Immigration- A Proper Debate

Zambia

Sleepy wrote:

Of course, I think the majority of people are too greedy, too stupid and generally just such ****tards that we'll never do any of this. Unfortunately, people will guard their own little self interests preferring to build a big metal needle on a street than allow a couple of refugees into their country to benefit from the same advantages that they've had handed to them.

Sleepy its been said by the pro-limitless immigration side that it is only natural for people to want to better there lot. This is true but in the same vein its only natural for someone to try and protect what they have.

You have a house I presume , I say to you now go and invite every homeless person into the house that you paid / pay for. As by your rational its only right that as you have something you should let every one who has less be sheltered by your labours. If you do this i commend you, but i did not work to achieve what little i have to give it to someone else thats why i vote for the non -cummunist option every time.

I firmly believe someday your thinking will be the norm , but not yet or for some time if we get there. Oh and I dont see the need for the needle.

RedPlanet

Zambia232 wrote:

Hi borders will be beefed up in the sense that lorries will be searched throughly, Brief immigration checks will be made on all flights, etc. If you enter the country as a tourist you have a tourist visa. If you require one. These people will not be hindered , if you arrive at a port and declare you have no visa you will be turned around. if you had a tourist visa then overstay you will be on record as where you arrived from and returned there. In a way this system in already in place in ireland. There is a manpower issue in doing it.

Well i for one, am not interested in seeing more public monies being spent policing people entering the country just because some people don't like the fact that we are experiencing an influx of immigrants. It's a waste of resources and creates more beuracacy.
What you need to do, is win the hearts and minds of those business owners that are hiring them.
Why not propose creating a couple new laws governing the hiring of foreign staff, then perform a few (rather public) audits of bussinesses suspected of not following the rules. Sort of like the bringing in of Penalty Point system.

oscarBravo

Zambia232 wrote:

They where Romanian dont even try and debate that with me.

That dawg don't hunt. If you're certain they were Romanian, explain how you knew that, otherwise we're into hearsay territory.

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

That dawg don't hunt. If you're certain they were Romanian, explain how you knew that, otherwise we're into hearsay territory.

We caught one and handed him over to the Gardai who where nice enough to tell me.

sovtek

Sleepy wrote:

Of course, I think the majority of people are too greedy, too stupid and generally just such ****tards that we'll never do any of this. Unfortunately, people will guard their own little self interests preferring to build a big metal needle on a street than allow a couple of refugees into their country to benefit from the same advantages that they've had handed to them.

I disagree. I believe the theory that people do what's good for themselves as what is good for society. It makes perfect sense and benefits everyone.
However the relative few people that run this world think that way and play all of us off each other for their benefit.
It's a centuries old tactic.

Zambia

RedPlanet wrote:

Well i for one, am not interested in seeing more public monies being spent policing people entering the country just because some people don't like the fact that we are experiencing an influx of immigrants.

Agreed i will try and make it as cost efficent as possible

Zombrex

Zambia232 wrote:

I dont want is a non - skilled person in Turkey(just an example) thinking they have a great future in Ireland only to get here and there be no work for him.

Firstly I'm assuming this is after Turkey join the EU, if they ever do.

Secondly why exactly do you not want this? What happens if he does do that, aside from him turning around and going some where else.

Zambia232 wrote:

Sept 2005 I was attacked by three romanians at a AIB Banklink in Dublin over a skimming device. can anyone tell me what vissa they where in the state under cause I cant.

Would you have been happier if these 3 Romanians had come to work in Ireland legally under a points scheme and were skilled computer technicians?

Zambia232 wrote:

Should anyone who engages in such activities be as a guest of the state then they should be removed, i personnally couldnt care if they had a vat of boiling oil with there name on it back in their country of orgin.

I'm not sure why Zambia. The most likely outcomes of deporting them are that they either get off scot free when they got home, or they get horrific unjust punishment. Neither of those are acceptable outcomes.

If a Romanian robbed me on O'Connell St I would want him to face trail in and Irish court and I would want him in an Irish jail I would not wish him executed but nor would I wish him to be set free but just in some other country. Neither of those are fit punishments.

Zambia232 wrote:

If they are here under some wish wash loophole then I dont see the piont you can lay on you ar*e in one part of the world as well as another.

"Wish wash loophole?" You mean the EU?

Hotblack Desiato

Sleepy wrote:

That wasn't my question.

No but you questioned our right to live in greater wealth in Ireland compared to the third world. If we can't eliminate inequality within Ireland where there are no borders to movement, how on earth is removing all borders to movement worldwide going to work?

Zambia

Wicknight wrote:

Firstly I'm assuming this is after Turkey join the EU, if they ever do.

Secondly why exactly do you not want this? What happens if he does do that, aside from him turning around and going some where else.

No the example could be from any state. if Turkey join the Eu then so be it he has the right to work here as you have the right to sell your gaff and start a bar in turkey on the profits.

and if he fails to qualify for here then where ha goes is his affair.

Wicknight wrote:

Would you have been happier if these 3 Romanians had come to work in Ireland legally under a points scheme and were skilled computer technicians?

Yes

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not sure why Zambia. The most likely outcomes of deporting them are that they either get off scot free when they got home, or they get horrific unjust punishment. Neither of those are acceptable outcomes.

If a Romanian robbed me on O'Connell St I would want him to face trail in and Irish court and I would want him in an Irish jail I would not wish him executed but nor would I wish him to be set free but just in some other country. Neither of those are fit punishments.

I would like to see them do time here and then get deported, sorry my framework should have mentioned that. As for fit punishments once again we are going to have to differ on that.

Wicknight wrote:

"Wish wash loophole?" You mean the EU?

Nope

RedPlanet

Could someone explain: why should we target the immigrants entering the country; opposed to targeting the businesses that hire them?

If you think about it, there's a finite number of businesses in ireland.
But there are huge numbers of people entering ireland, and those numbers can shrink or grow exponentially at the slightest whim.

Zambia

RedPlanet wrote:

Could someone explain: why should we target the immigrants entering the country; opposed to targeting the businesses that hire them?

If you think about it, there's a finite number of businesses in ireland.
But there are huge numbers of people entering ireland, and those numbers can shrink or grow exponentially at the slightest whim.

You are correct businesses that hire illegal immigrants should face penalities.

Dontico

Sleepy wrote:

Well, the way I see it is that the Earth is our collective house. As it stands, we have a small minority living in en-suite double bedrooms whilst the vast majority live in the coal shed.

We in the west have a collective responsibility to those in the second and third worlds whose resources we have consumed, whose countries we have destabilised. Sure England, Portugal, France et all colonised countries however that doesn't leave us blameless, we had no problems drinking coffee that had been harvested by children in the third world until very recently. We still seemingly have no problem wearing trainers produced in sweatshops in the third world.

We in the "first world" (Ireland, America, the UK etc.) owe our fellow human beings equality and yes, we're going to have to suffer to provide it to them.

ireland is like a club. those we think look didgey we should keep out, so the regulars have a better time.

no we dont haver a collective responsiblity to save the world. we are non-waring country, we dont owe anyone squat.

its not equality if have to work harder so they better and we get less. when africa stops going to war with itself, maybe i'll start caring. but until then, they should stop building bombs, shooting and raping people, and feded there own kids.

the only charities we should give money to is aids and canser research. that helps everyone fairly.

MrPudding

Dontico wrote:

i when africa stops going to war with itself, maybe i'll start caring. but until then, they should stop building bombs, shooting and raping people, and feded there own kids.

Yeah, that's right. Because everyone one knows it is the people coming over here to have a crack at a better life or perhaps to prevent there young daughter getting her clitoris hacked off that are starting all the wars in Africa.:rolleyes:

MrP

Dontico

MrPudding wrote:

[/INDENT]
Yeah, that's right. Because everyone one knows it is the people coming over here to have a crack at a better life or perhaps to prevent there young daughter getting her clitoris hacked off that are starting all the wars in Africa.:rolleyes:

MrP

its up to them to fix themselves not us. we could be involved in apolitical level, but not donate money. they should teach them selves. irish people shouldnt be forced into giving to charities thay dont want to. thats slave labour. i earn minimum wage. i chose every cent goes into what ever charity i chose. i give my spare change to those jars with the little sad on the front, i assume its an anti-child abuse charity. never read the label so far.

tallaght01

Dontico wrote:

its up to them to fix themselves not us. we could be involved in apolitical level, but not donate money. they should teach them selves.

Wot does this even mean? is this a real post?? I thought mine were good piss-takes

Dontico

dont see how its confusing.
i think we can point them in the right direction but the irish govs main priority should irish problems and european problems. all our resources should be pointed at fixing them.

brianthebard

Dontico wrote:

its up to them to fix themselves not us. we could be involved in apolitical level, but not donate money. they should teach them selves. irish people shouldnt be forced into giving to charities thay dont want to. thats slave labour. i earn minimum wage. i chose every cent goes into what ever charity i chose. i give my spare change to those jars with the little sad on the front, i assume its an anti-child abuse charity. never read the label so far.

How do you propose they fix themselves? When this country lost its colony status it was a hard slog to "fix it" until the ECC started giving us money. Where do you think Ireland would be now if Germans and French people decided that we should fix ourselves? And we aren't forced to give to charities, and even if we were, I think you'll find that's not actually slave labour. The poster above you might be right, your post does seem like a piss take, and a bad one at that.

tallaght01

Dontico wrote:

dont see how its confusing.
i think we can point them in the right direction but the irish govs main priority should irish problems and european problems. all our resources should be pointed at fixing them.

Yea, that's right Dontico. Why should my hard earned money go towards helping victims of torture, gang rape, village burnings and internal displacement in Dharfur.

I say to the govt.....put my money towards solving European issues, such as funding for Irish language interpreters in the European parliamentand, fighting the MRSA and the other immediately pressing problems affecting me and me fellow Europeans.

lol

Victor

Zambia232 wrote:

We caught one and handed him over to the Gardai who where nice enough to tell me.

You mean the same gardai who can't tell the difference between Spanish shoplifter and Spanish Garda Interpreter or between Portugese and Brazilian or between Romanian and Roma?

Off topic, but

Dontico wrote:

...no we dont haver a collective responsiblity to save the world. we are non-waring country, we dont owe anyone squat. its not equality if have to work harder so they better and we get less. when africa stops going to war with itself, maybe i'll start caring. but until then, they should stop building bombs, shooting and raping people, and feded there own kids. ...

Where are the bombs made? Where do the aircraft parts come from? Who dumps food on their economies, destroying local production?

dent

Victor wrote:

Off topic, but Where are the bombs made? Where do the aircraft parts come from? Who dumps food on their economies, destroying local production?

In fairness there not made in Ireland

Victor

So Irish beef and dairy produce isn't dumped on international markets?

Intel don't make computer chips for missiles?

And Moog don't do aircraft and missile parts?

Sleepy

ninja900 wrote:

No but you questioned our right to live in greater wealth in Ireland compared to the third world. If we can't eliminate inequality within Ireland where there are no borders to movement, how on earth is removing all borders to movement worldwide going to work?

Inequality will always exist due to people's different aspirations and parenting. We cannot undo the job of a bad parent with a 'perfect' education system, any attempt to remove children from unfit parents would no doubt lead to a cry of totalitarianism. Our population are too stupid/undeducated to elect a decent government who'd provide a better education but even at that we've a relatively level starting point. There are countless users on this board who'll tell you they're from crap areas and have worked their way out of them. It may be harder for those of us who aren't born with a silver spoon in our mouths but as citizens of Ireland, we can succeed in Ireland.

dent

Victor wrote:

So Irish beef and dairy produce isn't dumped on international markets?

Intel don't make computer chips for missiles?

And Moog don't do aircraft and missile parts?

As its not up to me to prove you wrong, links please?

Zambia

Victor wrote:

You mean the same gardai who can't tell the difference between Spanish shoplifter and Spanish Garda Interpreter or between Portugese and Brazilian or between Romanian and Roma?

Yes I mean the same Garda , he had a Romanian passport , but sure that could be forged. He probably was from a small band of stormfront members based in finglas ,impersonating a band of Romanians in order to discredit the entire Romanian nation. :rolleyes:

Its a well documented fact there is a ring of Romanians doing this so I dont think its to far a strech to believe them on this one. Even if in this case the Gardai where wrong and he was from somewhere else. It does not corrupt the whole line of thinking portrayed earlier.

As for all the other comments maybe someone would like to start a "How should the west fix the third world and do we have to"

I wonder will anyone advocate bringing all of the third world here?

Sleepy

Dontico wrote:

ireland is like a club. those we think look didgey we should keep out, so the regulars have a better time.

no we dont haver a collective responsiblity to save the world. we are non-waring country, we dont owe anyone squat.

its not equality if have to work harder so they better and we get less. when africa stops going to war with itself, maybe i'll start caring. but until then, they should stop building bombs, shooting and raping people, and feded there own kids.

the only charities we should give money to is aids and canser research. that helps everyone fairly.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Educate yourself before forming opinions rather than doing it the otehr way around and come back to us then.

Zambia

Dontico wrote:

ireland is like a club. those we think look didgey we should keep out, so the regulars have a better time.

no we dont haver a collective responsiblity to save the world. we are non-waring country, we dont owe anyone squat.

its not equality if have to work harder so they better and we get less. when africa stops going to war with itself, maybe i'll start caring. but until then, they should stop building bombs, shooting and raping people, and feded there own kids.

the only charities we should give money to is aids and canser research. that helps everyone fairly.

Untill recently we where really one of the more waring regions in europe and we got loads??

Aids is predominantly in africa so most of your aids cash will go there. Rightfully so as we cant stamp it out in one country and expect it not to travel.

Dontico

brianthebard wrote:

How do you propose they fix themselves? When this country lost its colony status it was a hard slog to "fix it" until the ECC started giving us money. Where do you think Ireland would be now if Germans and French people decided that we should fix ourselves?

as i said, we should only be conserned with european problems. that includes our french and german comrades. we should only be loyal to them and not non-europeans. especially not the way our gov is helping the americans.

Zombrex

Dontico wrote:

as i said, we should only be conserned with european problems.

Why exactly?

Zambia

Dontico wrote:

as i said, we should only be conserned with european problems. that includes our french and german comrades. we should only be loyal to them and not non-europeans. especially not the way our gov is helping the americans.

You have lost me

purple'n'gold

All illegal immigrants should be returned to where they came from. And yes this includes the illegal Irish in the United States. Illegal immigration to an island like Ireland should be very easy to stop.