Rabbite signals FF Coalition possible...

Dontico

ballooba wrote:

For one thing, Sinn Fein could never go into power with Fine Gael because Fine Gael are historically the Treaty party. This is also why you won't be seeing a 32 county Fine Gael anytime soon.

yeah cause FG are totally against the idea of united ireland. i party which uses micheal collins as a mascot. :rolleyes:

should i point that sinn fein(assuming one thinks they are connected to the IRA) has been pushing us away a united ireland, ever since they went against the treaty?

i would imagine FG would be more annoyed about sinn fein having members of gael murdered in the past.

LostinBlanch

ballooba wrote:

PDs will not be in government after the GE. They are irrelevant.

Yeah, well it was a tongue in cheek quote! But the PDs remind me of someone Pat Kennys age in Slappers about 20 minutes before it closes and looking desperately for anyone that'll have them. Sees that no one will and then says that's ok because they wouldn't go near them anyway.

EDIT I can't lay claim to that analogy, maybe it was Miriam Lord, but it seems to fit them quite well.

ballooba

Dontico wrote:

yeah cause FG are totally against the idea of united ireland. i party which uses micheal collins as a mascot. :rolleyes:

You needn't roll your eyes at me buddy. You have just shown your complete ignorance of irish politics and history. Michael Collins signed The Treaty which led to the partitioning of the island.

Cringeful stuff.

InFront

Sir Toady is onto a promise of some kind from Bertie or maybe Sam Smyth has been out for a few drinkies too many with Herr Flick.
.

Agreed. Thankfully, a lot of people seem to be able to see through the Independent's desire to discredit the Alternative Government. The different messages eminating from the Independent and the more reliable I.T. is telling.

But even for those who don't agree that the Independent is on a mission, no publicity is bad publicity, and I'm sure Labour are simply delighted with that newspaper keeping them in the headlines recently.

McSandwich

ballooba wrote:

You needn't roll your eyes at me buddy. You have just shown your complete ignorance of irish politics and history. Michael Collins signed The Treaty which led to the partitioning of the island.

Cringeful stuff.

You present a very narrow and uninformed view of politics at the time. True he signed the Treaty, but he didn't enviage the partition as a permanent divide - more a means to an end. If he wasn't assassinated who knows what would have happened next.

McSandwich

ballooba wrote:

For one thing, Sinn Fein could never go into power with Fine Gael because Fine Gael are historically the Treaty party. This is also why you won't be seeing a 32 county Fine Gael anytime soon.

Sinn Fein's links with the IRA would surely, on constitutional grounds, prevent them from forming a government with ANY party.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

Some might agree that the The Irish Times is a little less one sided and a little more reliable in their reporting.

Some might say The Indo is pretty much a tabloid, others might say that it just is. That they're running with a compact edition only serves to reinforce this idea.

Don't read the Times and agree that if the Indo gets a story right it is more by accident then design.

But I see even now the Examiner (and I'd like to see anyone accuse the Crosby's of being led by FF!!) probing the same story in the same way and pointing out that Rabbitte's answers have been confusing and inadequate. He was clear a while back on Questions and Answers, since then he has been very far from clear on the matter and refuses to rule out Coalition with FF with him in charge. The nadir was his interview with Kenny where he couldn't give a yes or no to repeated questions.

ballooba wrote:

He has been quite clear on this. Why would he open himself up to a debate on what a potential successor as leader of the party would do.

He has already opened up the whole debate, it won't go away because of his failure to give a striaght answer. If he simply said he would not lead Labour into Coalition with FF matters would be a lot clearer, it was what he was saying before recent polls. Now he is changing to 'it is not envisaged, circumstances won't allow' stuff.

ghostdancer

ballooba wrote:

I'm not sure if SF people would have much time for FF?

any of them that i've spoken with most certainly don't.

for all the talk of FF trying to stay in power and trying to make deals with this party and that party, I can't see SF going into coalition with FF at all, nor FF wanting that. it's too close to recent history for it, maybe the next time the GE comes around it would be more plausible, but most people are still of the "reds under the bed" mentality with SF. most of the FF members would kick up a fuss,most FF and SF voters would be appalled, and I can't see Caoimhin O Caolaoin sitting there beside the man he's ridiculed in the Dail so often, the 2 of them best buddies....
there's far too much to lose for both of them.

ballooba

McSandwich wrote:

You present a very narrow and uninformed view of politics at the time.

I was attempting above to convey how Sinn Fein supporters would see the situation. Dontico seems to disagree with that point of view. The fact of the matter is that Michael Collins was assassinated and he never did have a chance to follow through. We will never know what he may or may not have achieved.

I wouldn't say I have an in depth understanding of politics at that time, then again I wouldn't say I am uninformed. As a member of Fine Gael I do believe that Michael Collins got the best deal he could at the time.

The same could be said of Sinn Fein at the moment. They have had to compromise their postion a lot to make their goals achievable. Dissidents don't like the way Sinn Fein is going about things, but thankfully unlike the civil war they are a tiny minority.

The point of the matter is that Sinn Fein would have nothing to do with Fine Gael. Likewise, Fine Gael would have nothing to do with Sinn Fein. It has been suggested of late that Fianna Fail should become a 32 county party, Fianna Fail have said the time is not right. The time for Fine Gael to become a 32 county party is a long long way off. The nordies wouldn't have us.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

He has already opened up the whole debate, it won't go away because of his failure to give a striaght answer. If he simply said he would not lead Labour into Coalition with FF matters would be a lot clearer, it was what he was saying before recent polls. Now he is changing to 'it is not envisaged, circumstances won't allow' stuff.

The Questions and Answers debate was not more than a fortnight ago. I disagre that he is saying 'circumstances won't allow' he knows that Labours credibility will be forever tarnished if they do a u-turn on this. He could never lead the party into such an agreement. He would have to step down. Plus, as he said he has support of 80% of the party. Howlin would be in the 20% that are open to a deal with FF. I don't believe that Howlin could convince 30% of the party to change their views.

McSandwich

ballooba wrote:

I was attempting above to convey how Sinn Fein supporters would see the situation.

Makes sense now! It was late when I started reading this thread, I should've have read more before jumping in...

ballooba

ghostdancer wrote:

most of the FF members would kick up a fuss,

With the level of integrity FF voters seem to expect from their elected representatives I cannot imagine them having much of a problem with SF.

ghostdancer wrote:

there's far too much to lose for both of them.

Some would argue FF have too much to lose not to try and woo SF. They have far too much to lose with their Ministerial Cars, Offices, Government Jets, Loans, Gifts and even their salaries. Bertie might even have to learn to drive again. :eek:

ballooba

oscarBravo wrote:

I just spotted this. Got anything to back it up?

I can't really provide evidence as such. Don't have time to go back through the polls I'm afraid.

IMS is said to typically underestimate FG support by up to 8% and overestimate FF support by up to 3% due to the methodology used.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

With the level of integrity FF voters seem to expect from their elected representatives I cannot imagine them having much of a problem with SF.

On the other hand even FF would be surprised if the party leader ran around for a week refusing to answer in a 'yes' or 'no' manner a simple question as to whether he would form a Goverment with a certain party. Thre would be pages of hysteria here about him avoiding an issue...

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

On the other hand even FF would be surprised if the party leader ran around for a week refusing to answer in a 'yes' or 'no' manner a simple question as to whether he would form a Goverment with a certain party. Thre would be pages of hysteria here about him avoiding an issue...

The difference is Bertie doesn't have to worry about losing credibility. He doesn't have any to lose.

I'm satisfied with Pat Rabitte's answers to the questions. I think the vast majority of Labour voters would be too.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

The difference is Bertie doesn't have to worry about losing credibility. He doesn't have any to lose.

The difference is that Bertie is Taoiseach and cannot simply think about election issues only. Rabbitte has no such considerations, and if he doesn't get the finger out may not have such concerns after the next election either unless he thinks about FF. He only has to think about an election, make the right soundbites, and figure out a way to get his party out of the 10% rut. So far he is failing miserably. I appreciate he may be popular within that 10% of voters, but indecision and evasion will hardly reach out to the masses...

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

He only has to think about an election, make the right soundbites, and figure out a way to get his party out of the 10% rut.

The reason he is in that 10% rut is because Labour made the mistake of going into government with Fianna Fail in 1992. They polled 19% of first preference that year. Ever since then they have been around 10%. Only by sticking to their guns this time round will they ever get out of 'the 10% rut'.

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

Bertie might even have to learn to drive again. :eek

No he won't when he leaves office as Taoiseach in 2012 he will have a State car with a Garda driver for the rest of his life.

But I expect that Pat Rabbitte will want to go into government with FG and the Greens however when the votes are counted and they are asked by Fianna Fail to go in government they will.

They will then ditch FG and go with Fianna Fail.Politicians don't want to be in Opposition especially Rabbitte he's now fifty eight and if he doesn't get into government this year he never will.

ballooba

So you are saying

Chakar wrote:

No he won't when he leaves office as Taoiseach in 2012 he will have a State car with a Garda driver for the rest of his life.

FF will still be in government after the G.E.

Chakar wrote:

But I expect that Pat Rabbitte will want to go into government with FG and the Greens however when the votes are counted and they are asked by Fianna Fail to go in government they will.

The rainbow won't have the numbers to form a government.

Chakar wrote:

They will then ditch FG and go with Fianna Fail.Politicians don't want to be in Opposition especially Rabbitte he's now fifty eight and if he doesn't get into government this year he never will.

Labour will go with FF.

Have you anything of substance to add or are you just looking for a pantomine style "Yes, they will"/"Oh no they won't" style discussion?

About the only interesting/new thing you said above is that Bertie will have a state car when he retires. You are quite right, I forgot that.

Also, Pat Rabbitte already has been in government. He was junior minister 1994-1997.

Dontico

ballooba wrote:

You needn't roll your eyes at me buddy. You have just shown your complete ignorance of irish politics and history. Michael Collins signed The Treaty which led to the partitioning of the island.

Cringeful stuff.

you have just shown your complete ignorance of irish politics and history. signing of the Treaty would have been more likily to bring the 32 together, but the civil war/fine fail.

fine gael is officially a united ireland party. but thats meaningless. its up northren ireland not the rep..

InFront

Yes not only is Chakar confident Ahern will win, but also that he will go on for full term. Somehow I think his government's reputation or his sixtieth birthday (with stated intentions) will close the door on his office before that time even if he does win, which isn't altogether convincing.

Dontico

Dontico wrote:

...ignorance of irish politics...fine fail...

Ahem...Fianna Fail?

A Coalition that should be proffered as a valid choice at some stage has to be FF/FG. Frankly I'd much rather that than seeing the two main parties always trying to eye up someone from the fringe for a dance...

crybaby

as a supporter of the Labour party I have to say I am disgusted by how they have let one simple comment from Bertie Ahern literally rip the party up in two and anyone could have seen the rift was there from way back when they had the conference to decide to make a pact with FG, all they had to do was stand by themselves for this election and then make the decision

ballooba

Dontico wrote:

you have just shown your complete ignorance of irish politics and history. signing of the Treaty would have been more likily to bring the 32 together, but the civil war/fine fail.

fine gael is officially a united ireland party. but thats meaningless. its up northren ireland not the rep..

Is there a parrot in here, or did you mean to quote me? Also, can you please attempt to write replies in something resembling English?

The Treaty was signed! Are you questioning that?

Fine Gael is not a 32 county party, they have no representatives in the 6 counties. Neither do Fianna Fail.

crybaby wrote:

as a supporter of the Labour party I have to say I am disgusted by how they have let one simple comment from Bertie Ahern literally rip the party up in two

The party is not split in two. It is split 80/20. I think this is healthy, if they agreed on everything they would be a cult.

crybaby wrote:

and anyone could have seen the rift was there from way back when they had the conference to decide to make a pact with FG, all they had to do was stand by themselves for this election and then make the decision

That didn't work in 2002 and it wouldn't work in 2007. Labour needs to distance themselves from FF if they are ever to get their support back. One of the reasons for aligning themselves with the second biggest party was to convey that message.

Deleted User wrote:

A Coalition that should be proffered as a valid choice at some stage has to be FF/FG. Frankly I'd much rather that than seeing the two main parties always trying to eye up someone from the fringe for a dance...

:eek:

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

So you are saying


FF will still be in government after the G.E.

Yeah I am its very unlikely that Kenny will be Taoiseach.

The rainbow won't have the numbers to form a government.

And I never said they would.

Labour will go with FF.

I wouldn't be too sure of that I don't think the PD's can be written off just yet.

Have you anything of substance to add or are you just looking for a pantomine style "Yes, they will"/"Oh no they won't" style discussion?

I'm just giving my opinion on the topic of the thread.

About the only interesting/new thing you said above is that Bertie will have a state car when he retires. You are quite right, I forgot that.

Also, Pat Rabbitte already has been in government. He was junior minister 1994-1997.

Well this time around its very likely to be the position of Tanaiste.

InFront

You think FG will lose but Rabitte is likely to be Tanaiste and yet you're iffy about whether Labour will go in with Fianna Fail???

Chakar

InFront wrote:

You think FG will lose but Rabitte is likely to be Tanaiste and yet you're iffy about whether Labour will go in with Fianna Fail???

You misunderstand me if Labour goes in government Rabbitte will be a Tanaiste that much is clear.

However if there is a hung Dail then Labour will form a government with Fianna Fail although I would prefer the Progressive Democrats.

ballooba

Chakar wrote:

I'm just giving my opinion on the topic of the thread.

The points you have made were already made on this thread. They were already countered. Have you anything to add to the thread?

Dontico

ballooba wrote:

The Treaty was signed! Are you questioning that?

Fine Gael is not a 32 county party, they have no representatives in the 6 counties. Neither do Fianna Fail.

no never said that. signing of the treaty of the treaty was a good thing. the ciivl war was not.

FG is in favour of a united ireland. never said they had politicians on the other side of the border.

ballooba

Dontico wrote:

no never said that. signing of the treaty of the treaty was a good thing. the ciivl war was not.

FG is in favour of a united ireland. never said they had politicians on the other side of the border.

You seem to have missed the point. I'll remind you.