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Immigration- A Proper Debate
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b2cmac wrote:Thats why I said I didnt want to talk about my own views. But everything I have said has been backed up by Proof.
I haven't seen any proof at all. In fact you don't appear to research any of your claims. Everything you posted looked like 2 minutes in google search with absolutly no research on the backgrounds to the stories.
In some cases it even looks like you didn't even read the stories you linked to.Im sorry but what questions did I skip. I will try and answer any and every question I can.
Read back.But this isnt a complaints department. This is a forum. Such we hear both sides. A complaints department like you state only hears complaints.
I am not talking about this forum. I am talking about peoples "personal views". If I worked in a complaints department all I would see is people complaining so my world view would be of one that all Irish people are moany bastids. When this would be incorrect.
It is not enough to "trust your gut" or base your world view on your personal experiences. They help to a point but your not going to learn unless you research your claims to determine if they are actually true.0 -
Were they? Can you establish this, and show that it wasn't - for example - sown by an unwillingness of enough of the population to accept the immigrants rather than treating them like second-class citizens?Tea drinker wrote:Riots in France, rise of fascism (again) in germany, British national party, riots in uk a few years back, all were sowed because of poor immigration policies / colonialism.
Correlation <> Causation.
Our immigration is managed. You - or anyone else - has yet to establish that it is badly managed nor suggest what better management would entail.Why not manage it?
White too. Does that mean we should keep out people of different skin colour?As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.
It doesn't matter what the demographics are. What matters is the law, particularly teh constitution. The Constitution makes discrimination on religious grounds illegal.
You're entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion doesn't permit the government to act unconstitutionally.Ok, yeah, I did discriminate based on religion... but I won't apologise for that. I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country, and that is not meant to offend Muslims. It's how I feel and like I said, if the shoe were on the other foot they would feel the same, I think.
Also, "I'm sure they'd do it to us" is about the weakest possible argument for suggesting that something is right.
Finally, I'm wondering if you object to the decreasing levels of Christianity in Ireland. It has nothing to do with immigration, I know, but the church has been steadily losing its hold on the populace, fewer are enrolling to the priesthood, atheism and agnosticism are on the rise.....but amazingly we never see half so many threads complaining about all of these threats to our Christian nation as we do to the influx of other religions. Indeed...regarding the influx of other religions, there only ever seems to be one which is mentioned again and again.
Strange, that. Wouldn't you agree?
Not really, because this is at odds with your opposition to Muslims.The main point I am struggling to get across is I am VERY happy to see foreign workers coming here, and they certainly are adding to the economy. There are many well educated guys and gals coming here and making this a more skilled-up country. The vast majority are hard working folk who either want a new life here or want to get a few bob together to buy a place at home. I can't fault anyone for that.
Clear enough?
Foreign, hard-working, adding to the economy, skilled, want a new life and/or get a few bob, and muslim.......where do you stand on such people? They seem to fall both into the people you object to and those you say you've no problem with.0 -
I don't see a need to frame the debate on those terms. The OP has presented a point of view that s/he would obviously like others to agree with. If others see problems with that point of view, they can challenge them - it's not necessary for them to nail their colours to the mast first.Tea drinker wrote:Can I make one request? If we are going to post here, please post your OWN comments and opinions, rather than just commenting on those gone before??? Please comment away on others by all means as well.....
Back on topic.0 -
b2cmac wrote:I base my views on immigration due to people I talk to and things i see or do.
Is that not a bit silly, considering you could not possibly be able to get a wide view of the complex issues involved by simply forming your opinions based on the very limited contact you would have with immigrants.
The "I heard from a mate in the pub.." type posts are particularly frowned upon in the Politics forum. They are given about as much weight as taxi drivers opinions.b2cmac wrote:But my gut feeling is what I have to go with.
Your "gut" feeling is not really something to base the immigration policy of a nation on, is it?
I never quite understand what people mean when they say this. Immigration is controlled. Immigration has always been controlled.b2cmac wrote:Also I didnt say immigration into Ireland was a bad thing. Please dont put words into my mouth. I said Immigration should be controlled.
Do you mean immigration within the EU Free Movement zone should be controlled?
Geographical location doesn't appear to have a whole lot to do with similarities between countries with regard to economic circumstances. After all Poland is located closer to German than we are to the UK.b2cmac wrote:It allows us to compare closely with our nearest neighbours.b2cmac wrote:This gives us a working example of a country that has the same policy on immigration as us due to the common travel area.
The UK has rather different economic circumstances to us at the moment. Therefore any conclusions draw from studying the UK with regard to immigration would be rather circumstantial at best. They would certainly apply to the UK, but to say that they also apply to us because we are located near (geographically speaking) the UK is nonsense.
Of who? The skill of the worker has little to do with whether or not someone is being exploited. Exploitation applies to the working conditions and the pay for the job itself. It doesn't matter if a doctor is doing the job or a leaving cert student.b2cmac wrote:No it dosent. Many reports state that Highly skilled EU workers are coming here doing low skilled jobs for the money. THis is clearly explotation.b2cmac wrote:A controlled system would surelly benefit High Skilled workers as much as Ireland, as put a end to explotation.
I'm not following. How?
Not within the EU, no we don't have control.b2cmac wrote:Also I sure everyone would agree Driving instructors are something we do need. But because we dont have any control of who comes here and who they are what they do we cant see where skilled workers go.
But I'm not sure how having control over this would help us that much. If driving instructors aren't coming here, how does kicking out the English guy working behind a bar, or the Polish lady at the Spar deli counter, going to change that fact?
Yes but only for a fixed amount of time. We choose not to avail of the option because we actually wanted all these immigrants. Does that not tell you something...?b2cmac wrote:Why? The British are talking about it. Germany France etc didnt even let in Poland etc.b2cmac wrote:And surely each country can bring this matter up to the EU. And since when have countries really cared about EU policy? France kept defying the Ban on British beef for years despite being fined by the EU.
So you aren't a fan of the EU then ... fair enough, but do you not think that we availed of the best of the EU for years during the very hard years in Ireland? Is it not a little hypocritical of us to now turn around and complain about people coming to Ireland, complaining when you have still to make a link between immigration and any serious long term damage to the State.
"First" in relation to what exactly? We have the best economy we have ever had and we have the lowest unemployment figures we have ever had. After years and years of other countries helping us out, either with infrastructure funding or taking on our unemployed work first, we have emerge out the other end pretty damn good. How exactly could we be any more "first"?b2cmac wrote:Surely and Goverment or head of state of Ireland should Ireland first.
Yes actually, we are. We took from the EU when we were poor and in desperate need of funds. We cannot do that and not give back to the newer member states who now find themselves in the same position we did in the 70s and 80s.b2cmac wrote:We are not in the EU to benefit Poland etc.
Hundreds of thousands. In the 1950s we were losing people at an average rate of 43,000 a year, and in the 1980s the average was 27,000 a year. 70,000 emigrated from Ireland in 1989 alone.b2cmac wrote:When Ireland benefited from the EU in the 80`s, how many Irish flocked to Germany, France, Spain etc.
It doesn't work like that. Poland has a population that is 10 times larger than Ireland. They are losing less of their population to emigration than we wereb2cmac wrote:Certainly not as many as have come here.b2cmac wrote:And surely it cant be good for places like Poland to be loosing there Labour markets to places such as Ireland? Dosent Poland need these workers also?
Do you actually understand why these Polish people are coming to Ireland? I don't mean to patrionising, but sometimes, based on comments like this, it makes me wonder do you?
Poland has a 14% unemployment rate at the moment. These workers are coming to Ireland because we do not have enough workers for the jobs we have available. We have the lowest unemployment in the EU, yet we have a still growing economy, and an increasingly wealthy population. Which means lots of business for the services industry, and as such lots of low skilled jobs that need to be filled. They come here because they can find work in these jobs.
If they could find work at home, or could not find work here, they would not come here.b2cmac wrote:Polish workers cant work in France, Germany or the home of Europe Belgium!
And? Firstly France German and Belgium don't have our economy (they wish they had)
Secondly surely you would welcome this, since if the Polish immigrants cannot find work in Ireland they won't come here, and your "problem" is solved.
That isn't true. You require a passport for moving between EU countries. The country doesn't stop you, but that isn't to say that they don't require you show identification. The only movement one has where they do not need to show identification is movement within Ireland, and even then some airlines require that people show either a passport or valid driving licence.b2cmac wrote:Because we dont know who comes through our borders.b2cmac wrote:Just how are we going to stop a low skilled Romanian worker coming to work here?
Why would we want to? Considering Romania has a growing economy and low unemployment figures I wouldn't worry to much.
If you are working under the assumption that Romanian = Criminal, then we can stop anyone from entering the country, from Romania or otherwise, if we valid reason to suspect that they are engaging in illegal activities here. Though I would point out that "being Romanian" isn't a valid reason.
The same way we have always stopped it, at the airport, with guns and dogs. Probably.b2cmac wrote:We say they can but how do we stop it.b2cmac wrote:But because of the amount of immigrants coming here, we restrict the number of Asylum seekers we allow.
No we don't. As far as I know that would actually be illegal, to turn away refugees because of economic factors such as legal immigration. We are obligated to take any legitimate refugee that comes here. In fact since 1989 we have taken refugees from other countries, as part of an UN quota system.
I explain it by the European wide decrease in asylum seekers since 2003. http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=218b2cmac wrote:How else do you explain the drop in Asylum?
The reasons for this decrease are probably wide and complicated, but I see no reason to think it has anything to do with Irelands relationship with Eastern European workers.
There is nothing wrong with a poll. It keeps my tent up.b2cmac wrote:Whats wrong with a poll.
There is something wrong with your poll, the question is far far to vague to give an meaningful results. Though I notice you have now changed from "migration" to "uncontrolled immigration"0 -
I think the OP is getting at and what Tea Drinker is getting at..
If a large enough number of immigrants come here and eventually outnumber the natives, the nature of our Irish identity would be seriously challenged unless those said immigrants of whatever religion/race are integrated into society and become Irish citizens and abide by the constitution.
At the moment, an open border with uncontrolled immigration is not a good thing in my view not neccessarily on the jobs front but where they're loyalities to the Irish constitution lie if they manage to get the vote at elections without integration.
At the moment, it is reckoned about 10% of the population is non-Irish, is it a good thing if it reaches 51% without integration?..I think not.
What i think TeaDrinker is worried about is that fears are further exasperated in a religous sense if those 51% were Muslim and sought an Islamic society here, do we really like the country to turn into an Islamic society/republic by virtue of the above scenario?
If 12 other members of the EU before enlargement decided to restrict immigration from the new EU 10 back in '04, why were the pro-immigrant lobby NOT screaming racism at those countries?
Controlled immigration allows integration and assimilation into the general population more smoothly rather than allowing a reputed 400,000 in a population of 3.9m in 2 years.
I've asked this question before and no-one seems to know the answer:
Are there background checks on every immigrant for criminal convictions even if only 1% have a bad record to prevent us importing more scumbags in addtional to our own ones to deal with?0 -
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So this thread is good enough for foreigners, but not Irish?Tea drinker wrote:Don't get me started on our own (Irish) scumbags, but this forum was only dealing with good/bad on foreigners!!!!!!!!!!!
It has a Catholic slant and a Catholic preamble, thats all.As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.0 -
Tea drinker wrote:please understand that from my point of view it's ok to criticse what I see as wrong
Which is what exactly...?
So ... what? We should place a ban on protestant immigration?Tea drinker wrote:National stability, well the previous war based on religion/oppression/nationalisn etc in Ireland will do us for a while.
We do manage "it" (if by "it" you mean immigration)Tea drinker wrote:Why not manage it?Tea drinker wrote:As for the constitution, I left my copy at home today, but from a religous breakdown it is for sure Christian.
Article 44 Section 2
1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.
4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.
I've highlighted the important parts.
Trust me, being an atheist, if Ireland was a Christian State, rather than a secular state, I would probably not be still living here.
You don't have to apologies, just don't claim discrimination is wrong. You clearly think religious discrimination is fine, so long as you are doing the discriminating.Tea drinker wrote:Ok, yeah, I did discriminate based on religion... but I won't apologise for that.
It ain't in mine I assure you :rolleyes:Tea drinker wrote:I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country,Tea drinker wrote:Clear enough?
As mud.0 -
No one can have any quibble with legitimate immigration. Polish people etc are perfectly entitled to come and live and work here. My problem is with people from outside the EU that just turn up here looking for asylum. They are supposed to look for political asylum in the first EU country they enter. How for instance do Nigerians come to Ireland? There are no direct flights from Nigeria. They have to come through a 3rd country to get here, why are they not returned to that country immediately?0
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By ship?0
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gurramok wrote:What i think TeaDrinker is worried about is that fears are further exasperated in a religous sense if those 51% were Muslim and sought an Islamic society here, do we really like the country to turn into an Islamic society/republic by virtue of the above scenario?
Firstly that assumes that all Muslims who come here want an Islamic state. Which is nonsense.
Secondly you need a 2/3 majority to change the constitution, and only Irish citizens can vote in constitutional referendums. Which means, based on current population figures, you would need 8 million Muslims citizens who actually want to change the constitution to an Islamic state.
Basing current opinions of immigration on such a ridiculously unlikely situation is simply daft. It is pointless scaremongering. It also feeds the idea that Muslims are all coming here to change Ireland into an Islamic state, which leads to distrust and religious bigotry towards Muslims. How does that help intergration.
They were. A number of groups have launched legal challenges in the UK and Europe over the restrictions placed on Romania and Bulgeria.gurramok wrote:If 12 other members of the EU before enlargement decided to restrict immigration from the new EU 10 back in '04, why were the pro-immigrant lobby NOT screaming racism at those countries?gurramok wrote:Controlled immigration allows integration and assimilation into the general population more smoothly
These are EU workers you are talking about. Most probably don't care too much about long term integration.
None of my Irish friends living in Europe give two hoots about interegration with these countries, beyond learning to say "How much is that pint" and "Do you want to come home with me" (that is a different kind of intergration). They all plan to come back to Ireland within the next 3-5 years.gurramok wrote:Are there background checks on every immigrant for criminal convictions even if only 1% have a bad record to prevent us importing more scumbags in addtional to our own ones to deal with?
No, not unless you apply to work in a job that requires a background check.
You may notice you are not background checked when you go to Paris for the weekend, or fly to Scotland to go skiing for a fortnight.0 -
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how many ships come directly from Nigeria to Irealnd every year? I would guess few if any. And if they did, they would not have Nigerian crews.Victor wrote:By ship?0 -
purplengold wrote:They have to come through a 3rd country to get here, why are they not returned to that country immediately?
They can be, but often the Dublin Convention is largely unworkable. You first have to determine if they did enter another EU country before Ireland, which can be very difficult.0 -
No, its half.Wicknight wrote:Secondly you need a 2/3 majority to change the constitution, and only Irish citizens can vote in constitutional referendums.
I used "Veux tu retournez chez moi?" in a pub once, the lads objected, thinking I was a bit cheeky. I then reminded them that she was my housemate.Wicknight wrote:None of my Irish friends living in Europe give two hoots about interegration with these countries, beyond learning to say "How much is that pint" and "Do you want to come home with me" (that is a different kind of intergration).0 -
An Irish Times poll Last year showed a massive 78% of people backed ideas to introduce a work permit system.Most voters see the presence of foreign workers here as good for the Irish economy and society.
However, majorities also see their presence as making it harder for Irish people to get jobs and believe it is pushing down pay and working conditions here.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0123/3166143057HM1MAINPOLL.html
Xavier McAuliffe, the Spectra Photo founder, whose personal wealth is estimated at €60 million, said that unchecked immigration has the potential to create serious social problems in Ireland in the future
http://wicklowhills.blogspot.com/2006/06/sense-on-immigration.html0 -
b2cmac wrote:that immigrants too will age and require pensions.
dam it. i thought the chinese where immortal!:D
i see most immigrants as useful. every job i have had an interview for, i have gotten. i as a student i go for the low paid jobs. almost every chinese person i have talked to have told me they plan to go back thier with the skills they have learnt. if they chose to stay, so be it. the poles are new here and are intitled to stay here, when they fully adapt they can do courses and lean useful skills we need in the country. every arab person i have met(not that i have interviewed every arab that has come in) are either doing medicine, denistry, computers or a science subject. thus as i regard them as very usefull.
other uses of immigrants. more varried shops and restraunts, the more irish consumers are interested in spending money and enjoy life better. the more multiculture the better. i like to learn.
i do agree we should have some control over immigration. should be restricted to e.u. countries. and people coming over that are conected to a university or referanced from a school. or people tht have made an agreement with a company in ireland to work for them, under our labour law, of course.
the biggest downside to immigrants is the eventual dilution of our culture if immigrants chose to stay here. my solution o this is to produce more irish people. i for one are up for some baby making.;)0 -
b2cmac wrote:An Irish Times poll Last year showed a massive 78% of people backed ideas to introduce a work permit system.
A work permit system for who? It would seem the majority of immigrants being complained about are simply availing of the freedom of movement intra-EU that they are entitled to by law.
There can be no permit system for such people.http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/0123/3166143057HM1MAINPOLL.html
Xavier McAuliffe, the Spectra Photo founder, whose personal wealth is estimated at €60 million, said that unchecked immigration has the potential to create serious social problems in Ireland in the future
http://wicklowhills.blogspot.com/2006/06/sense-on-immigration.html
Wel, if one rich man agrees with you, you must be right. I dunno what everyone else is thinking.0 -
From reading this thread, it still seems to me that people are talking about "immigrants", but they're still meaning any combination of immigrants and refugees. The reason I bring this up is because they are two very distinct groups of people, both coming here under different pieces of legislation. Also, politically (and probably legally), it would be much easier to impose restrictions on immigrants, rather than refugees/asylum seekers.
It seems to me that this first becaame a huge issue when large amount of Africans arrived here. However, does anybody know which ethnic group is the largest in Ireland? Also, how many immigrants do we have Vs the number of asylum seekers Vs those who have already been granted asylum? I don't know the answers, but think these are important questions in htis debate.
I think like many people, I am opposed to a liberal policy on asylum, but tighter control on immigration. I have to say that when I return home to Ireland (I work in the UK) it's heartbreaking to see how racist some people have become here. Having said that, it's pretty much the same in the UK at the moment.
Kind regards0 -
Wicknight wrote:Firstly that assumes that all Muslims who come here want an Islamic state. Which is nonsense.
How is it nonsense?
A great many countries with Muslim majorities have Islamic values enshrined in their constitutions with their populations abiding by it hence those that immigrate here need to integrate and not impose their values on our society.
The nearest country to the EU like this is Turkey where a huge portion of the 70m population vote for Islamic values parties.
If Turkey joins, expect a wave of immigration from them. Many will stay, get residency, become citizens, not integrate and then by numbers a scenario of a Muslim majority can occur as we have a small population.
This may sound scaremongering and daydreaming, but whats there to stop it happening in the future when Turkey joins the EU nevermind open the doors to other like minded countries?
Well, a recent poll (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743702&issue_id=15023) highlighted a significant portion(57%) of young Muslims living here wish to see an Islamic state here, thankfully they are in a minority of their community and hopefully their views will fade out in future years.Wicknight wrote:Secondly you need a 2/3 majority to change the constitution, and only Irish citizens can vote in constitutional referendums. Which means, based on current population figures, you would need 8 million Muslims citizens who actually want to change the constitution to an Islamic state.
Basing current opinions of immigration on such a ridiculously unlikely situation is simply daft. It is pointless scaremongering. It also feeds the idea that Muslims are all coming here to change Ireland into an Islamic state, which leads to distrust and religious bigotry towards Muslims. How does that help intergration.
Even if there were 8 million who were needed to vote(thought it was over 50%), whats to stop them if they have the numbers, would you abide by their values when the constitution changes?
I'm talking about the EU 13 who put 7 year restrictions on immigration from teh new EU 10 in 2004. A bad economy in some of those countries doesn't wash as an excuse to implement the barriers as some of their economies were also in good shape.Wicknight wrote:They were. A number of groups have launched legal challenges in the UK and Europe over the restrictions placed on Romania and Bulgaria.
They had reasons for doing so whatever they are, where was the pro-immigrant lobby screaming the racist card?
Why not, have they respect for their host countries?Wicknight wrote:These are EU workers you are talking about. Most probably don't care too much about long term integration.
They should integrate just like Irish did in UK/USA/Australia over the centuries.
So the Irish are 'using' these countries for jobs, they should integrate into those countries for long term stays just like our own immigrants here should do.Wicknight wrote:None of my Irish friends living in Europe give two hoots about interegration with these countries, beyond learning to say "How much is that pint" and "Do you want to come home with me" (that is a different kind of intergration). They all plan to come back to Ireland within the next 3-5 years.
Thats scary as a big portion are working in the black economy being employed by unscrupolous employers.Wicknight wrote:No, not unless you apply to work in a job that requires a background check.
Thats because we are coming back, we are hoildaymakers.Wicknight wrote:You may notice you are not background checked when you go to Paris for the weekend, or fly to Scotland to go skiing for a fortnight.
Different story for long term residents who want to become citizens of the host countries0 -
Well, to quote yourself:gurramok wrote:
How is it nonsense?Wicknight wrote:Firstly that assumes that all Muslims who come here want an Islamic state. Which is nonsense.
Given that 43% of young Muslims therefore don't want to see an Islamic state here, how is it not nonsense to assume that all Muslims want an Islamic state?gurramok wrote:Well, a recent poll (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743702&issue_id=15023) highlighted a significant portion(57%) of young Muslims living here wish to see an Islamic state here...0 -
i would consider the increase of support for socialism more worrying than the increase of islamic supporters. i would vote for islamic values over crazy radical liberal views any day.
islam and christianity, two different sequels to the same boring movie.0 -
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By the way, b2cmac, any chance of answering the question I've asked you twice now?0
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oscarBravo wrote:By the way, b2cmac, any chance of answering the question I've asked you twice now?
Nobody said all the muslims here want an Islamic state. They just said the majority here today want it. And they are right, that's what they know and works for them. It's (religion) is the NUMBER one thing in their life.
It's part of their culture. If you went to work in Saudi, would you convert to Islam? Do you think they should expect you to?
I just want to know is that what you want, or don't want, or you just don't care?
Right now we don't have big problems with Immigration.
I did notice 2 of my (female - lucky me) swedish friends are quite concerned that they are allowing Bulgaria and Romanina unrestricted access. I guess they are crazy, right oscarbravo???0 -
oscarBravo wrote:Well, to quote yourself: Given that 43% of young Muslims therefore don't want to see an Islamic state here, how is it not nonsense to assume that all Muslims want an Islamic state?
In my post, i stated that the majority of Muslim countries abide by Islamic law and certainly is the case in the numbers sense worldwide.(Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/Indonesia/Saudi/Sudan/Afghanistan to name the big ones)
Established Muslim communities here came from non-Islamic(majority Muslim, moderate) societies long time ago which were more tolerant of others before violent and non-violent Islamic revolutions took hold in their original countries hence bringing their tolerant values here.
Younger ones come from more Islamic based societies nowadays with post Islamic revolutions hence there would be a natural increase in non-tolerant believers residing here in the future.
Britain has a host threat of fundamentalist Islamism from a significant portion of their Muslim population, I believe that integration is the best way to prevent us going down the same route.0 -
gurramok wrote:Britain has a host threat of fundamentalist Islamism from a significant portion of their Muslim population, I believe that integration is the best way to prevent us going down the same route.
britians threat from islamic fundamentalism comes from the same thing as the threat of irish nationalism. britians angers people all around the world, some of those react violently.
britian is a barbaric, waring nation. they will always be under attack from terrorists until they stop being selfish.
note, back in the day when the IRA were cool, many actually worked in london. micheal collins worked as a clerk.0 -
On the contrary, the article linked to says that 37% of Muslims would like Ireland to be governed as an Islamic state. That's not a majority. Even if it was a majority, it's a majority of a small minority. It's simply not an issue.Tea drinker wrote:Nobody said all the muslims here want an Islamic state. They just said the majority here today want it.
No.Tea drinker wrote:If you went to work in Saudi, would you convert to Islam?
No. What's your point?Tea drinker wrote:Do you think they should expect you to?
I want people who have a problem with immigrants to explain why.Tea drinker wrote:I just want to know is that what you want, or don't want, or you just don't care?
I don't know, I'm not qualified to discuss the problems immigration might or might not cause in Sweden.Tea drinker wrote:I guess they are crazy, right oscarbravo???0 -
I'd cautiously agree, given that I'm not sure what you mean by "integration", but I'm still unclear why you believe all Muslims want an Islamic state, particularly when a majority (per the previously linked article) have said that they don't.gurramok wrote:Britain has a host threat of fundamentalist Islamism from a significant portion of their Muslim population, I believe that integration is the best way to prevent us going down the same route.0 -
Originally Posted by oscarBravo
What percentage of immigration to Ireland is made up of combined Pakistanis, Indians, Carribeans, Somalis and Kurds? How does this compare to the UK?
Im sorry Oscarbravo but I can only find statistics from 2002.
The 2006 census dosent seem to be on line as yet.
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/personsclassbyplaceofbirth2002.htm
However according to professor Prof Ferdinand von Prondzynski.
Irish natives could be minority ethnic group here by 2050 -Irish could be minority ethnic group here by 2050 - professor
Ireland's native population could be in a minority by the middle of this century, the president of Dublin City University (DCU) will claim today. But large-scale immigration is still essential if we are to remain prosperous, Prof Ferdinand von Prondzynski will say.
He predicts a multicultural and multi ethnic society in which we will form an indigenous minority.0 -
oscarbravo, my point is we can all want different things culture religion porn - WHATEVER but to a certain extent we have to give and take. We don't want to convert, muslims don't want to convert, aetheist want? and that is fine for all, why should anyone change? Unless they are forced to..oscarBravo wrote:On the contrary, the article linked to says that 37% of Muslims would like Ireland to be governed as an Islamic state. That's not a majority. Even if it was a majority, it's a majority of a small minority. It's simply not an issue. No. No. What's your point? I want people who have a problem with immigrants to explain why. I don't know, I'm not qualified to discuss the problems immigration might or might not cause in Sweden.
Poorly managed immigration and integration leads to unrest in any community. my previous point about inadequate infra leads to them/us and Even now we have "good" and "bad" areas, unrelated to foregners but what if we have really poor integration.
The open door policy or I don't give a hoot policy on immigration will not work for anyone. We have to care who comes to Ireland and what their intentions are.
Imagine if the 47A was full of bolts. The nuts couldn't get on and immediately started hating the bolts. Not enough houses could lead to competition between foreign and domestic purchasers... too many foregners on the dole/disability/cars paid for/ apartments paid for will sow more angst. How many foregners is too many, how many on the dole is too much? Was the fact that holles st. was overrun with medical tourists a problem? Poor policies or management of foreign nationals will upset the man on the street, and a rift will form. And who is guilty? the man on the street? The immigrant? Or was it a policy failure? I'm just saying we need sustainable policies, and the infrastructure - housing, education, hospitals transport places of worship, pubs etc. to cater for an influx. And the influx has to pay their way to provide this.
An open door is a recipe for disaster.0 -
Dontico wrote:britians threat from islamic fundamentalism comes from the same thing as the threat of irish nationalism. britians angers people all around the world, some of those react violently.
britian is a barbaric, waring nation. they will always be under attack from terrorists until they stop being selfish.
note, back in the day when the IRA were cool, many actually worked in london. micheal collins worked as a clerk.
Yeah, they interfere big time. but it was the colonial ploicies that sowed the seeds of the hate today. They should not have been robbing those countries of natural resources for centuries. World War 2 caused the re-drawing of many borders that today are still a huge cause of anger and loss of life. I think the catalyst for the reaction is the foreign policy. This relationship with US is very damaging to UK image abroad.
I think the 1st generation immigrants in UK were happy enough, now their kids are very unhappy. Why? It's not all Foregn policy problem.0 -
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I'd strongly suggest reading even the first ten pages of any secondary school macroeconomics text. If, after that, you still consider the above to be a valid argument, go back and read it again. Please pay careful attention to what inflation is, what it is a measure of and how it is calculated. Scan the text for usage of the words "inflation" and "increases in living costs", especially when both phrases are in the same clause of the same sentence. I'm going to assume the argument on an inflation basis is over, mostly because it is.b2cmac wrote:Inflation is kept down on low wages.
Low wages is bad for people and families as it dosent help with paying morgages,
or Increase`s in living costs and standards.0
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