Immigration- A Proper Debate

oscarBravo

b2cmac wrote:

Im sorry Oscarbravo but I can only find statistics from 2002.
The 2006 census dosent seem to be on line as yet.

You've claimed that the UK is similar enough to be used as a predictor for social problems that may be caused by immigration in Ireland. According to the CSO statistics you linked, Indians and Pakistanis account for 0.1% of the population each. Do you suppose that's similar to the UK?

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote:

I'd cautiously agree, given that I'm not sure what you mean by "integration", but I'm still unclear why you believe all Muslims want an Islamic state, particularly when a majority (per the previously linked article) have said that they don't.

As per my previous post, 57% of young Muslims wish an Islamic state here under Sharia law, they are the future and that % will increase as older generations die out and more like minded immigrants come from Islamic societies.
Considering there are only 40,000 of that religion resident here, it does not affect present voting strength.
However, on future patterns, the rise of Islamic roles in Muslim societies worldwide will bring their influences here under the guise of a rise in immigration of that religion.
If huge numbers do come here, its better to integrate them rather than isolate them to stamp out an idea than Ireland will be an Islamic state one day when numbers through immigration dictate.

oscarBravo

gurramok wrote:

If huge numbers do come here...

Where are "huge numbers" going to come from? There are no Muslim countries in the EU. Even if Turkey joined, and the same number of Turks came here as Poles have, they'd account for a tiny fraction of the population.

Hobbes

b2cmac wrote:

However according to professor Prof Ferdinand von Prondzynski.
Irish natives could be minority ethnic group here by 2050 -

You made the accusation, did you actually bother to read his report? or just the news sound bite.

I'm guessing you didn't. If you did please point us to the actual report. Because I am unable to actually find the report.

walrusgumble

b2cmac wrote:

A report in the times today also states how immigrants coming here who cant get jobs are being sent back home by the state.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0115/1168815013049.html

Surely controlled immigration would prevent this and be of better benefit to the irish tax payer and the immigrant who becomes homeless!

that is in the pipe line, the immigration and residene bill 2006. i think, it proposes to allow some asylum seekers or immigrants who are waiting nearly 1 year from the dosey dept of justice to get their act together (administrative level) t deal with with their applications for visa's/long term residence etc. what is hurting the tax payer is the amount of social welfare given (be fair they cant live on bread and water, by the way the welfare is not as big as many would suggest) (social welfare ie paying for accommodation for hostels like mosney)some of these people are in legal limbo due to no fault of their own, maybe they should be allowed to work whilst in ireland and try and provide for themselves.

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote:

Where are "huge numbers" going to come from? There are no Muslim countries in the EU. Even if Turkey joined, and the same number of Turks came here as Poles have, they'd account for a tiny fraction of the population.

The Irish and UK govts said the same thing regarding immigration before Nice, 'small numbers' arriving, how that turned out on its head.
How would you know a tiny fraction would come here?..the same thing was said about Eastern European immigrants before '04 hence proves it wrong.

Turkey is indeed a good source for potential immigration not just to Ireland but all over Europe, over 2.6m in Germany(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany) alone and thats with hard to get work permits down through the years.
If Turkey with a pop. of 73m does join the EU, alot of poorer workers than the Poles will seek a better future like the Poles did and immigrate to the countries that allow them in freely without restriction like Uk/IRL/Swe did in '04.

Only way to make sure a tiny fraction arrive is to restrict it like the old EU 12 did in '04 for the new EU 10 with 7 year restriction.

Would you tolerate with the céad mile fáilte a couple of million arriving here with an open border, would you have a limit like i would espouse?

walrusgumble

Fratton Fred wrote:

Guide To Being Irish:

• Drive a German car
• Visit an Irish pub for a German beer
• On the way home purchase either fish and chips, an Indian curry, a Turkish kebab, or a Chinese takeaway
• Eat said food while sitting on a Swedish sofa while watching American programmes on a Japanese television
• Be suspicious of all things foreign

Oh yes and don't forget, go and seek jobs around the world and complain when some of them follow you back. :rolleyes:

i find it mind bogingly hilarious and hypocritical of the irish to winge, how many of you know some one, be it your neighbour,friend or family member, who is in the US right now, working on the construction site or pubs on the sly, does US immigration know that they have out stayed ther period on their visa.

purple'n'gold

The manure will only hit the fan when the uneducated native Irish will find themselves without jobs. Then some right wing party will form to represent them. Foreigners, especially blacks will be the target. It’s happened in other countries and it will happen here too. And I only say especially blacks because they are obviously different.

walrusgumble

That isn't the reason refugee levels went down. No one from Poland or Romania could claim refugee status here anyway (you cannot claim refugee status unless you come from a country without a free functioning police force that can protect you from what ever you are fleeing). The refugee levels went down because the government made it harder to qualify as a refugee in Ireland. end of qoute

here here. the Refugee appliations commissioner and the appeal board were very very clear cut on who fell under the 1951 geneva convention's defintion of refugee. one important ommision or dispute of of evidene from the appeal and rac stage could have made an applicant's case implausible and found for lack of crediability, thus dismiss an applicant's claim for refugee status.

it's interpretation was applied very strictly. incidently the no of applications from poland and romaina combined where almost nowhere near the applications of people from a certain african country.

anyway,sorry if anyone is getting confused with asylum/immigration. as pointed out several times, both are different, just late on responding to a few comments, so move along people, nothing to see here

Tea drinker

purplengold wrote:

The manure will only hit the fan when the uneducated native Irish will find themselves without jobs. Then some right wing party will form to represent them. Foreigners, especially blacks will be the target. It’s happened in other countries and it will happen here too. And I only say especially blacks because they are obviously different.

Yes, it's when things take a downturn, as some expect, that a more aggressive attitude could manifest. As you suggest political representation of this will further exacerbate the problem.
Actually, in some areas immigrants are being blamed (rightly) for loss of work. The case I am talking about is in monaghan where factory workers are replaced by lower cost workers. As long as the paddies can find alternate work that's ok, in fact that's great as we have more people paying tax. BUT What happens if they can't get work? And after that the dole is too small to sustain them, then what?
I know one coloured guy (french national) who says he always gets hassle going for a pint with his girlfriend. What are you doing here go home etc.
Not a good sign this early in the game.

purple'n'gold

I know one coloured guy (french national) who says he always gets hassle going for a pint with his girlfriend. What are you doing here go home etc.
Not a good sign this early in the game.[/QUOTE]

it's a terrible sign, because at the moment he is only getting hassle out of pure bog ignorance. The real hassle will come when he has a job and some of the local characters don't.

oscarBravo

purplengold wrote:

it's a terrible sign, because at the moment he is only getting hassle out of pure bog ignorance. The real hassle will come when he has a job and some of the local characters don't.

What, then it won't be pure bog ignorance? It'll be justifiable hassle?

purple'n'gold

oscarBravo wrote:

What, then it won't be pure bog ignorance? It'll be justifiable hassle?

not to me it won't, but the dangerous part is, it will be to the character who lost his job.

Tea drinker

oscarBravo wrote:

What, then it won't be pure bog ignorance? It'll be justifiable hassle?

Why do you insist on using the worst possible interpretation of what people say? It's perfectly clear to me the mans intent is to point out possible hardships and he seems to emphatise with the victim.

You seem fairly quick to jump to conclusions and blame people. That's the sort of attitude we are talking about actually.
Stop acting like the bad cop all the time, lets have some good cop.

oscarBravo

I just asked a question.

It seems to me that curbs on immigration are being proposed in order to prevent ignorant gombeens racially abusing people in pubs - if we don't let them into the country, the idiots won't be able to shout abuse at them. That's not my idea of empathising with the victim.

purple'n'gold

oscarBravo wrote:

I just asked a question.

It seems to me that curbs on immigration are being proposed in order to prevent ignorant gombeens racially abusing people in pubs - if we don't let them into the country, the idiots won't be able to shout abuse at them. That's not my idea of empathising with the victim.

We will always have ignorant gob****es abusing people in pubs, racially and otherwise. But that’s not a good reason to stop a French citizen from living and working here just because he happens to be black.

oscarBravo

purplengold wrote:

We will always have ignorant gob****es abusing people in pubs, racially and otherwise. But that’s not a good reason to stop a French citizen from living and working here just because he happens to be black.

I couldn't agree more.

Hobbes

Look the reason these threads get closed before is.

1. The thread goes in circles, people make accusations but never back up any of the accusations with actual facts. I mean I've asked a couple of questions looking for actual reference material people are quoting and I am seeing nothing but stories with no quotes to sources.

2. Another trick in these threads (Granted it used to be more by stormfronters) is to argue about the person and not the argument, or to argue on being name called. Proof previous Tea drinkers post. If you think someone is wrong you explain why, you don't go on about how they are always doing X.

It detracts from the thread.

Anyway this thread is going in circles. Unless you want to continue to sound like your rambling please back up with references. Yous seem quick to post news stories but none of you have yet to research the material behind those stories.

Here are some unanswered questions so far.
"Irish natives could be minority ethnic group here by 2050" - Where is the report?

"As per my previous post, 57% of young Muslims wish an Islamic state here under Sharia law" - Says who exactly? (ignoring for the fact that Sharia law is in the UK and Ireland already).

"I still say it's in our own interests to maintain Ireland as a Christian country" - WHY?

"I think there is nothing wrong with curtailing immigration to maintain our national stability, avoid overuse of infrastructure, overcrowding, unsustainable growth and to preserve our cultural and religous heritage." - How about some proof this is actually happening rather then pulling comments out of your backside?

Rather then comments like "Many reports" or "Well known fact" point people to those facts.

If anything your supposed to be following the charter when it comes to backing up your statements. :mad:

gandalf

Well Hobbes b2cmac will not be replying, neither will the other multiple accounts he has had before as he has been banned again.

This thread however will stay open as long as people back up any claims they make. News articles are good but be prepared for people to debate them and to find the data that backs them up if necessary.

Also I feel its important to ensure you clarify what you are talking about. Is it EU immigrants, is it Assylum seekers, Economic migrants from outside the EU. Throwing them all into labels really doesn't help the discussion.

And again I do not want to see any "my mate down the pub" type posts or any other such "taxi driver" posts. Persistant posts of this type will result in a banning.

Tea drinker

OK, cool.
What to do about abuse in pubs? No idea. In Vino Veritas is the worry.
Some people have a tendency to abuse people in a less powerful position.
With immigrants this could be racial taunts, sneers, abuse in the workplace, ranging up to assaults etc.
None of us are without fault of some kind (see my previous posts) and TBH it's a constant struggle to try and expand my primitive clan brain.
I have no concrete plan for immigration going forward. - Do you? Honest question.

I have a vested interest in a sustainable plan, I married a girl from Former Yugoslavia. I have a little taste of what can go wrong. See Former.
That's why I am emphasising slow / cautious approach. Any reason to hurry?

Wife works harder than almost anyone I know, and is more honest. A better example for pro immigration is hard to find.

BlitzKrieg

In my post, i stated that the majority of Muslim countries abide by Islamic law and certainly is the case in the numbers sense worldwide.(Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/Indonesia/Saudi/Sudan/Afghanistan to name the big ones)

Could that be because these modern states were founded by Muslims, its the same as when the Republic of Ireland was created the Catholic Church influenced law and education.

There is no evidence that a state that was founded primarily by one religous group can have its constitution changed over in favour of another religion by immigration alone?

The closest it will ever be is the legal system allowing freedom of religion as much as possible. Such as it is in Britain, USA, and most other democracies with large multicultural societies.



On the overall topic, can I ask is this a debate over the Immigration from within the EU or from outside the EU? becuase the arguments are being very inconsistent about which aspect are in need of review. Saying all of it is very niave due to the vast differences between the two processess and effects.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

"Irish natives could be minority ethnic group here by 2050" - Where is the report?

You know this really set off a BS alarm when I read it. The main reason is people keep quoting a news story that originated on eircom website (which they later retracted), but is still doing its rounds on the net.

Basically it isn't true. Or rather it is not as true as it would have you believe. Like the stories it is based on speculation.

The storys are based on this blog entry.
http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/001047.html

Which yep! you guessed it doesn't even reference or mention the material the assumption is made off (and comment to get the material has no reply).

Even without the material it is clear from the blog entry that this is pure speculation based on the premise that the population of Ireland will be 20 million by 2050. That's a x5 increase in the population in Ireland in under 50 years.

I don't recall Ireland ever growing that large and it certainly doesn't even have remotely the infrastructure as of yet to sustain that many people.

The key sentance being "it has been suggested that by the year 2050 Ireland could have a population of 20 million".

Funny enough I also found a very similar story only to do with the UK and 2100 timeframe. And!! Drumroll, you guessed it no source to the data quoted.

So until someone actually points to the physical data and how it came to that conclusion I call BS on that one.

[edit2]
Confirmed its the same person. Still no data as of yet.

Zombrex

gurramok wrote:

How is it nonsense?

Its nonsense because most Muslims don't want Ireland to become an Islamic state. According to an Irish Independent survey in December only 37% of Irish Muslims or Muslims living in Ireland wish that Ireland could become an Islamic state. I see you quote this survey but choose to only focus on the wishes of young Muslims, ignoring that fact that they do not represent the majority.

gurramok wrote:

The nearest country to the EU like this is Turkey where a huge portion of the 70m population vote for Islamic values parties.

Turkey is a secular state, who's secular nature is enshrined in its constitution, just like us. If the Muslims in Turkey have not voted in an Islamic state over there why are we worrying about them flooding into Ireland to all some how become citizens and vote Ireland into an Islamic state.

I would have HUGE objections to anyone trying to turn Ireland into a religious state, Muslim Christian or otherwise. But why in Gods name (pardon the pun) are we worrying about this, or using this as a reason why immigration is really bad. Do you have any idea how many Muslims would have to come to Ireland for this to happen. Where would they live? Where would they work. We don't have the economy nor the space to support them. Why would they come here? Just to vote us into an Islamic state?

This is just ridiculous scaremongering. Wake me up in 2206 when this might seriously be a possibility. Until then can we leave out the "Muslims under the bed" nonsense.

gurramok wrote:

This may sound scaremongering and daydreaming, but whats there to stop it happening in the future when Turkey joins the EU nevermind open the doors to other like minded countries?

EU citizens from other EU countries cannot vote in our constitutional referendums.

You make it sound like 8 million Turkish Muslims will just pop over for the weekend and vote us into an Islamic state next week :rolleyes:

gurramok wrote:

Even if there were 8 million who were needed to vote(thought it was over 50%), whats to stop them if they have the numbers, would you abide by their values when the constitution changes?

Yes, but then I probably wouldn't care because by the time there are 2/3 majority of Muslim citizens in Ireland it will probably be something like 2206 and I will be dead.

gurramok wrote:

I'm talking about the EU 13 who put 7 year restrictions on immigration from teh new EU 10 in 2004. A bad economy in some of those countries doesn't wash as an excuse to implement the barriers as some of their economies were also in good shape.

The reasons these restrictions were put in place was immigration is a touchy issue and none of the governments wish to seem easy on immigration. And despite your repeated claims to the opposite, the "pro-immigration lobby" (I assume you mean liberals) were screaming bloody murder up and down Europe over it.

gurramok wrote:

Why not, have they respect for their host countries?

No, they don't plan to live here that long.

gurramok wrote:

So the Irish are 'using' these countries for jobs, they should integrate into those countries for long term stays just like our own immigrants here should do.

Yeah, I'll mention that to my mates. I'm sure they will jump at the idea... :rolleyes:

gurramok wrote:

Thats scary as a big portion are working in the black economy being employed by unscrupolous employers.

A "big portion" of what are working in the black economy? Romanians?

gurramok wrote:

Thats because we are coming back, we are hoildaymakers.

So you won't be commiting any crimes while on holiday. Well I'm sure if you just explain that to the French authorities they will have no problem. "If I lived here I might rob a bank, but sure I'm only over here for a week or two, so probably won't bother" ... :rolleyes:

gurramok wrote:

Different story for long term residents who want to become citizens of the host countries

So at what point do you start the background check :rolleyes: After you have been in Paris for a week? A month? 2 months?

sceptre

Interesting link Hobbes given the number of times that's been referenced here in recent months as a serious study with serious conclusions and implications.

the Ferdinand von Prondzynski blog entry linked to by Hobbes wrote:

If the trends on which this analysis is based continue...

If present trends continue, the Sugababes will be entirely caucasian by 2013. Time will tell if this is a good thing.

wes

Wicknight wrote:

Turkey is a secular state, who's secular nature is enshrined in its constitution, just like us. If the Muslims in Turkey have not voted in an Islamic state over there why are we worrying about them flooding into Ireland to all some how become citizens and vote Ireland into an Islamic state.

Thankfully you mentioned that Turkey is a secular state. Also most Turks aren't all that interested in an Islamic state. They even ban the Hijab in any Government buildings. Hell the Turks secularism might rub off on other Muslims in Europe which would be a good thing.

walrusgumble

i find it difficult that ireland would loose it's identity in years to come (whatever it is).my reasons are from top of my head so sorry if i have no proof.

first, if an immigrant sends their young n5 yr old child to a regular school (i notice there are schools for muslims, basicaly there are schools for children depending on their religion) wont they be required to learn irish like the rest of the irish children?

some will wish to become irish citizens. now that takes about 5 years of legal residence in the state, and that is some commitment. won't they vote for govenments and referendums on the same reaons as we do, ie for a better country

would an immigrant's grandchild or great grandchild who was born and reared in ireland want to consider themselves as irish as the next man?, someone who wishes the best for their country. does paul mcgrath see himself anything other than irish. ok some of these people may want to see themselves as eg irsh/nigerian or irish/polish, maybe they might want to keep some of their families culture. so what let them, many irish people in america did, yet many now see themselves as an american.

i am sure there are many immigrants who want to come here and make a life for themselves with the same mind frame as the irish who went to the us 100's of years ago. given the oppurtunity and tolerance many will make to repay their gratiude to ireland and will wish to work. i might be naive in thinking this, and by all means ye can correct me, but if the country goes bust its that not business people's fault for staying competive with other countries or could it be caused by something like an economic slump in say oil where ireland kinda was just unlucky?it wont be just us irish out of a job, so would they.

Hotblack Desiato

Tea drinker wrote:

too many foregners on the dole/disability/cars paid for/ apartments paid for will sow more angst.

Cars paid for?
I can't believe that old chestnut slipped in again :rolleyes:

Tea drinker

wes wrote:

Thankfully you mentioned that Turkey is a secular state. Also most Turks aren't all that interested in an Islamic state. They even ban the Hijab in any Government buildings. Hell the Turks
secularism might rub off on other Muslims in Europe which would be a good thing.

Didn't they almost ban the pope's visit as well? Wasn't it a turk who attempted to assasinate the last pope?
Secular state sure.... appaling human rights record anyone?

walrusgrumble wrote:

first, if an immigrant sends their young n5 yr old child to a regular school (i notice there are schools for muslims, basicaly there are schools for children depending on their religion) wont they be required to learn irish like the rest of the irish children?

So straight away we have segragation. Muslim kids won't mix with ours. Isn't the the whole point that we integrate immigrants from any group?
Aren't we saying as a rule integration is good? (I'm not saying it should be a rule). How could theyidentify with Ireland in that case? How will they understand us? Isn't it going to be difficult for young guys who
potentially have no Irish pals, to get on, know the system, get the right jobs.
What is required of children and what happens can be very different. I have no idea if the Muslim schools teach Irish to the kids or not. In fact I don't care, as English will be of far more use to them, and they will already have to learn Arabic, and perhaps another foreign language.

walrusgrumble wrote:

but if the country goes bust its that not business people's fault for staying competive with other countries or
could it be caused by something like an economic slump in say oil where ireland kinda was just unlucky?it wont be just us irish out of a job, so would they

Yes, we live in a boom and bust cycle as I understand it. The problem is if the natives "feel" they have been done out of a job by a foreigner, it's still the foreigner that gets the blame? That's awful, but that's what CAN happen. It's not right, but it's already happening! And the economy is doing fine! I don't need a web page to back this up I'm telling you what people are saying to me!
Public opinion is more relevant here than articles by Dr. Jack Daniels or whoever.
Isn't public opinion the lynchpin of success for immigration?
I'm merely pointing out pitfalls.

Zombrex

Tea drinker wrote:

Didn't they almost ban the pope's visit as well? Wasn't it a turk who attempted to assasinate the last pope?
Secular state sure.... appaling human rights record anyone?

So ... is that you conceding that Turkey is a secular state then.

Tea drinker wrote:

I have no idea if the Muslim schools teach Irish to the kids or not.

I'd imagine they would have to, since Irish is part of the national curriculum

Tea drinker wrote:

Public opinion is more relevant here than articles by Dr. Jack Daniels or whoever.

You don't know what "public opinion" is.

You know what the 10 or so people who are anti-immigration that you have talked to are saying. You could ask another 10 people who have no trouble with it. If you based "public opinion" on what the majority of Boards.ie Politics forum posters appear to be saying then the majority of the public are fine about immigration.

BlitzKrieg

I'd imagine they would have to, since Irish is part of the national curriculum

your exempt from irish if you did not do the irish curriculum in primary school I think.

I know in St. Columba's college none of the international students studied Irish and the above was the reason given to me when I inquired. But that was many years ago.

But they did have to do Irish culture studies for the first 3 years.