Immigration- A Proper Debate

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 1:58am #1

The economic benefit from immigration is very limited. Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth. It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission in the UK, dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare.

Are immigrants doing jobs the Irish will no longer do? No. In parts of Ireland where there are few, if any, immigrants. Irish people are doing all these jobs. The fundamental problem is the benefits trap. Wages are held down to a level where for some there is little benefit in working rather than collecting benefits. Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

Where is this leading?

In the UK, There is growing resentment among the native population of whom 70-80% which?wish to see a tougher immigration policy. They feel that their concerns are being ignored, or dismissed; only 10% feel that the government is listening to public opinion on immigration. The ethnic population is also concerned about the direction of events. A majority of them (55%) also wish to see tighter immigration control. A majority of the population (69%) feel that Britain is losing its own culture.

The natural tendency of some immigrants to join their own communities, and to choose spouses from their countries of origins, is leading to the formation of parallel communities with little contact, or identification, with mainstream British culture. Indeed, in some cases the younger generation is growing up hostile to British culture.

There are also frictions between different communities, sometimes encouraged by satellite television from their home areas. E.g. Pakistani/Indian. Caribbean/Somali. Pakistani/Kurd.

There is no reasons to think Ireland is any different!

A major step must be to limit the scale and pace of further immigration.
An annual limit is essential to restore public confidence in the system.

The introduction of such a limit would be a considerable task and would take some years to be made affective, but is essential for Irelands future.

walrusgumble · 15-01-2007 2:51am

whether or not immigration is improving our economy, yes we need thighter control.

we need to sort out issues with immigrants that are here now. we need to deal with future problems such as the possibility of an irish citizen finding it hard to find work and blaming it on immigrants, this amy lead to extreme racism and est of parties like the national front.

lets work with what and who we got at this moment instead of backloging it later when more come in. we need to look at the pit falls that have occured in the uk and avoid them. to be honest it aint as easy as many think,firstly eu citizens as we all now have a right to come to find employment, that is the consequences of being in the eu, it works in our favour too mind as we can do the same. however non eu citizens cant just come in, they have a very strict immigration system to adhere to. i think the dept of justice needs to shape up and cut down on the waiting lists for applications for visa/residence permits/subsidiary protection/leave to remain and the like.

if you notice the dept have issued several hundred deportation orders, yet barely even half have been effected.

i for one have no real problem with immigrants. with regard to fas, they have a list of jobs in various sectors that need to be priortised before allowing non nationals to take up those posts. i think when immigration laws are improved, the ommigration procedure will work effectively, and sort out any fears one may have on this issue. then again maybe i am naive.

either way, it would be good to have a sensible racist free debate about this without getting this thread closed. maybe if everyone respects everyone's views and discusses this in an adult fashion we might finally get a decent discussion on this issue (something rare on this site)

Victor · 15-01-2007 3:23am

b2cmac wrote:

In the UK, There is growing resentment among the native population of whom 70-80% which?wish to see a tougher immigration policy. They feel that their concerns are being ignored, or dismissed; only 10% feel that the government is listening to public opinion on immigration. The ethnic population is also concerned about the direction of events. A majority of them (55%) also wish to see tighter immigration control. A majority of the population (69%) feel that Britain is losing its own culture.

Guide To Being English:

Drive a German car
Visit an Irish pub for a Belgian beer
On the way home purchase either fish and chips, an Indian curry, a Turkish kebab, or a Chinese takeaway
Eat said food while sitting on a Swedish sofa while watching American programmes on a Japanese television
Be suspicious of all things foreign

Oh yes and don't forget, invade half the world and complain when some of them follow you back.

InFront · 15-01-2007 8:26am

b2cmac wrote:

The economic benefit from immigration is very limited.

Right so you agree that we can benefit from immigration, not a bad start.

Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth.

So hang on then, why are the government letting them in in their thousands? They have nothing to gain from immigration if the economy won't benefit. Do you think it is a conspiracy? These guys cannot vote, why do you think they are here?

It is in the government's interest, more than anyone's, that the economy performs well. The economy is the backbone of this government heading into the general election, it is the strongest muscle they have. Would they compromise that for a colourful and multicultural society? Of course not. It's the economy -...

It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Here what Dr Alan Barrett, economist with the ERSI has to say about Ireland. He and his colleagues have suggested that immigrants have increased GNP and GNP per capita in Ireland. It also suggests that immigrants are actually working in jobs below what might be expected of them when compared with the indigenous population, but that is neither here nor there.
Can you produce some research to show that immigration is bad for Ireland?

It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

What extra infrastructure cost are you talking about?

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare.

Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

To say "it holds down pay levels" is misleading. It goes without saying that by providing a larger labour pool from which to choose from, salaries will increase at a slower rate than they would have otherwise risen by, but by no means does it hold down wages.
Alan Barret, the author of the paper I linked to, estimates that for 70,000 immigrants, the GNP rises by 3% and wages rise at a pace of about 4.5% slower than they would if there was no immigration.

And what about the idea (uneasily as it may sit with your anti immigrationism) that an increase in wage burdens on employers would actually cause them to take on less people? Especially when one considers the rate at which wages are already rising even with immigration being used.
I think the government's 'open door' policy that it shares with the UK and Sweden with regard to the Eastern Europe is indicative of such a thoughtful policy.

The natural tendency of some immigrants to join their own communities, and to choose spouses from their countries of origins, is leading to the formation of parallel communities with little contact, or identification, with mainstream British culture. Indeed, in some cases the younger generation is growing up hostile to British culture.

Ah, the 'huddled masses argument':rolleyes: Yes better not have them marrying one another eh, nothing worse than a Chinese looking Irishman. We is white.
How on earth can someone live in Ireland in the 21st century and not integrate? Are you for real?

This is a quote taken out of a book by Jacb Riis 'How The Other Half Lives' about historic migration into the USA which has always stuck with me:

"The once unwelcome Irishman has been followed in his turn by the Italian, the Russian Jew, and the Chinaman... and has himself taken a hand at opposition, quite as bitter and quite as ineffectual, against these later hordes."

frictions between different communities, sometimes encouraged by satellite television from their home areas. E.g. Pakistani/Indian.

"Pakistani kills Indian after Indian-looking character in PTV's 'Inspector Khojee disrespects Inspector's Mother" I can't see it tbh. I think we should stick the the factual evidence on immigration and not let our imaginations run away with us.

A major step must be to limit the scale and pace of further immigration.

is essential for Irelands future.

Yet you have not produced a shred of evidence to back it up.

Rock Climber · 15-01-2007 11:04am

InFront wrote:

Yet you have not produced a shred of evidence to back it up.

agreed.

Fratton Fred · 15-01-2007 11:19am

There are stacks of jobs here, I don't see what the problem is. You could take the Irish Ferries fiasco as an example, but that is more to do with ineffective legislation and greedy employers, don't blame migrants for that.

It is a changing world, immigration is a fact of life in the 21st century, you either rise to the challenge or get left behind, it's as simple s that.

The Irish have been doing it for years.

Fratton Fred · 15-01-2007 11:23am

Guide To Being Irish:

Drive a German car
Visit an Irish pub for a German beer
On the way home purchase either fish and chips, an Indian curry, a Turkish kebab, or a Chinese takeaway
Eat said food while sitting on a Swedish sofa while watching American programmes on a Japanese television
Be suspicious of all things foreign

Oh yes and don't forget, go and seek jobs around the world and complain when some of them follow you back. :rolleyes:

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 11:38am

As we dont really have anything like the research or studies that are carried out in the UK, I will provide Proof from various UK sources.

Proof of the Burden of Local Authority
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13536644,00.html

Economic Benefit - Sky News report
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-migrant_030107_2000,00.html

Immigrants cause housing shortage
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1225083,00.html

Proof of migrants keeping wages down
This is why the Irish state want them. To keep inflation down. Good for the Economy bad for the Irish Family.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-13520312,00.html

The Great Irish Ferries Saga,
Sack Irish workers, replace them with EU migrants and then let the Irish Tax Payer pay some of the bill!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0112/irishferries.html

Abuse of Migrant workers in pay sysyem
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1014/immigration.html

Moneypoint!
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0314/esb.html

sceptre · 15-01-2007 11:43am

b2cmac wrote:

This is why the Irish state want them. To keep inflation down. Good for the Economy bad for the Irish Family.

Hmmm, actually if inflation is kept down it's good for the Irish family or people in general. That's a large part of the reason why we have a policy of keeping inflation restrained where possible in the first place. Having a situation where wages chase prices and prices chase wages isn't much good to anyone. That's commonly referred to as "the early 1980s".

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 11:48am

Inflation is kept down on low wages.

Low wages is bad for people and families as it dosent help with paying morgages,
or Increase`s in living costs and standards.

And as many people claim Ireland is one of the dearest countries in europe for living standards.

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 11:56am

A report in the times today also states how immigrants coming here who cant get jobs are being sent back home by the state.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0115/1168815013049.html

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this and be of better benefit to the irish tax payer and the immigrant who becomes homeless!

oscarBravo · 15-01-2007 12:41pm

b2cmac wrote:

There are also frictions between different communities, sometimes encouraged by satellite television from their home areas. E.g. Pakistani/Indian. Caribbean/Somali. Pakistani/Kurd.

There is no reasons to think Ireland is any different!

What percentage of immigration to Ireland is made up of combined Pakistanis, Indians, Carribeans, Somalis and Kurds? How does this compare to the UK?

I suspect the answer to this question is just one "reason to think Ireland is any different".

Zombrex · 15-01-2007 12:47pm

Is it not kinda hard to have a "proper debate" about immigration in Ireland when most of your support is based on specific issues in the UK.

b2cmac wrote:

Inflation is kept down on low wages.

I'm not sure what that sentence means. Are you claiming that immigration stops wages rising for the non-skilled work force, a rise that would otherwise happen? I'm not quite sure how you could know this either way, since how do you compare a Celtic Tiger economy with immigration to a Celtic Tiger economy without immigration.

b2cmac wrote:

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this

How exactly?

DadaKopf · 15-01-2007 1:01pm

Ah, another wonderful invasion by someone from the Stormfront boards, no doubt. Only, I wonder, because this person's grammar isn't as bad as some of the others.

b2cmac wrote:

As we dont really have anything like the research or studies that are carried out in the UK, I will provide Proof from various UK sources.

It's not helpful to assume that UK studies apply to Ireland, and it's particularly disingenuous considering the selectivity of your information.

Today's Irish Times also reports the announcement of two massive research projects into immigration in Ireland. You didn't mention that. In light of this, expert groups and immigrant solidarity groups will have to be consulted in the meantime to inform official policy until these studies' preliminary findings are published.

But since you're happy to make UK comparisons, this article by Will Hutton exposes the underlying motives for your kinds of (badly written) arguments.

A major step must be to limit the scale and pace of further immigration.
An annual limit is essential to restore public confidence in the system.

So you're not opposed to immigration and the integration of immigrants in Ireland, then.

The natural tendency of some immigrants to join their own communities, and to choose spouses from their countries of origins, is leading to the formation of parallel communities with little contact, or identification, with mainstream British culture.

'Natural'. 'British culture'. 'They keep their DNA to themselves'. Rubbish. With people like you, it's no wonder immigrants turn to themselves for community support. Interculturalism requires both sides to change. That means you, dude.

Hobbes · 15-01-2007 1:11pm

b2cmac wrote:

As we dont really have anything like the research or studies that are carried out in the UK, I will provide Proof from various UK sources.

Interesting proof but like anything you should check up each one.

Proof of the Burden of Local Authority
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13536644,00.html

Hmm a government lobby group whos objective is to get more money for local authorities is saying they need more money because of immigration.

Who would of thought it.

Economic Benefit - Sky News report
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-migrant_030107_2000,00.html

Immigrants cause housing shortage
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1225083,00.html

Ooh reports by an anti-immigration group. How non-biased can you get? If you check up on the "4p" comment you will find the UK government have said to take those figures with a pinch of salt.

As for the housing shortage (again migrationwatch) in the news report you can see the UK Government have replied as it being "wrong". Also maybe I misread it but it said to me that there is more money to be made for the housing industry because of immigrants.

Proof of migrants keeping wages down
This is why the Irish state want them. To keep inflation down. Good for the Economy bad for the Irish Family.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-13520312,00.html

Of course the other end of that angle is its keeping prices down for people who use those services. But you can always shop elsewhere.

The Great Irish Ferries Saga,

Which is not really relevent as they basically flying under a different flag.

Abuse of Migrant workers in pay sysyem
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1014/immigration.html

While I believe abuse goes on that news report makes no mention at all about pay abuse. If anything it says the lower wages are due to speaking English issues. Also mentions that only half of immigrants actually avail of the social welfare benefits.

Moneypoint!
http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0314/esb.html

Shock horror a company breaking the law. The more these get reported the better. I don't get the point? This is a company abusing migrants. How is this migrants being bad for the economy?

tallaght01 · 15-01-2007 1:12pm

Could the OP clarify whether they want to see tighter controls on the number of immigrants or the number of refugess we accept? Not sure whixh group he really means.

Hobbes · 15-01-2007 1:15pm

b2cmac wrote:

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this and be of better benefit to the irish tax payer and the immigrant who becomes homeless!

How exactly? Remember a lot of those people actually had jobs when they came to Ireland.

oscarBravo · 15-01-2007 1:23pm

DadaKopf wrote:

Ah, another wonderful invasion by someone from the Stormfront boards, no doubt.

...

With people like you...

Let's see if we can debate the issues without getting personal, shall we? Ta.

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 2:10pm

I only compare to Ireland to the UK as I feel that there isn’t enough relevant information as there is in the UK.

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language, 1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

The common Travel area etc.

My own position is we do need a certain king of immigration.

We need skilled workers such as Doctors and nurses, even in some low skilled sectors a certain kind of immigration is needed. This enriches our country which im sure nobody would disagree.

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

I cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it, I for one wouldn’t and couldn’t. But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists. Better border controls with controlled migration is surely the most sensible approach for Irelands future and growth.

Someone also mentioned refugees. I for one do not think we should be banning refugees coming to ireland. I certainly feel that we should only allow genuine cases and we must do our part with the rest of Europe in helping people who are in need. But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration? At least then we would have a reflective opinion as what Members of these forums really think without the debate ending up in senseless dribble and the thread being locked.

What harm could a poll do?

Zombrex · 15-01-2007 3:05pm

b2cmac wrote:

I only compare to Ireland to the UK as I feel that there isn’t enough relevant information as there is in the UK.

Then how have you come to the conclusion that immigration into Ireland is a very bad thing?

It seems like you are putting the horse before the cart. As with so many posts on Boards.ie about immigration you seem to have already made your mind up that immigration is a very bad thing and are now searching around to find facts and figures to back this position up.

Does it not make more sense to find the facts and figures for immigration in Ireland and then draw a conclusion?

b2cmac wrote:

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language

What has that got to do with the economic effects of immigration?

b2cmac wrote:

, 1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

True. But we also share the band Girls Aloud (one of the members is from Derry). Without any proper link between these news reports and effects in Ireland any "link" between Ireland and the UK is nothing but conjector. You can argue that we are similar in some areas but equally we are very different, so it becomes rather pointless.

b2cmac wrote:

We need skilled workers such as Doctors and nurses, even in some low skilled sectors a certain kind of immigration is needed. This enriches our country which im sure nobody would disagree.

The aspect of supply and demand already takes care of that. We don't have floods of sky driving instructors from around the world rushing to emigrate to Ireland, because there is not a shortage of sky diving instructors in Ireland.

The areas that we need workers, such as nursing which you mention, are the areas that you find immigrants come over for. We don't appear (as far as I can see from any reports I've seen) to have a big problem in this country of immigrants coming over to work in industry where there isn't jobs for them.

I would also point out that what we need is rather irrelivent. The reason Poland was allowed join the EU was not because we needed their workers, and when we don't need them any more Poland should be kicked out of the EU.

b2cmac wrote:

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

That won't work inside the EU.

b2cmac wrote:

I cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

"Good" is kinda beside the point. Necessary for a working EU is more the point. It is impossible to tell how freedom of movement inside the EU will ultimately end up effecting each of the member countries 5 years down the line, 10 years down the line. I doubt anyone in the EU in the early 80s would have predicted the Celtic Tiger economy that would appear only 10 years later in Ireland.

The point of the EU is not the immediate benefit to the member states. Poland and the other new States didn't join the EU to immediately benefit us, or the UK. The joined for the long term benefit of widening the common market.

If the new states join in name only, with heavy restrictions on them that other countries don't have, then that kinda defeats the purpose of the whole idea.

b2cmac wrote:

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it

Lots of people would argue against it. For a start the Polish would have a very legitamate argument as to why it is perfectly fine for an French, German, or Belgium person to go work in Ireland, yet not perfectly fine for a Polish person to do exactly the same.

b2cmac wrote:

But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists.

What has that got to do with immigration? It is kinda hard to take your "proper debate" seriously when you come up with this kinda scaremongering. Unless you plan to closer the borders completely I'm not sure what your propose here

b2cmac wrote:

But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!

That isn't the reason refugee levels went down. No one from Poland or Romania could claim refugee status here anyway (you cannot claim refugee status unless you come from a country without a free functioning police force that can protect you from what ever you are fleeing). The refugee levels went down because the government made it harder to qualify as a refugee in Ireland.

b2cmac wrote:

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration?

That seems rather ridiculously general a question?

Does that include people from Kerry or Mayo coming up to Dublin and driving house prices up for the hard working honest Dubs like myself?

Would it include people from England, France, Spain coming and working here?

Would it include the thousands of Irish who leave Ireland each year to go work in the US, or legally in Europe?

Tea drinker · 15-01-2007 3:09pm

Yep, some good things coming up here....
But lets have a little background info:
Yes, we went all over the world, doing the welfare systems, telephone systems etc. Ok it was actually mostly english speaking countries...
Well anyway we went where we got a better life / could get into. Just like all the people coming here now. Back in the day we did not have an ass in our pants and were the hind of Europe, teetering on civil war. Everybody visiting used to wonder what life was like with all the bombs going off.

Ok NOW things are better but keeping a little of the humility we had before would be real welcome. This country is still booming for a fair % of folks and the rest of us are doin ok. That's why all these people are coming here. Some great workers, genuine people, different culture, and some nice chicks too! I'm married to one......

But... that's not all.
I thought it was very appropriate that a bunch of muslim (wow I wasn't afraid to mention religion) murderers and rapists were occupying the cathedral in town last year. Nothing against Muslims mind you but would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque?
I think there is nothing wrong with Ireland being for Irish people first.
I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability, avoid overuse of infrastructure, overcrowding, unsustainable growth and to preserve our cultural and religous heritage.
This is a Christian country and I want to see it remain as such.
The vast majority of european nations had colonial exploits and now they are reaping what they have sown. There is no need for Ireland to follow suit, we were an occupied nation.
There is an abundance of people who are welcome, we still have one of the lowest pop density in Europe.
But there is a few who are not.....IMHO

I don't understand how receiving a pre trained worker is a bad thing?
A person who hasn't taken a shred of (Irish) taxpayers money is the same value as someone who required education, medical services, police services etc while growing up....... that simply does not add up.

Discrimination, negative or positive is wrong.
People coming here to lie up on the system gave foregners a bad name. I think some of the governments mistake is being undone on the backs of the new wave of immigrants.

Zombrex · 15-01-2007 3:29pm

Tea drinker wrote:

Nothing against Muslims mind you but would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque?
I think there is nothing wrong with Ireland being for Irish people first.

You think only Irish rapists and murders should be allowed occupy St. Patricks?

Tea drinker wrote:

I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability

What is our "national stability" ... seriously, I'm not sure what you are talking about here. How is that defined, and how do we define if something is "curtailing" it?

Tea drinker wrote:

This is a Christian country and I want to see it remain as such.

This is not actually a Christian country. It is a secular country, a secular country that contains Christians, along with a lot of other religions.

You can check, its in the Constitution.

Tea drinker wrote:

The vast majority of european nations had colonial exploits and now they are reaping what they have sown. There is no need for Ireland to follow suit, we were an occupied nation.
There is an abundance of people who are welcome...
But there is a few who are not.....IMHO
...
Discrimination, negative or positive is wrong.

Discrimination is wrong, except when we are discriminating based on religion? How does that work?

Tea drinker wrote:

People coming here to lie up on the system gave foregners a bad name.

No offence, but you don't seem to be giving foreigners a particularly good name either

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 3:36pm

Error

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 3:36pm

Responses to Wicknight

Then how have you come to the conclusion that immigration into Ireland is a very bad thing?

It seems like you are putting the horse before the cart. As with so many posts on Boards.ie about immigration you seem to have already made your mind up that immigration is a very bad thing and are now searching around to find facts and figures to back this position up.

Does it not make more sense to find the facts and figures for immigration in Ireland and then draw a conclusion?

I base my views on immigration due to people I talk to and things i see or do. Now I dont want to mention these as people will jump on the bandwagon and say prove it. But my gut feeling is what I have to go with.

Also I didnt say immigration into Ireland was a bad thing. Please dont put words into my mouth. I said Immigration should be controlled. Surely that isnt a bad thing. Can you telly me why it shouldnt?

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language

What has that got to do with the economic effects of immigration?

It allows us to compare closely with our nearest neighbours. This gives us a working example of a country that has the same policy on immigration as us due to the common travel area.

1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

True. But we also share the band Girls Aloud (one of the members is from Derry). Without any proper link between these news reports and effects in Ireland any "link" between Ireland and the UK is nothing but conjector. You can argue that we are similar in some areas but equally we are very different, so it becomes rather pointless

.

the link between Ireland and the UK is exactly the same. We both adopt the same policies on immigration due to the common travel area.

The aspect of supply and demand already takes care of that. We don't have floods of sky driving instructors from around the world rushing to emigrate to Ireland, because there is not a shortage of sky diving instructors in Ireland.

The areas that we need workers, such as nursing which you mention, are the areas that you find immigrants come over for. We don't appear (as far as I can see from any reports I've seen) to have a big problem in this country of immigrants coming over to work in industry where there isn't jobs for them.

I would also point out that what we need is rather irrelivent. The reason Poland was allowed join the EU was not because we needed their workers, and when we don't need them any more Poland should be kicked out of the EU.

No it dosent. Many reports state that Highly skilled EU workers are coming here doing low skilled jobs for the money. THis is clearly explotation. A controlled system would surelly benefit High Skilled workers as much as Ireland, as put a end to explotation.

Also I sure everyone would agree Driving instructors are something we do need. But because we dont have any control of who comes here and who they are what they do we cant see where skilled workers go. A points system would see who people what they do and allow them access to the Irish Labour Markets.

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

That won't work inside the EU.

Why? The British are talking about it. Germany France etc didnt even let in Poland etc.

And surely each country can bring this matter up to the EU. And since when have countries really cared about EU policy? France kept defying the Ban on British beef for years despite being fined by the EU.

I

cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

"Good" is kinda beside the point. Necessary for a working EU is more the point. It is impossible to tell how freedom of movement inside the EU will ultimately end up effecting each of the member countries 5 years down the line, 10 years down the line. I doubt anyone in the EU in the early 80s would have predicted the Celtic Tiger economy that would appear only 10 years later in Ireland.

The point of the EU is not the immediate benefit to the member states. Poland and the other new States didn't join the EU to immediately benefit us, or the UK. The joined for the long term benefit of widening the common market.

If the new states join in name only, with heavy restrictions on them that other countries don't have, then that kinda defeats the purpose of the whole idea.

Surely and Goverment or head of state of Ireland should Ireland first. We are not in the EU to benefit Poland etc. When Ireland benefited from the EU in the 80`s, how many Irish flocked to Germany, France, Spain etc. Certainly not as many as have come here. Controoled migration would still allow these countries access to Irish Labour markets but in controlled way.

And surely it cant be good for places like Poland to be loosing there Labour markets to places such as Ireland? Dosent Poland need these workers also?

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it

Lots of people would argue against it. For a start the Polish would have a very legitamate argument as to why it is perfectly fine for an French, German, or Belgium person to go work in Ireland, yet not perfectly fine for a Polish person to do exactly the same.

But that is already the case. Polish workers cant work in France, Germany or the home of Europe Belgium!

But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists.

What has that got to do with immigration? It is kinda hard to take your "proper debate" seriously when you come up with this kinda scaremongering. Unless you plan to closer the borders completely I'm not sure what your propose here

Because we dont know who comes through our borders. These rights were given away so that we could allow the uncontrolled movement of migrant workers. Just how are we going to stop a low skilled Romanian worker coming to work here? We say they can but how do we stop it. Controlled Immigration would give us back control of our borders to help prevent abuse on all levels.

But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!

That isn't the reason refugee levels went down. No one from Poland or Romania could claim refugee status here anyway (you cannot claim refugee status unless you come from a country without a free functioning police force that can protect you from what ever you are fleeing). The refugee levels went down because the government made it harder to qualify as a refugee in Ireland.

But because of the amount of immigrants coming here, we restrict the number of Asylum seekers we allow.

How else do you explain the drop in Asylum?

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration?

That seems rather ridiculously general a question?

Does that include people from Kerry or Mayo coming up to Dublin and driving house prices up for the hard working honest Dubs like myself?

Would it include people from England, France, Spain coming and working here?

Would it include the thousands of Irish who leave Ireland each year to go work in the US, or legally in Europe?

Whats wrong with a poll. Surely the Idea of a poll is ANYONE can vote. It could even be that most people are in favour of uncontrolled immigration.

Hobbes · 15-01-2007 3:37pm

Tea drinker wrote:

I thought it was very appropriate that a bunch of muslim (wow I wasn't afraid to mention religion) murderers and rapists were occupying the cathedral in town last year.

Your wrong. There were a group of people occupying the church of which one or two of them were wanted for crimes. The rest were not. You also neglected to mention that there were people who weren't even refugees in the Church who were also hunger striking.

Nothing against Muslims mind you but would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque?

Muslim isn't a country. It's a religion. Also what you should be saying is "would a bunch of Paddies be allowed to occupy a mosque in XXXX" (insert Iran, Iraq, etc). Good question.

Although I suspect your trying to imply they would be killed or something. Of course "what if" arguments are great but totally devoid of facts.

Also why compare ourselves to the worst? Why not compare ourselves to the best and try to beat or emulate them.

I think there is nothing wrong with Ireland being for Irish people first.

I am sure Irish Muslims are happy to hear that.

I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability, avoid overuse of infrastructure, overcrowding, unsustainable growth and to preserve our cultural and religous heritage.

Which we have yet to see any proof this is actually happening. You appear to know, how about posting some proof.

This is a Christian country and I want to see it remain as such.

So anyone who isn't Christian should leave? What about the Jewish people or third generation+ Muslims? You argue about others being intolerant to other religons yet appear to want the same.

Also I have no idea what age you are, but I still remember a time when the Catholic church had a large hold on the government and it wasn't pretty. Even now they have somewhat of a grasp that is screwing up the country to some extent.

There is an abundance of people who are welcome, we still have one of the lowest pop density in Europe.
But there is a few who are not.....IMHO

Who is this few?

People coming here to lie up on the system gave foregners a bad name. I think some of the governments mistake is being undone on the backs of the new wave of immigrants.

What do you mean lie up on the system?

Hobbes · 15-01-2007 3:42pm

b2cmac wrote:

I base my views on immigration due to people I talk to and things i see or do. Now I dont want to mention these as people will jump on the bandwagon and say prove it. But my gut feeling is what I have to go with.

Well that's great if your talking down the pub but in this forum your expected to research and present your claims.

I noticed you skip over a lot of the questions.

Also ask yourself this. If a person worked in a complaints department in Ireland do you think they would see the full demographic of Irish people or only those that complain?

b2cmac · 15-01-2007 3:50pm

Hobbes wrote:

Well that's great if your talking down the pub but in this forum your expected to research and present your claims.

Thats why I said I didnt want to talk about my own views. But everything I have said has been backed up by Proof.

I noticed you skip over a lot of the questions.

Im sorry but what questions did I skip. I will try and answer any and every question I can.

Also ask yourself this. If a person worked in a complaints department in Ireland do you think they would see the full demographic of Irish people or only those that complain?

But this isnt a complaints department. This is a forum. Such we hear both sides. A complaints department like you state only hears complaints.

Im sorry but what questions did I skip. I will try and answer any and every question I can.

DadaKopf · 15-01-2007 4:05pm

But everything I have said has been backed up by Proof.

Except that, by your own admission, we don't really know all we should know about what is going on in Ireland in terms of immigration and integration.

Tea drinker · 15-01-2007 4:07pm

No offence taken, we need to be open here.
I do feel there's nothing wrong with my statements on foreigners, please understand that from my point of view it's ok to criticse what I see as wrong..... obviously enough.

National stability, well the previous war based on religion/oppression/nationalisn etc in Ireland will do us for a while.
Riots in France, rise of fascism (again) in germany, British national party, riots in uk a few years back, all were sowed because of poor immigration policies / colonialism. Why not manage it?

Don't get me started on our own (Irish) scumbags, but this forum was only dealing with good/bad on foreigners!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.
Ok, yeah, I did discriminate based on religion... but I won't apologise for that. I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country, and that is not meant to offend Muslims. It's how I feel and like I said, if the shoe were on the other foot they would feel the same, I think.

The main point I am struggling to get across is I am VERY happy to see foreign workers coming here, and they certainly are adding to the economy. There are many well educated guys and gals coming here and making this a more skilled-up country. The vast majority are hard working folk who either want a new life here or want to get a few bob together to buy a place at home. I can't fault anyone for that.
Clear enough?

oscarBravo · 15-01-2007 4:16pm

b2cmac wrote:

Im sorry but what questions did I skip.

Well, for a start:

oscarBravo wrote:

What percentage of immigration to Ireland is made up of combined Pakistanis, Indians, Carribeans, Somalis and Kurds? How does this compare to the UK?

b2cmac wrote:

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll?

No.

b2cmac wrote:

At least then we would have a reflective opinion as what Members of these forums really think without the debate ending up in senseless dribble and the thread being locked.

Do your part by not posting any "senseless dribble", and I'll do my bit as mod to stop anyone else from doing so.

Tea drinker wrote:

I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country...

Why?

Tea drinker · 15-01-2007 4:23pm

Can I make one request? If we are going to post here, please post your OWN comments and opinions, rather than just commenting on those gone before??? Please comment away on others by all means as well.....

Immigration- A Proper Debate

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