should prisoners be allowed vote

thebaz

Prisoners can now vote in the next election !
Yes they are still citizens, but i would think it a consequence of losing your freedom , that you also loose the right to vote!

Rb

Yes. I believe they should. Despite them having committed crimes and being in prison for good reason, they're still citizens of this country and should have a say in how its Governed and by whom.

Oh and seeing as they've so much time on their hands in their, from reading the papers/watching the tv/etc they're probably more politically informed than some of the voters out there.

InFront

Depends on the nature of the crime. there are some people who I wouldn't like to have much say in the running of the country.
I would verge on saying 'no' in general.

Pigman II

No. But then I believe most people shouldn't be allowed to vote (myself included).

Alternatively they should let people go in and vote but they also have to answer ten (from an array of 200) randomly generated multiple-choice political questions. If they don't get 8/10 or better then their vote is nullified.

maxi-twist

New election campaign:Less jail time for certain offenders.

Dont say it wouldnt happen.

walrusgumble

i agree that many would have time on there hands and many use their time in jail usefully. but why should they have the right to vote if they have taken some one else's right to life or to live without fear. however, i would agree with in front that it would depend on the offence, say some one like a druggie.

ok he has done wrong but we should see why he is there in the first place (ok he's choice) but it be better to threat him in a safe place than to expose him to a place where drugs are esy to get.

i might be generalising, but considering some, and i mean some in case the pc brigade come marching in, of the types of people who are in prison, a group like say, oh i dont know sinn fein, might do pretty well.

faceman

Yes they should be allowed to vote. On what grounds shouldnt they?

is_that_so

Pigman II wrote:

Alternatively they should let people go in and vote but they also have to answer ten (from an array of 200) randomly generated multiple-choice political questions. If they don't get 8/10 or better then their vote is nullified.

I say yes but I do like this suggestion.

Irjudge1

faceman wrote:

Yes they should be allowed to vote. On what grounds shouldnt they?

On the grounds that they have contravened the laws of society as it has seen fit to legislate for and therefore their rights as citizens of that society should be restricted for the period of their incarceration.

Mossy Monk

of course they should be allowed

connundrum

I cannot say yes (all) or no (all) because there are too many variables. Some prisoners shouldn't be allowed food let alone a vote. Some should be let due to the nature of their crime ie. failed fine payments etc.

60% of me says no though.

randylonghorn

No, prisoners shouldn't have the vote. The whole point of incarceration is that they have failed to be responsible members of society and are therefore segregated from it, at least temporarily. It is totally illogical then to give them the right to participate in determining who governs the country.

Pigman II wrote:

Alternatively they should let people go in and vote but they also have to answer ten (from an array of 200) randomly generated multiple-choice political questions. If they don't get 8/10 or better then their vote is nullified.

I do see your point. Only problem is, with voter turnout as low as it is at present, how low would it get if we introduced something like this?

/imagines news item ...

The 20,000 members of the Golden Years party to-day achieved a landslide victory, electing 86 TDs to the Dail. Party policies include (a) closure of all night-clubs (b) curfew of 9 p.m. for under-25s (c) all radio stations to provide at least 10 hours of "Golden Oldie" music programming each day.

Party leaders attributed their phenomenal success to the amount of time which retired people spend listening to current affairs on radio / tv, and reading the newspapers.

Remember the Simpson's episode?

And it could get a lot scarier than that ...

Black Swan

Citizens should be allowed to vote. If by imprisoning someone you strip them of their citizenship by court judgement and order, then that would be a different matter. To say that some should be allowed to vote and others not, can lead to arbitrary, discriminatory (race, colour, creed, sex, national origin, social status/income, etc.), politically motivated decisons, or those used for personal, occupational gain, and besides, who decides? Big Brother? Some committee with potential religious or other types of bias? These offenders have already been tried, sentenced, and imprisoned. If the loss of voting rights are to be a form of punishment, shouldn't that be included in their specific sentencing, rather than just making a blanket rule?

Since coming to the States over a year ago, I (unlike most US citizens) have read their Constitution and Bill of Rights, just out of curiousity. Did you know that slavery is still allowed in the USA? Prisoners can be treated as slaves! I thought civilized nations had banned slavery over 100 year ago! And as slaves, most of their rights as citizens are stripped away, including voting.

Now, most of these people you imprison will be returning to your community someday. Do you want to isolate them completely from civilized processes, then all of a sudden release them out the door, completely foreign to what constitutes civilized, democratic behavior like they do in America? No wonder in the States they have a nationally reported 67 percent average recidivism rate? People joke over here that prisons are schools of crime. Do we want Irish prisons to be the same? Or should we try to transform these offending prisoners into responsible citizens someday. Provide good citizenship instruction and encourage them to become contributing members of the community, rather than social misfits or dysfunctional preditors?

Sure, some of you will say, why should we use our tax money to transform these offenders? Well, pay now or pay later (after they are released).

Steyr

I think its the same in the USA you automatically lose it even when your freed.

admiralofthefleet

it depends on the prisoner, if someone is in jail for murder then i think they definitely should not be allowed the privalages a normal citizen has, but its a different story if someone is in jail for not paying their tv license or bin charges

randylonghorn

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

If the loss of voting rights are to be a form of punishment, shouldn't that be included in their specific sentencing, rather than just making a blanket rule?

I could easily live with doing it that way; I just don't think that people who have shown contempt for the laws of a state should be allowed to participate in choosing who will make those laws.

Also, I admit that I'm not that familiar with the States, but hypothetically I could imagine that a large state prison located in a small town or rural district could actually mean that the prisoners would be the dominant voting block in that area, and that the prisoners could, in theory at least, choose the local officials?

However, when it comes to the issue of rehabilitation, I completely agree with you ... penal systems in most parts of the world are horrendous from this point of view.

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Did you know that slavery is still allowed in the USA?

Now THAT comes as a bit of a shock, tbh.

biko

They should be able to vote, of course!

A murderer, thief or rapist are free at the end of their sentence and have the same privileges and obligations as any other citizen.

It's a basic human right to be able to influence your leaders (unless you're a woman before 1928 in Ireland or black in Florida in 2000).

randylonghorn

biko wrote:

A murderer, thief or rapist are free at the end of their sentence and have the same privileges and obligations as any other citizen.

Yes ... and at that point, their right to vote should obviously be restored.

embee

Yes, they should be allowed to vote. They are still citizens of this country and are entitled to vote.

Okay so, their vote for whichever TD in their constituency won't necessarily affect them directly, but prisoners have families who are law-abiding citizens. Surely a prisoner has a right to cast a vote for a TD who, in their own opinion, will do the best job for their constituents/families/children? A man/woman in prison who has children shouldn't be denied a right to vote for whoever would do the right thing by their children.

phantom_lord

yep, citizens and all that jazz.

Time Magazine

biko wrote:

A murderer, thief or rapist are free at the end of their sentence and have the same privileges and obligations as any other citizen.

Eh.. the whole point of incarceration is to remove their rights due to abuse of their obligations. The first right the State provides for you (before education, health-care, etc.) is freedom. This is taken from them. Incarceration takes away your fundamental right to freedom, and so it should.

If they're not allowed that basic right, who says they have the right to vote? Aside from the European Court of Justice.

I'm going to start a thread in Politics about removing serious criminals' (I'm talking about John Gilligans here) right to citizenship.

KamiKazi

Yes they are still citizens, but i would think it a consequence of losing your freedom , that you also loose the right to vote!

absolutely, 100%

hence my "NO" vote

Blisterman

I think they should be allowed vote, so could help change the laws that caused them to be imprisoned.
Imagine Nelson Mandela was able to vote.

Tar.Aldarion

Their punishment is being excluded from society, their right to vote should be forfeit until their sentence is complete.

No.

StupidLikeAFox

Im sure most of them wouldnt really care.

thebaz

ColHol wrote:

Im sure most of them wouldnt really care.

I thought it odd to see big expensive half page adds in the main broadsheets outling the new prisoners voters rights -- can't see the Irish Times being top of the reading list in Mountjoy!

Ruu_Old

No vote for prisoners, goes with the rest of the punishment. Do the crime, do the time (and whatever else along with it)

r3nu4l

I think prisoners should have the right to vote but to be honest I wonder how many of them would exercise that right?

On another note, I believe that people who consistently fail to vote in elections/referenda should be regarded as having opted out of the right to vote and therefore barred from voting for a period of five years. Failure to vote once permission has been re-established should result in permanent exclusion.

thebaz

r3nu4l wrote:

On another note, I believe that people who consistently fail to vote in elections/referenda should be regarded as having opted out of the right to vote and therefore barred from voting for a period of five years. Failure to vote once permission has been re-established should result in permanent exclusion.

That seams very harsh - surely if you have the right to vote , you should also have the right not to vote !
What happens also, if you believe your choices to vote for, are rubbish , I don't see a problem with people not voting , if they don't want to .

r3nu4l

thebaz wrote:

That seams very harsh - surely if you have the right to vote , you should also have the right not to vote !

Hee hee, it's amazing how upset people get when you take something away from them, even if they have always refused to use it

thebaz wrote:

What happens also, if you believe your choices to vote for, are rubbish , I don't see a problem with people not voting , if they don't want to .

I believe that if you think all the choices are cr*p then you should at least bother your backside to show up and spoil your vote in protest.

If enough people did that and did so intelligently then politicians would see that there are people out there who want to have a say but feel they don't have enough choice.

I still think prisoners should have the right to vote. If they don't then you get what happened in the USA with Gerorge Bush effectively rigging the vote to suit himself.

purple'n'gold

The vast majority of the riff raff that make up the prison population would have no interest in voting anyway.

wyndham

r3nu4l wrote:

I think prisoners should have the right to vote but to be honest I wonder how many of them would exercise that right?

I would say a higher percentage than in "mainstream" society, given that there is fck all else to do in there and it may provide a distraction for a few minutes.

Was Liam Lawlor still a TD at the time of his incarceration? I can't remember. Should/are prisoners be allowed to hold political office? Wasn't Bobby Sands elected as an MP? Can they run for office?

NotMe

No in general. You'd lock someone up for breaking the law and then let them have a say in how the country is run?

Collie D

It's a bit of a grey area. Can understand why people would want to deny murderers, rapists, child abusers, etc. the right to vote but there are also people in prison for petty crimes eg non-payment of fines and debts (very Dickensian but true). These people at the lower end surely shoudln't be denied a say in a society they are temporairly removed from.

randylonghorn

r3nu4l wrote:

I still think prisoners should have the right to vote. If they don't then you get what happened in the USA with Gerorge Bush effectively rigging the vote to suit himself.

OK, maybe my brain is on strike, but could you explain the link there, please?

Blisterman wrote:

I think they should be allowed vote, so could help change the laws that caused them to be imprisoned.
Imagine Nelson Mandela was able to vote.

And admittedly, here is where we come into a grey area. Should people who are imprisoned for civil disobedience / protesting against what they see as an injustice be deprived of the vote? ... e.g. what about the Greenham Common women / CND protestors / etc. ... would we agree that they should be disenfranchised? I wouldn't, actually, despite being a "no" overall on this, which is why I thought Blue_Lagoon had a good point earlier:

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

If the loss of voting rights are to be a form of punishment, shouldn't that be included in their specific sentencing, rather than just making a blanket rule?

tolosenc

They absolutely should not ever be allowed to vote again once they are convicted of a crime. Commiting a crime is breaking the rules of a society. If you break the rules, you shouldn't get any of the benefits. Simple as that.

Collie D

obl wrote:

They absolutely should not ever be allowed to vote again once they are convicted of a crime. Commiting a crime is breaking the rules of a society. If you break the rules, you shouldn't get any of the benefits. Simple as that.

So you've never smoked a joint, watched a pirate DVD, broke the speed limit? Sounds like you're a fine, upstanding member of society

Flukey

They should be allowed to vote. There was an interesting discussion on this today on Liveline. Fr. Peter McVerry was on and was saying that very few of them would vote, just a handful out of thousands. He also went on to say that the poor don't vote as they only have about 20% of the vote, which makes no difference against the other 80%. Of course this is not the case, under our electoral system. Because of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, 20% can easily be enough to elect some candidates.

One vote may not make a difference, but all together, those votes can and do make a difference. Each of us has only one vote, but people do get elected. So votes do count. The "They're all the same and my vote doesn't make a difference" line is ridiculous. It is ironic that many people that constantly give out about politicians never use their vote to change things.


The other ones you hear are "I have no interest in politics" and "It doesn't affect me." Ok, you may not be a member of a party or watch the news or current affairs programmes, but politics most certainly does affect you and like it or not, you do have an interest. Nearly everything around you is affected by politics. Unless you live in a hole in the ground, it affects you, so it is in your interest one way or another.

Mortmain

Who ever said that the idea of prison wasto take away someones rights? Whilst it may have that effect, many proponents of the prison system would say that the real aim was rehabilitation. I don't see how completely removing every last hope of one's participation in society will advance this achievement. If the aim of the penal system was purely punishment why aren't all convicts locked up for the whole of thier lives (and fed gruel for that matter).

Given the amount of crooks involved in running the country does it not seem a little ironic to exclude persons from suffrage on the grounds that they have transgressed the law?

P.S. I wonder how many of the "string 'em up" brigrade actually vote themselves??

Kojak

Personally I don't believe that prisoners should be allowed to vote.

If they break the law they don't want to comply with the laws of the state -so I don't think they should have any say on who makes the laws for the state.

Our man in Havana

Next you will have prisoners running for election.

Kingsize

so called Democractic systems are based on "one man one vote" so they should,
(Prisoners that is) personally I don't vote, dont get me started on that one but if someone decided
to take away my right to vote (or not) then i'd be up in arms!
The simplest thing a dictator can do is lock up the "criminals" & deny them the right to vote- never mind what the crime is.

Prisoners going for election?
Not too unrealistic when you think of some of the crooks in power.
the only difference between some of the People
in mountjoy & some of the People in Leinster house is that they got caught.

What would convicted criminal & former minister for Justice Ray Burke do?

hottstuff

The only thing they should be allowed to vote on is who gets to drop the next soap in the showers.

arybvtcw0eolkf

IMO prisoners should have the right to;

Pi$$, $hit, eat (2000kCals daily), drink (water only) & a bed at night.

And if old people and their dependants can be made pay nursing home fee's then so too should prisoners be charged a daily rate.

I also believe prisoners should be paraded in the mornings and afternoon's to be inspected for cleanliness and soberity & again last thing at night.

I also believe there should be an entertainments hall with a TV, to be viewed at 18:00 & again at 21:00 for the news on RTE and absolutely no TV or Radio allowed in the cells.

All inmates should be made a uniform too.

Only on christmas day should they get a fry up in the mornings & be allowed one hour extra TV.

Sierra Oscar

Yeah, but its not as if any of them actually will:rolleyes:

hottstuff wrote:

The only thing they should be allowed to vote on is who gets to drop the next soap in the showers.

Rofl...

randylonghorn

Mairt wrote:

IMO prisoners ...etc. ...be allowed one hour extra TV.

If you ever forget to pay your TV license, mate, I hope you don't get a judge whose ulcer is playing him up! :rolleyes:

junkyard

As far as I'm concerned, prisoners shouldn't have any rights if they want to live like scum they should be treated like scum. Bread and water, a concrete cell with bars on the windows and straw on the floor is too good for them tbh. If the prisons were like the monkey houses in Thailand they'd be thinking twice before they turned to crime again. Irish prisons are like 4 star hotels compared to prisons in other countries.

arybvtcw0eolkf

randylonghorn wrote:

If you ever forget to pay your TV license, mate, I hope you don't get a judge whose ulcer is playing him up! :rolleyes:

I'm a law abidding citizen. I wouldn't even know what the inside of a court room looks like. And FYI, I'll never forget.

lucernarian

Criminals are in prison for the common good, not for their own benefit. Why then should prisoners be able to determine how society is governed if they are not allowed to take part in society on any other level?

A definite No from me.

Ickle Magoo

If someone is found guilty of any crime that warrants their removal from society, then I think that person should automatically loose the right to vote for the duration they are incarcerated. It seems crazy to me that someone who cannot adhere to the laws that govern Irish society is allowed to elect those that make the laws or vote on a referendum regarding law changes.

I think the argument that prisoners deserve to be able to vote "for their families" is laughable - try not being a criminal & avoid prison if you want to be a good spouse or parent! :rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bond-007 wrote:

Next you will have prisoners running for election.

hehe - Bobby

They should be allowed, but part me is afraid Sinn Fein will get more votes.

Not a good reason to deny their right - so a one hundred per cent yes from me.