The Ultimate Comic Bookshelf

the Shades

Ah Fysh and ztoical are finally talking my language, there will be an update on what has made it onto the shelf and my defence of Squee! at some point tomorrow when I'm not just in from the pub. I would also like to add stop saying the Dark Knight Returns, it's already on there and sorry but there's no way in hell the Dark Knight Strikes Again will ever be on there, read Fysh's explanation as to why he's far more polite than I could ever be on the subject. (Although my feelings about it have already been voiced in another well established thread on this board)

RAIN

''Onto Morrisson, while I think of it. I've not read all of the Invisibles so I can't comment on that, but I'm undecided about his standing on the Ultimate Shelf - perhaps some of the shorter stuff (WE3, Seaguy or maybe Animal Man) but what I've seen of the Invisibles so far strikes me as having a bit too much "weird for the sake of weird" "reality is greater than you can perceive" stuff in it without justifying it. The Filth suffered from this too. (That said, the Invisibles may yet get away with it, I've 3 volumes left to read).''


I dont Agree that morrison is trying to be weird for the sake of it ,If you buy the official companion book for the invisibles literally every page of the series is covered and explained how EVERYTHING ties into the story with a lenghtly interview with Morrison at the end .The guys a genius no question about it and was recently voted 3rd best comic book writer of all time so he deserves a place on the shelf .
P.S I cant understand what you mean by the filth is being weird just to be weird ?Thats like saying the bible is being Religious just to be religious ..

bombidol

Reckon Animal Man has to be up there too. and Powers.

Jack B. Badd

spooydermot wrote:

Perhapas Rising Stars

I'm kinda curious as to how you'd justify (perhaps) adding Rising Stars to the shelf. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adored the series and Straczynski is like God in my book after B5 but while I loved Rising Stars I also found myself picking out a lot of little flaws in it. I feel I appreciated it more for its potential as a fantastic story than what it eventually became, especially since the momentum seemed to lag a bit towards the end of the middle. On the other hand I could be just nitpicking here. So the long and short is that I, as a fan of the man, would appreciate justification for including it if you're willing to give one

RAIN wrote:

If you buy the official companion book for the invisibles literally every page of the series is covered and explained how EVERYTHING ties into the story with a lenghtly interview with Morrison at the end

Am I the only one who reckons that having to buy a companion book in order to be able to understand the story you're reading is a wee bit of a rip off, not to mention bad story writing and yeah, being "weird for the sake of weird"? I know I'll probably get a bashing from the GM fans here but he'd be a definite no-no for me just from the point of view of his almost complete inability to write an interesting story and tbh none of them have ever given me an adequate explanation as to why I should think otherwise.

Fysh

RAIN wrote:

I dont Agree that morrison is trying to be weird for the sake of it ,If you buy the official companion book for the invisibles literally every page of the series is covered and explained how EVERYTHING ties into the story with a lenghtly interview with Morrison at the end .The guys a genius no question about it and was recently voted 3rd best comic book writer of all time so he deserves a place on the shelf .
P.S I cant understand what you mean by the filth is being weird just to be weird ?Thats like saying the bible is being Religious just to be religious ..

Well, I'll try to put it a different way. There are a lot of interesting ideas presented in the comic (and I have to reiterate that I've not yet read the full Invisibles saga - what I know if it is having read volumes 1-4 and extensive notes about it around the place). But, if they don't make sense as explained in the comic, then the story presented in the comic has failed. And while I can't comment on the Invisibles yet, I can comment that this was how the Filth came across to me - lots of interesting notions in it, but after reading it several times I still don't have a full picture of exactly what was going on in it. Comparing this with the far simpler St. Swithin's Day by Morrison which still has something of a twist, I think that Morrison has some fascinating ideas but over-reaches himself as a writer when trying to convey them.

(Quote added to clarify my response, as I'm not replying to Jack B. Badd)

thumbninja

qwertplaywert wrote:

cant believe no body but be has mentioned any whedon stuff..............

take this fan by the hand
and teach him what it means to be
watching things other than serenity..

look at 'bear' forget 'squee'
morrison is a god to me
invisibles and guys of sea thats what I call qual - ity

I would go on but theres a risk
the guys on here just wont like this
I don't care cause you see.. first you'll have to catch up with me..

*flees*

bombidol

In fairness Whedon isnt all that great. I like his Tv shows but his comic runs do little for me.

ztoical

thumbninja wrote:

take this fan by the hand
and teach him what it means to be
watching things other than serenity..

look at 'bear' forget 'squee'
morrison is a god to me
invisibles and guys of sea thats what I call qual - ity

I would go on but theres a risk
the guys on here just wont like this
I don't care cause you see.. first you'll have to catch up with me..

*flees*

Me thinks the ninja has to much time on her hands

thumbninja

ztoical wrote:

Me thinks the ninja has to much time on her hands

unfortunatly no.. if I had time I'd give full usefull answers like your goodself. but as it is you'll have to deal with the top of the head drivle I spout when tired, busy and coffeed up

on a useful note.. add 'top ten'
well written and with a host of artist backround jokes.

anyone mentioned powers? the character interplay is just wonderful.

Fysh

On the Morrison side : Seaguy, We3, Vimanarama all worked for me as self-contained pieces. It seems to be when he goes for larger projects that things go skewiff, but in his defence he's been involved in some gorgeous-looking comics (whatever else I say about the Filth, it looked fantastic ; We3 had amazing artwork, and the rest of his stuff I've seen has at least been decent quality). Even the Seven Soldiers project descended into oddness towards the end by leaving a few things just hanging (like who or what Darkseid is in the greater context of the DCU, or why Shilo Norman is so inextricably linked to the idea of the Eternal Spirit of Freedom).

Anyway. Another question for the shades : do books about comics count? Cos if so, I'd say Masters Of American Comics and Scott McCloud's Understanding comics should be in there. (Possibly Reinventing Comics & Making Comics, but I wasn't so impressed by Reinventing... and I haven't read Making...). Eisner's Comics & Sequential Art would be another one, and 99 Ways To Tell A Story by Matt Madden yet another one. What say ye?

ztoical

well if we are putting in books about comics then "Seduction of the Innocent" by Dr. Fredric Wertham must go on the shelf as it is the book that created the mainstream comic book industry as we know it today - the publication of this book resulted in the industry imposing self-censorship on itself by creating The Comics Code Authority thus altering the direction of the industry for decades to come and resulting in the death of EC comics.

Also a comic that might not be a good comic but has an important place in comics history - Mike Diana's Boilded angel, one of the first and biggest legal cases for the comic book legal defense fund.

Fysh

I dunno bout the Wertham book to be honest, it's historically interesting but I prefer Chris FW's summary here.

Intermmission:
(Incidentally, o instigator of Ireland's first 24-hour-comics event, you need to join the challenge sometime soon).
Intermission ends.

(Since I can't think of any contributions myself at the moment, I'll link to Time's top 10 graphic novels, as a sort of suggestion by proxy)

the Shades

Ok why Squee!? Well...

In Squee's "little universe beneath the blankets" anything can happen or jump out and grab you. Faced with the farcical consequences of alien abduction, killer teddy bears, dust mites, zombie class mates and the anti-Christ wanting to be his friend, Squee struggles to survive. However, his tales, are something that everyone has experienced as a child and to see the demons exorcised, in often gruesome and violent but ultimately humorous ways, is a unique way through which the artist can communicate with his audience. Squee like many of us sees the world in a way no one else understands. He is an individual, struggling to make sense of his world and the authority figures who seem oblivious and uncaring towards his experiences. Vasquez, hence relates these experiences with a knowing honesty. Squee realises the ridiculous farces that these situations lead to and as he faces each of these fears, realises the world is not so bad after all.

I'd also like to suggest Bone (which Fysh has kind of already nominated through the Time article). Why Bone?

In Bone, Smith has combined many elements of fantasy, fairy tales, international creation myths and cartoons to create a tale with intergenerational appeal. Simply rendered, Smith's style hides a sophisticated draughtsmanship. Bone never fails in its storytelling and even the most simple of punch lines is delivered with great finesse. With the darker side of Bone revelling in it's fantasy roots the book never fails to entertain and certainly maintained its appeal and intrigue through the enitre run. It never once lagged or had obvious filler issues and should stand as a lesson in cartooning to anyone with an interest in comics.

Oh and as for books on comics, they could probably warrant a shelf of their own, so Mr. Fysh if you want to be the judge of that one I'm sure we'd be happy neighbours

the Shades

OK an update as to what has so far made it onto the shelf:

100 Bullets
The Sandman
The Dark Knight Returns
Watchmen
Transmetropolitan
Maus
The Beano
Incal (ztoical got me with her anything by Moebius comment

That's it for now, I appreciate all the discussion and suggestions but I really need to see more arguments for the nominations being included. Preacher and The Invisibles are very much under review, I've seen good arguments for them and against them so if anyone would care to they might just tip the balance. (thumbnina almost managed it with her rhyme but then she had to go and tease Squee! so my good favour was lost )

ztoical

the Shades wrote:

Incal (ztoical got me with her anything by Moebius comment

MOEBIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fysh

Righto, now for my attempt at defending Jimmy Corrigan:

Jimmy Corrigan, Smartest Kid On Earth - where to start? In the realm of semi-autobiographical indie comics, Jimmy Corrigan stands out above the majority of the field. A multilayered story focusing heavily on character, atmosphere and mood rather than action or plot, combined with some of the finest draughtmanship and design/layout I've ever seen. Ware's style is very distinctive and recognizable, and perhaps the single commendation of his work is that the reduced page size does not affect the readability of the artwork in the slightest.

Next case for the defence : Tomine's Summer Blonde

the Shades

I'd call that a pretty strong defence for Jimmy, chances are it will be successful!


I'd also like to take this opportunity to nominate (very unsurprisingly considering my avatar) Peanuts!

Quite simply every character type is represented in the characters, all of life takes place within the strips and it IS life. you have philosophy, theology and great humourous insights into the human condition. It may well be the greatest comic strip ever! You know what they say 'From the mouths of babes...'

the Shades

On the shelf:

100 Bullets
The Sandman
The Dark Knight Returns
Watchmen
Transmetropolitan
The Beano
Incal
Jimmy Corrigan
Squee!
Bone
Peanuts
The Invisibles

bombidol

Hellblazer

ztoical

hmmmmmmm hello Maus??

are you actually going to go out buy all of these Shades [not counting the ones you already own on the list]?

actually now that I look at your list, I have all of them, man, I need to get out more

Fysh

Whose run on Hellblazer would you suggest? Personally, I'm not sure I could pick one run but due to the wildly differing angles taken by each new author it'd be hard to justify the whole series as it stands so far. (As in, for each given run there tends to be an overall character arc and storyline, but for the series as a whole it's just The Life And Times Of John Constantine, Archmage And Bastard) I think Delano's run would be my choice, because that would include the Fear Machine and Family Man storylines.

There again, much as I like Hellblazer I'm not quite convinced it deserves space on The Shelf...

bombidol

I like some of careys run on Hellblazer, and although there are different angles taken by every writer i feel that its consistantly good enough to make any top comic list. I reckon if 100 Bullets makes the list then HB does too. As you can pick up any HB TPB and start reading, try and do that with 100B and you are in a world of pain!

the Shades

On the shelf:

100 Bullets
The Sandman
The Dark Knight Returns
Watchmen
Transmetropolitan
The Beano
Incal
Jimmy Corrigan
Squee!
Bone
Peanuts
The Invisibles
Maus

(Sorry missed Maus the last time, just an oversight was trying to remember them off the top of my head, any other nominations and justifications?)

Draco

What about Lone Wolf and Cub? Fantastic ink and charcoal renderings so 16th century Japan, apparently historically accurate, no face repeated, the relationship between father and son well played out, a definite start middle and end over 28 books. Not forgetting, of course, the ultraviolence and epic 200 page long duels.

An aside:
While trying to think of something that hasn't been mentioned already a thought struck me - would it be better to pick a single volume from things like 'Preacher' and 'Transmetropolitan' than the whole thing? Something that captures the essence of it all? To take the example of Preacher, the weak ending ruins it all, but I'm sure you could pick one volume that sums it all up. Don't ask me which one though as I haven't read it in about 4 years!

bombidol

Vol 5 of Preacher I think. one one with the battle in the desert? they could have ended it there almost.

the Shades

If something has a weak ending I'd be inclined t leave it off the shelf all together. I'd nominate The Long Halloween because it was a great series but the last issue was utterly disappointing and tarnished the entire story, so I'd rather leave it off altogether. Is a weak ending forgivable on the Ultimate Bookshelf?

(Why does that sound like a Sex in The City storyline tag?)

bombidol

Of course its forgivable!

Fysh

I dunno bout that myself, although I do like the idea of saying, for example, that a single volume of a series can still be counted if the series as a whole is deemed to fall short of the requirements.

For example, in the case of Transmet I'd nominate Lust For Life - the best introduction to the series and a perfect summary of what you'll get if you follow the whole story. For Preacher I'd probably be more inclined to go for either Salvation or Ancient History because they work more as self-contained stories, but it's a hard one to call.

I think the weak ending thing is a problem because it's an aspect of the story as a whole. But at the same time you can have a crappy ending to a great story, and still have excellent and groundbreaking artwork and design concepts which might deserve shelfspace.

On the note of single volumes, I'd suggest maybe Son Of Man as a good standalone example of Hellblazer - strong (though not astonishing) artwork, well written from a character perspective and also a perfect starting point for a newcomer to the series to figure out whether they'll enjoy it or not. Plus, you know, lots of Constantine/Chas banter, which is one of the most enjoyable parts of the whole thing.

Draco

spooydermot wrote:

[

Kingdom Come:
Surprised that no one mentioned this before (or maybe I missed it)
Fantastic artwork from Alex Ross and answers the question where do old superheros go?

I also forgot to second this. Just works so well even when you don't know exactly who everyone is.

the Shades

On the shelf:

100 Bullets
The Sandman
The Dark Knight Returns
Watchmen
Transmetropolitan
The Beano
Incal
Jimmy Corrigan
Squee!
Bone
Peanuts
The Invisibles
Maus
The Spirit