Immigration- A Proper Debate

is_that_so

There is an extremely long article here by Francis Fukiyama, which is worth a read if you have the time, in relation to identity and identity politics which is probably what we are all skirting around here.

My own take on this is as follows

I think the shots at the immigrants taking local jobs is something that, like all other countries who experience this phenomenon, affects those who are at the lower end of the skills spectrum. It will always form part of this debate but there tends to be very little evidence of it.

People can be suspicious of "strangers" - even from the next town.

I also believe that the current restrictions imposed on Romania and Bulgaria are warranted. Considering how much the population has increased from the 2004 accession states a cautious approach makes sense.

We must have immigration systems which unfortunately also have to say what we do when people break laws or try to subvert those systems. There must be controls and restrictions.

We need an asylum system that is fair and transparent and also allows the State to deal with people abusing it.

We need to work out how to integrate people. I do agree with the need for immigrants to show a connection to the state and that must include some understanding of what Ireland has come from - historically , and learning the language. Any society that you live in for more than six months is one you should actually be part of and that includes learning the language.

Language knowledge works both ways and can benefit both the State and immigrants.

But that means that we need to decide who are we. Up until 20 years ago we we were a "poor Catholic country".

We seem to have no idea what we want to be but we are sure we don't want to go back to the dark ages of the 1920s-1980s. Knowing what I don't want just maintains a state of inertia.

That is also part of the debate because how can we integrate people into something we are not sure what we want to be?

brianthebard

Dontico wrote:

as i said, we should only be conserned with european problems. that includes our french and german comrades. we should only be loyal to them and not non-europeans. especially not the way our gov is helping the americans.

And the reason for this is? And who said anything about loyalty, either european or non-european?

youpalinda

Why are you so freaking out? I read all your posts and some of your assumptions were just so ridiculous and meaningless, as for example the Islamization of Ireland by Muslim immigrants, that’s enough, don’t you feel a little bit stupid for having posted such thoughts? I mean immigrants are not savages who want to invade Ireland and convert it, they just want to find a job and hope to get a better life, that’s it. With such thoughts it is for sure that immigrants would never be able to be integrated. I agree with the idea that immigration should be regulated but stop seeing immigrants like monsters, they are human beings like all of you, and don’t forget that in former time Irish people were immigrants too, in 19th century millions of Irish immigrated in US due to starvation, and did they want to convert US into Catholic country??? I don’t think so. Now that Ireland begin to have a better economic situation don’t close your door and border to needy people just because you are too cowardly or selfish.
Share, share, share this is the right thing to do to have a better world.
Open-mindedness is the best way to not die idiot.

PS: sorry if I made some grammar mistakes, I’m not a native English speaker I’m French.

Sesshoumaru

youpalinda wrote:

Why are you so freaking out? I read all your posts and some of your assumptions were just so ridiculous and meaningless, as for example the Islamization of Ireland by Muslim immigrants, that’s enough, don’t you feel a little bit stupid for having posted such thoughts? I mean immigrants are not savages who want to invade Ireland and convert it, they just want to find a job and hope to get a better life, that’s it. With such thoughts it is for sure that immigrants would never be able to be integrated. I agree with the idea that immigration should be regulated but stop seeing immigrants like monsters, they are human beings like all of you, and don’t forget that in former time Irish people were immigrants too, in 19th century millions of Irish immigrated in US due to starvation, and did they want to convert US into Catholic country??? I don’t think so. Now that Ireland begin to have a better economic situation don’t close your door and border to needy people just because you are too cowardly or selfish.
Share, share, share this is the right thing to do to have a better world.
Open-mindedness is the best way to not die idiot.

PS: sorry if I made some grammar mistakes, I’m not a native English speaker I’m French.

Yea France is a model of immigrant integration. Don't you feel stupid lecturing others when your own country is a total mess? How many burnt out cars/buses/people were there in Paris this week?

InFront

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Don't you feel stupid lecturing others when your own country is a total mess?

Why should he/she? I presume that poster doesn't run France.
Given that they probably live in Ireland, I don't see what your point might be.

Dontico

InFront wrote:

Why should he/she? I presume that poster doesn't run France.

ah sure you never no!

youpalinda

Wow very mature answer, I must admit that I am pretty impressed. Did I say something that could make you think that I run France, that I was responsible for all these “mess” in France? Do I represent all the France? I make it clear, the situation in France has nothing to do with what I think, Ok? I set forth my point of view as an independent and sensible person! Does that mean that as French government has failed in their policy of immigrants integration, so I as a French I wouldn’t be entitled to express a personnel opinion on immigration anymore? Oh my God, and actually what does my nationality have to do with that? I don’t see the point of this attack, and what would it be if I was Irish, American, Polish etc???? Is there a difference? Would my opinion be more valuable? Cannot you think just with a little intelligence and let all your silly prejudice aside for a second. If it is too hard for you so forget it and have a happy perfect life, because I would probably not be interested in what you would have to say.
If I had known that my nationality would discredit me I would probably not have mentioned it, I thought you were all adult enough to not attack me on this point, I suppose I was wrong.
Sad attitude I have to say….

marcsignal

Zambia232 wrote:

I am willing accept critics of the above however please try and come up with something other than refering to our own inefficent courts /department of foreign affirs etc . In short they should be doing their job.

Good Post, have no real issue myself with immigration per say, but I would like to see more integration if i'm honest.

oscarBravo

youpalinda: you're new, so I guess I'd better explain something to you. This is a forum where we try to facilitate calm and reasoned debate on political topics, even those topics that people tend to feel strongly about. Sesshoumarou's response to your post is the type of personal attack and overreaction that's discouraged, but an overreaction in response is not appropriate.

Please stick around, as I for one would be interested in hearing more about immigration from a French perspective.

Bienvenu(e?) à boards.ie - je vous souhaite une visite agréable.

brianthebard

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Yea France is a model of immigrant integration. Don't you feel stupid lecturing others when your own country is a total mess? How many burnt out cars/buses/people were there in Paris this week?

Can you tell us how many there were?

marcsignal

oscarBravo wrote:

Please stick around, as I for I would be interested in hearing more about immigration from a French perspective.

me too

Tea drinker

Hi youpalinda. One thing which will serve you well on this board, is a thick neck, if not a thick head:)
Of course your nationality doesn't remove you from this debate. Equally, the fact that Irish emigrated all over does not mean we are excluded from looking at ALL sides of this debate. You mentioned good ol USA. The Indians didn't fair too well out of the European immigrants... their own fault for not integrating them!
Seriously, however, there have been recent events which reflect poorly on French policies. One is the race riots. another would be mentioned at the start of this article:
http://strategyunit.blogsome.com/2005/11/18/economic-immigration-jobs-and-polish-plumbers/
Without judging you or blaming you, what do you think caused the problems at home????

I think we have enough Polish plumbers, now I want Polish Politicians. Bertie Ahern is the 4th highest paid politician in Eurpope, based on this old link: http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=152457 BTW I think he is actually 3rd highest now
If it's ok to replace or supplement graduates, then I think people who have no training and a knack for saving their own skin can be replaced. We did mention it's always the low skilled who suffer most....

the legal profession is understaffed and very pricey. I want Latvian Lawyers. And some Jewish Judges.... I think? If anyone mentions replacing these jobs, a big old can of But!, But! gets opened.

marcsignal

youpalinda I also would like you to continue to contribute. I think your opinion and experiences of this issue from the French experience will be valuable info, and I'm sure other posters feel the same.
Immigration is a relatively new phenonemon in Ireland and we also don't have the problem/aspect of extreme right wing politics to contend with here (at this point). So please stick around.

purple'n'gold

This type of debate will be just quaint ancient history if we keep shedding (good) jobs at the present frightening rate. All the immigrants will soon be gone to pastures new and a few hundred thousand Irish with them. Then we can revert back to boring old backward Ireland again. Where the only real job is a government one.

oscarBravo

p'n'g, I wonder how many times you'll have to repeat that unsupported assertion before it becomes undisputed fact?

purple'n'gold

oscarBravo wrote:

p'n'g, I wonder how many times you'll have to repeat that unsupported assertion before it becomes undisputed fact?

Figures are facts I’m afraid. We are loosing good jobs at an alarming rate.

oscarBravo

I see jobs being lost, on aggregate, at about the rate I've seen jobs being lost since I first starting paying attention to the news.

Where are the figures to back up the "facts" that "all the immigrants will soon be gone", that "a few hundred thousand Irish" will be gone with them, and that we'll "revert back to boring old backward Ireland again"?

You've expressed your opinion ad nauseam. Enough already.

youpalinda

Ok I come back, I didn't want to, since I felt quite unwanted when I intervened in your debate, ok you convinced me. (I'm joking)
As you mentioned it France is not a good model for immigrant integration, I can’t deny it. But this case is not necessary the same for all countries it depends on how you handle the issue.
I really think that all these problems of urban violence are not only French government’s fault for not having integrated immigrants well enough, but also because of French people’s attitude toward immigrants. You know several investigations have proved that discrimination is often applied in recruitment even though it is forbidden by French legislation. That proves laws are not enough for immigrants being integrated, it needs also the will of native people to integrate them. That’s why I reacted strongly about your assumption about an islamization of Ireland by Muslim immigrants, you do exactly what you shouldn’t do, that is to say demonize immigrants, this is really not the thing to do, you’d better learn to know them and to live with them. If you feel it is beyond your ability, if you think it will be too hard and infeasible, so don’t let immigrants come in your country. Serious, ok in the current situation immigration is beneficial to Ireland because you need labour force, but before accepting immigrants’ help to support your economic growth you should think of the aftermath and wonder if you can accept them. Because immigrants are not going to leave Ireland once they will finish the job, their children and grandchildren will stay there and it will be your responsibility to not exclude them from society. I mean immigrants are not machines, you cannot use them and get rid of them once you don’t need them anymore. I tell you that because this is what happened in France, after the 2nd world war as France needed labour force to rebuilt the country so French government encouraged immigration, once they didn’t need them anymore they couldn’t throw them out, and problem is, France didn’t manage to integrate properly immigrant’s children that’s why there are all these urban clashes and riots which are the expression of immigrants’ children’s anger against French society. I insist on mentioning “immigrants’ children” because actually it is not immigrants who cause riots but immigrants’ children, even though they are French from a legal point of view but they tend to be victim of discrimination, many of them have diplomas but they can’t find any job in line with their qualification because of their origin. Obviously employers don’t claim publicly they discriminate them since it is prohibited by law but it is real facts. This is the reason why immigrants’ children are so angry, this is a tricky situation because they are not really attached to their country of origin but they don’t feel really at home either in a country where they are still seen as foreigners.
In my opinion this is not really French government’s fault but rather French people’s fault, because they didn’t truly want to integrate them and didn’t do what it was necessary for, now there is the issue of unemployment in France they naturally shifted the blame onto immigrants and this doesn’t help matters. As conclusion I think the good integration of immigrants depends only on you, your behaviour and attitude toward them, it’s simple.
The pain of injustice creates hate which causes violence. If you don’t want to have to face the same problems then help immigrants feel at home instead of rejecting them, obviously in the case you want them in your country. And don’t put all the blame on government it is also your responsibility.
Don't make same mistakes as France.

PS: sorry for having lost my temper, hate being attacked for no valuable reasons.

Zambia

Wow this has got to 10 pages with only one banning, Im impressed...and its not locked.

I think everyone here has been very good with some exceptions. I also think youpalinda made some very interesting pionts.

Tea drinker

Hi Youpalinda, I'm glad you came back, we're not all thick savages here..... just me!

youpalinda wrote:

....I insist on mentioning “immigrants’ children” because actually it is not immigrants who cause riots but immigrants’ children..
.

Yes that seems to be the case. I understand labour laws in France are pretty extreme too. I wonder if these were more relaxed then the employers might be more open to hiring people with a different ethnic mix.

There were race riots in UK, even though UK has pretty good integration, through accident or intent I don't know. One thing I am sure added to this was ghetto's, an area that could be identified as bad, or unnatractive. These could have been "made" unnatractive through poor policy (like tallaght in years gone by) where there was plenty of housing but not much jobs.

youpalinda wrote:

....
this is a tricky situation because they are not really attached to their country of origin but they don’t feel really at home either in a country where they are still seen as foreigners..

I think ghettos encourage this, as it gives a barrier, them and us, to both communities (note BOTH not THE)

bob2000

It seems looking at the arguments raised by various posters, that we should simply ignore the massive social problems that have been caused in the Uk & France by large scale immigration. Whether the social problems are caused by poor government policies, the refusal of immigrant groups to adapt to European culture, or by attitudes found amoungst the resident population is irrelevant. Burying your head in the sand and coming out with hippy claptrap such as 'one world, one people' is nonsense. There were 40,000 muslims in the uk in 1950. Now there are 1.8m, the brits are dealing with arranged marriages, honor killings, medieval attitudes towards homosexuality & women, shoebombers etc. What is going to be different here ? The difference should be that we have no moral obligation, unlike the UK, France, to accomodate these people. We should come up with a points system for all outside the EU,
furthermore, we should insist on medical tests for all coming in. They were doing this on Ellis Island 100 years ago, so whats the problem.

bonkey

bob2000 wrote:

It seems looking at the arguments raised by various posters, that we should simply ignore the massive social problems that have been caused in the Uk & France by large scale immigration.

Burying your head to problems is as stupid as deciding that the problems are insurmountable simply because you don't know what the real causes are in any detail.

Whether the social problems are caused by poor government policies, the refusal of immigrant groups to adapt to European culture, or by attitudes found amoungst the resident population is irrelevant.

Why? If you can understand the root causes of problems, you are in a better position to determine whether or not you can avoid them.

Take the reverse of your logic....Because there are large-scale immigration models which do not have these massive problems that you refer to, this shows that immigration can work without social problems. Understanding why it can work without problems is irrelevant. All we need to know is it can and therefore we should embrace it.

I bet you can see the flaw in that reasoning, right?

What is going to be different here ? The difference should be that we have no moral obligation, unlike the UK, France, to accomodate these people. We should come up with a points system for all outside the EU,
furthermore, we should insist on medical tests for all coming in. They were doing this on Ellis Island 100 years ago, so whats the problem.

The problem is that extra-EU immigration forms the vast minority of immigration in Ireland, once you exclude returning emigrants. So your proposed "we need to do this or we'll be overrun" argument is targetting the very groups that we don't allow free entry en masse to in the first place.

Its also worth nothing that having argued that the root causes of problems aren't worth worrying about, you go on to suggest that we need to take measures to protect against some root problems that you perceive.

So it seems that what you're saying is both that you don't care why problems arise, and that you think that certain issues should be dealt with because they can lead to problems.

bob2000

Wherever the problems come from, whether the political correctness camp decide that it is our fault, the governments fault etc , The reality is that we will experience problems - the UK is a stark warning of what will happen to us. We can sit around from here until kingdom come commissioning reports. I would argue that until we have a clearer idea of solutions, we should be more cautious not less so. Again, if large economies such as france & germany have not managed assimilation, what hope have we ?

Zombrex

bob2000 wrote:

Wherever the problems come from, whether the political correctness camp decide that it is our fault, the governments fault etc , The reality is that we will experience problems

And ...?

Life is one big series of problems. That is the nature of society.

You seem to be complaining about head in the sand mentality yet you appear to be advocating simply stopping immigration. Ignoring the fact that this is not an practical option, it is also rather ridiculous to argue that doing so will magically cure society of all its problems.

We had poor health care, crime, over crowding in urban areas, homelessness etc etc in the mid 80s when people were leaving in droves.

Or are you happy having all these problems so long as they don't involve foreign nationals?

OPENROAD

b2cmac wrote:

I only compare to Ireland to the UK as I feel that there isn’t enough relevant information as there is in the UK.

However Ireland does share many similarities with the UK, such as common language, 1 of only 3 countries that allowed the likes of Poland etc to come and work here.

The common Travel area etc.

My own position is we do need a certain king of immigration.

We need skilled workers such as Doctors and nurses, even in some low skilled sectors a certain kind of immigration is needed. This enriches our country which im sure nobody would disagree.

But I feel that immigration should be on a points system such as in America, Canada Australia and so on.

I cannot see any logical argument saying that uncontrolled flow of migrant workers is good.

If it were controlled I seriously don’t think anyone good argue against it, I for one wouldn’t and couldn’t. But at the moment our borders are open to abuse for criminals as well as terrorists. Better border controls with controlled migration is surely the most sensible approach for Irelands future and growth.

Someone also mentioned refugees. I for one do not think we should be banning refugees coming to ireland. I certainly feel that we should only allow genuine cases and we must do our part with the rest of Europe in helping people who are in need. But as I understand it, the level of refugee`s we now accept has gone down since allowing the new EU countries free entry to the Irish Labour markets, something im sure is not a coincidence!

Also Mods, is possible to have a poll? An idea of who is for and against migration? At least then we would have a reflective opinion as what Members of these forums really think without the debate ending up in senseless dribble and the thread being locked.

What harm could a poll do?

Ok to clarify your position we need a points sytem, obviously this would not include people wishing to settle here from other EU countries?

Far Corfe

We should have immigration, but only immigration we need, and targetted closely to skills shortages that cannot be filled from the local population. Irelands diaspora should be favoured first.

We should have our own laws regarding asylum, the Geneva Convention and Human Rights act should be disregarded until it is updated for the 21st century, and its current abuses should be addressed as a matter of urgency.

wes

Far Corfe wrote:

We should have our own laws regarding asylum, the Geneva Convention and Human Rights act should be disregarded until it is updated for the 21st century, and its current abuses should be addressed as a matter of urgency.

No, can't agree with this. If we disregard the Geneva Convention and the Human Rights act we may as well start living like savages.

bonkey

Far Corfe wrote:

We should have immigration, but only immigration we need, and targetted closely to skills shortages that cannot be filled from the local population. Irelands diaspora should be favoured first.

So you believe we should withdraw from the EU?

We should have our own laws regarding asylum, the Geneva Convention and Human Rights act should be disregarded until it is updated for the 21st century, and its current abuses should be addressed as a matter of urgency.

Could you give an example of this? I'm not sure what it is you're talking about.

Far Corfe

bonkey wrote:

So you believe we should withdraw from the EU?


Could you give an example of this? I'm not sure what it is you're talking about.

We have taken enough from Eastern Europe, until other EU countries open their doors like us, we should accept no more. Should France, Germany, Italy leave the EU for maintaining their barriers?

The Geneva Convention and the Human Rights act is now just a ruse. We are being taken for suckers on a grand scale.

burnedfaceman

first post on this thread,if indeed ireland was to reform immigration policy i feel we should adopt policy along the lines of australian immigration policy where immigrants could only enter if they fit the criteria neccesary and have skills required by economy or can buy their way in to the country. it would be a more realistic approach to the issue.

obviously as an eu member we have to accept citizens of other member states, not an issue IMO as most of the eastern european immigrants are likely to return home in the event of an improvement in their own countrys economies or the event of a recession in ireland.

I think the poster who mentioned abandoning the geneva convention was not proposing that we descend into an anarchaic state but rather we examine the fact that the geneva convention is open to blatant abuse primarily by african immigrants. take the act that there is no direct means of getting to ireland from nigeria accept on the return journey of a deportation flight. if people are going to claim asylum how is it they pass through africa and across europe before reaching ireland and claiming asylum. genuine asylum seekers do not pick and choose which country they claim asylum in and the geneva convention allows immigrants to abuse this system.

australia has tackled its issue of asian immigration by housing its immigrants in large complexs where they are housed until their application is processed. this process can take up to five years and has resulted in word getting through that its not worth it to claim asylum in australia. such a move here would inevitably be met by criticism by some but asylum seekers and refugees are fed and watered and housed. surely this must be their primary concern if they are indeed genuine. so if indeed asylum seekers are geunine and are fleeing oppression or war they should be quite content that they are having their basic needs provided for and in the event they are successfully processed then be should be granted the oppurtunity to live and work in Ireland.

when my family emigrated to australia in the dark days of the 1980s, we were not given any hand outs and worked. i believe a policy of making immigrants work and not receive any hand outs is a further option that ireland should explore. if immigrants want to come into the country then give them nothing and let them pay their own way.

to summarise allow skilled workers come into the country and contribute, adopt a tough policy towards migrants who are bogus asylum seekers and allow genuine asylum seekers to live here after their period of processing and work but receive nothing in way of handouts until such time as they begin to contribute