect is largely irrelevant to me.

Talliesin

The Rooster wrote:

Although from Talliesin's recent comment:

Its clear what mindset he has

That I have a mindset that thinks that if someone deliberately does something to make a nuisance of themselves they should be prevented from doing so isn't something I'll deny.

cast_iron wrote:

For him, to have met his ends, he probably did well.

That's grand up until the point that someone suggests they should be a moderator though. People making more messes aren't good janitors.

The Rooster

I have to admit you would make a great janitor in a school of little children. Presumably what makes you such a great mod. Prevention, prevention, prevention. Presedential. Everyone's a potential troublemaker. No rope. It'd be chaos around here without the janitor.

Talliesin

No, and that's why the majority of users rarely get banned. Part of what I do though is dealing with the exceptions.

This forum is not a relatively quiet and very actively moderated forum like Darts or a very busy but extremely actively moderated forum like soccer, and due to its nature it attracts a much larger percentage of people who are just acting the bollix than probably any other forum (though soccer was certainly one of the worse before the entry rules were put into place). Also due to its nature we tend to give a greater degree of leeway to people acting the bollix here, but now if any such person sees 6th's post and thinks it would be funny to search for objectionable posts and start a thread here to report them, they can't say they haven't been warned.

The Rooster wrote:

It'd be chaos around here without the janitor.

Here's a list of 18 consequtive threads in the Mythology forum:

fort Thread deleted by çrash_000

I love to watch my money grow. Thread deleted by Beruthiel Reason: spam

Cheapest shops selling soma, tramadol Thread deleted by LoLth Reason: spam

Is wanting to be popular a bad thing? Thread deleted by seamus Reason: Spam

Who wants to learn... Thread deleted by seamus Reason: Spam

Better than others. Thread deleted by hullaballoo Reason: Spam.

Odin

New Crack Lab! Thread deleted by Beruthiel Reason: spam

Web-masters DREAM Thread deleted by çrash_000 Reason: spam

North Korea vs Australia - nuclear stress Thread deleted by çrash_000 Reason: spam

Interesting article about Osama Bin Laden Thread deleted by Beruthiel Reason: spam

free casino... Thread deleted by Talliesin Reason: Spam

Help printer-toner Thread deleted by Talliesin Reason: Spam

Mythology in Film

Pooka's

What is with that hair style? Thread deleted by Talliesin Reason: Spam

buy fioricet online buy adipex online Thread deleted by LoLth Reason: schpam!

Dollar is going to rise! Thread deleted by Talliesin Reason: Virus (don't follow the link if you view this).

Three actual real threads, one thread where the post consisted of "does..?" (I think the user started, couldn't quite work out what they meant to say, and therefore left a nonsense post), one link to a virus that could infect the machines of the unwary, and 13 adverts probably posted by scripts rather than real users.

Some forums get hit with this sort of thing a lot more than others. Mythology is the worse of the ones that don't allow unregistered posting. PI and LGB often have over a dozen identical moderated posts in a row containing pornographic Spam, and that dozen is even with them being regularly permanently deleted (so that even mods can't see them).

Without the janitors it wouldn't be chaos, but it would be a hell of a mess.

That's what the moderators do. The deal with the mess or the sources of the mess. It's mostly not very hard because it's mostly doesn't involve much more than a few button-clicks. 90-99% (depending on forum) of what a moderator does is extremely clear-cut. It's only the 10-1% (depending on forum) where someone could make a reasonable call either way that's at all difficult, not in itself so much as in the fact that moderators want to see the forums do well and therefore tend not to be happy about either the decision that could lead to disruption of that forum on the one hand or could lead to a curtailing of anyone's enjoyment of it on the other. A bad moderators would see those 10-1% all over the place and feel the need to do something that involves their moderation all the time. If I'm actually using boards I normally spend less than 1% of my time moderating (if I'm not because I'm busy or not in the mood for boards I will still tend to respond to reported posts and PMs).

Many of the smaller forums can be quite adequtely moderated without the moderator(s) doing a single thing that only a moderator can do for months on end.

Anything else they do they do because they tend to be helpful posters and/or expert posters in at least a couple of forums, but they would be that anyway if they weren't moderators. All the forums I moderate directly (Paganism and Sex & Sexuality - my resigning from Religion / Spirituality and taking just Paganism again seems to be stuck in a queue) have users that do those other things just as well, if not better, than I do. A moderator only needs to be a helpful and expert poster when a forum is new and doesn't already have any so someone needs to get the ball rolling.

Firewalkwithme

Talliesin wrote:

blah blah blah....

Damn you really want to have the last word don't you?

Well go on then....

Carcharodon

I find it quite disturbing the way Talliesen and others have managed to bully Kingp35 out of being a mod on the Dart forum.
It was Dev that started the thread in the Dart forum, for which he wanted self nominations and nominations of others, Kingp35 suggested himself or Rooster would do a good job and this was supported by other posters on that forum.
Talliesen, a person that probably has no interest in that Forum, decides to criticise Kingp35 and discredit him because he started a thread in Feedback instead of reporting a post, big deal - get over it.
Then Talliesen nominates a mate for moderator :rolleyes: , would it not make more sense to have a mod that has an interest and knowledge of the subject of the forum as it is with many of the forums on Boards I believe.....

Talliesin

Carcharodon wrote:

I find it quite disturbing the way Talliesen and others have managed to bully Kingp35 out of being a mod on the Dart forum.

Where?

Carcharodon wrote:

Talliesen, a person that probably has no interest in that Forum,

I've an interest in seeing all forums on this site moderated well. It was a discussion about moderation, not darts.

Carcharodon wrote:

decides to criticise Kingp35 and discredit him because he started a thread in Feedback instead of reporting a post

As I said, it was a discussion about moderation, not darts.

Carcharodon wrote:

Then Talliesen nominates a mate for moderator :rolleyes:

Really? Who did I nominate?

Carcharodon wrote:

would it not make more sense to have a mod that has an interest and knowledge of the subject of the forum as it is with many of the forums on Boards I believe.

As long as they're a good mod, since despite the increased risk of bias this means they're more likely to be motivated to keep modding.

Beruthiel

Talliesen, a person that probably has no interest in that Forum, decides to criticise Kingp35 and discredit him because he started a thread in Feedback instead of reporting a post, big deal - get over it.

Talliesin was mearly pointing out that the type of person who would make a good Mod is one who has been reporting posts when needed. It shows that this person has some idea of how a forum should be run, the person has some idea of proceedure.
Talking to the catmod and asking if she needed help for instance.
If Amz needed help then she would have asked for it in the Mod Forum. That's her job and she does it well.
It is up to the people posting in a particular forum to keep it the way they want by reporting when something is amiss.
Do you think I read every single comment/thread in PI?
I'd never get anything done. I look at threads that look dodgy or are reported by the regular posters as they know the deal. Then it's dealt with.

Then Talliesen nominates a mate for moderator :rolleyes:

A mate?

would it not make more sense to have a mod that has an interest and knowledge of the subject of the forum as it is with many of the forums on Boards I believe.....

And many forums have Mods with no particular interest.

As Talliesin has already said, that is not the first requirement when an Admin appoints a Mod.
Janitor's don't have to have a particular interest in brooms in order to sweep up do they?