Rabbite signals FF Coalition possible...

Voipjunkie

Personally I will not vote for Labour if the only option is that they resurrect FG

I have no interest in seeing FF replaced with FG there is no difference between them.

What the Labour party should be trying to do is finish off the hang over from the civil war force FG into FF or out of existence all together. Instead they are trying to make FG and Enda look like serious opposition which they are clearly not.

Tying the Labour Party to the conservative FG has in my opinion limited the appeal and the policy platform of the Labour party in trying to make sure that they both agree with each other they seem to be falling between the two stolls and pleasing no one.


For what it is worth I think this is a non story I presume even the most zealot anti FFers in the Labour Party could be swayed into going into coalition with FF if the alternative is a SF/FF goverment and 5 more years on the opposition benches.

InFront

Voipjunkie wrote:

What the Labour party should be trying to do is finish off the hang over from the civil war force FG into FF or out of existence all together.

Basically, you think Labour should negotiate themselves into political oblivion by creating an extremely large one party government that they have nothing to do with?

Flashback to 1922??

Voipjunkie

InFront wrote:

Basically, you think Labour should negotiate themselves into political oblivion by creating an extremely large one party government that they have nothing to do with?

Flashback to 1922??

No they should point out that there is no difference between FF and FG as such they are not an alternative to each other they are more of the same.

If FF and FG were combined I doubt very much that they would be the sum of their parts just as Labour and DL are not the sum of their parts.

All Labour are doing is propping up the status Quo for short term political gain far better to force the 2 conservative parties together than to pretend that one is an alternative to the other.
Until they do that or until FG destroys itself for them they will continue to be a minor party that rarely gets any of its policies introduced but takes the blame from its own electorate for being associated with conservative parties.

Better to spend five more years on the opposition benches than another 80 of two
identical parties pretending to be different.

It is so ridiculous now that FGs only claim to difference is that they are more honest than FF the only reason they are more honest is because they are never in power to be corrupt a quick glance at their antics on Dublin city council during the 70s and 80s shows that they are as corruptible as their first cousins in FF.

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

It is so ridiculous now that FGs only claim to difference is that they are more honest than FF the only reason they are more honest is because they are never in power to be corrupt a quick glance at their antics on Dublin city council during the 70s and 80s shows that they are as corruptible as their first cousins in FF.

This is a very important point for a lot of people, myself included.

FF are a joke. FG have a history of dealing with corruption head-on.

ballooba

Also due to the balance of power in a FG/Lab/Green Coalition, there is more scope for the junior partner(s) to keep tabs on the senior partner.

The PDs have shown themselves recently to be politically impotent. Mickey McD should start wearing a gimp outfit and let Bertie bring him around on a leash.

Even if there is little difference between FF and FG (I disagree btw) then the fact that FF are getting too big for their boots is enough reason to get rid of them.

InFront

Voipjunkie wrote:

No they should point out that there is no difference between FF and FG as such they are not an alternative to each other they are more of the same.
If FF and FG were combined I doubt very much that they would be the sum of their parts just as Labour and DL are not the sum of their parts.

Are you talking about combining the parties or not?

If yes, and taking the current Dáil numbers

FF+FG=111 (a few minor dissidents)
Lab=21

FF are hard enough to beat as it is. Look at their election history since the 1932 election. You'd like to combine that strength with the second biggest political party in the Dáil?
Do you actually think that Labour could have an alternative power base to form a majority in just 5 years?
Why on earth would labour pursue this strategy They could be in government by the end of the year as things are...

partholon

InFront wrote:

Are you talking about combining the parties or not?

If yes, and taking the current Dáil numbers

FF+FG=111 (a few minor dissidents)
Lab=21

FF are hard enough to beat as it is. Look at their election history since the 1932 election. You'd like to combine that strength with the second biggest political party in the Dáil?
Do you actually think that Labour could have an alternative power base to form a majority in just 5 years?
Why on earth would labour pursue this strategy They could be in government by the end of the year as things are...

ya gotta admit though the public would react to a party that had that big a majority. and labour would benefit from that. i understand the allure of power but alot of labour supporters have a problem with enda kenny and FG period and it smell too much like selling your soul

ballooba

partholon wrote:

i understand the allure of power but alot of labour supporters have a problem with enda kenny and FG period and it smell too much like selling your soul

Enda Kenny is a hell of a lot better than Bertie Ahern.

partholon

ballooba wrote:

Enda Kenny is a hell of a lot better than Bertie Ahern.

if only we had proof cause the one enduring image of enda kenny to me is him falling off the edge of the planet for two months over the rossport 5 affair including going into hiding for 7 hours when the wives turned up in his constituancy office and called the gardai on em to get em out. hes the elected rep of mayo with the biggest story in his area in his lap and he cant capitalise on it or even spin it well. not a good sign

Voipjunkie

InFront wrote:

Are you talking about combining the parties or not?

If yes, and taking the current Dáil numbers

FF+FG=111 (a few minor dissidents)
Lab=21

FF are hard enough to beat as it is. Look at their election history since the 1932 election. You'd like to combine that strength with the second biggest political party in the Dáil?
Do you actually think that Labour could have an alternative power base to form a majority in just 5 years?
Why on earth would labour pursue this strategy They could be in government by the end of the year as things are...

Perhaps you missed the point FF and FG together would not be the sum of their parts.
111 seats is exactly my point we have 111 deputies out of 166 who have little if anything between them. The Labour party is by default supporting the notion that FG are an alternative to FF.
I can not think of one issue that divides them and we all know that FG opposes FF but does the exact same in power as them.
For example FF brings in individualisation FG opposes it but we all know that if FG were in power they would have done the exact same thing and FF would have opposed it as being anti family.

Yes Labour could be the majority party in Government in 5 years time if they stopped propping up FG and stepped out of the shadow of a pre election pact with a conservative party and started acting as an opposition as Dick Spring did in the late 80s early nineties.
The mistake then was to go into power with FF not because they should have gone in with FG but because at the time they were the opposition they should have made FF and FG formalise the tallaght strategy.

Being in power later this year is the kind short term vision that has plagued the Labour party for decades
Power now (but not real power) and punishment at the polls the next time as they fail to deliver because they are a minor partner to a conservative party.

If labour continue to take that short term view then they doom themselves to repeat the last 8 decades and will continue to be a minor party and hand the working class disaffected vote to SF and independents while the greens eat into their vote on the middle class side.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

This is a very important point for a lot of people, myself included.

FF are a joke. FG have a history of dealing with corruption head-on.

When ???? Only when the tribunals beat them over the head with it.

The reason that FF has more corruption is because they spen far more time in power it is a lot harder to be corrupt on the opposition benches.
As I said look at how FG behaved on Dublin City Council and it will show you that they are every bit as bad as FF given the chance.

Voipjunkie

partholon wrote:

if only we had proof cause the one enduring image of enda kenny to me is him falling off the edge of the planet for two months over the rossport 5 affair including going into hiding for 7 hours when the wives turned up in his constituancy office and called the gardai on em to get em out. hes the elected rep of mayo with the biggest story in his area in his lap and he cant capitalise on it or even spin it well. not a good sign

Not to mention the complete failure to land a punch on Bertie when he was caught taking back handers (loans or Gifts)

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

When ???? Only when the tribunals beat them over the head with it.

Lowry was forced to resign from cabinet. He was told he could not stand at next election. It's a hell of a lot more than Fianna Fail ever did.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

Lowry was forced to resign from cabinet. He was told he could not stand at next election. It's a hell of a lot more than Fianna Fail ever did.

Ray Burke was forced to resign from cabinet and never stood again for FF unlike Lowry who is still a TD that supports FG and who John Bruton put out feelers on bringing back into the fold. After all they will be best Friends forever.

Dontico

Voipjunkie wrote:

It is so ridiculous now that FGs only claim to difference is that they are more honest than FF the only reason they are more honest is because they are never in power to be corrupt a quick glance at their antics on Dublin city council during the 70s and 80s shows that they are as corruptible as their first cousins in FF.

never in power?

Voipjunkie

Dontico wrote:

never in power?

Sorry rarely

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

Ray Burke was forced to resign from cabinet and never stood again for FF unlike Lowry who is still a TD that supports FG and who John Bruton put out feelers on bringing back into the fold. After all they will be best Friends forever.

Whether Michael Lowry stands for election or not is his own business. He is not a member of Fine Gael. Ray Burke could have equally done the same as an independent.

John Bruton is not Fine Gael. Maybe John feels that Michael was a loss to the party. Some say Michael could have been leader of the party. The difference is we won't run with a leader who is compromised, unlike Fianna Fail.

Voipjunkie

ballooba wrote:

Whether Michael Lowry stands for election or not is his own business. He is not a member of Fine Gael. Ray Burke could have equally done the same as an independent.

John Bruton is not Fine Gael. Maybe John feels that Michael was a loss to the party. Some say Michael could have been leader of the party. The difference is we won't run with a leader who is compromised, unlike Fianna Fail.

Personally Brutons kite flying for Lowry not to mention his defence of him on his resignation comprised him.

Not to mention the last leaders treatment of the Hep C cases which in my opinion compromised him in a far greater way than Berties back handers.

Again you miss the point we do not know how FG would react if it turned out enda has his own paddy the plasterer as it has not happened yet. But what we can say is that given the oppurtunity FG are as good at the corruption thing as FF.

Look at the current situation in Clare a junior minister looking for the early release of child rapist. FG can say nothing because one of their own did the exact same thing and Labour can say nothing because they are hogg tied to FG. What should be a resignation matter is met with silence by the opposition.

IMO this form of corrupting the justice system and seeking the release of people who have been before the courts and convicted is as if not more important that Berties "loans" but FG have demonstrated themselves to be as corrupt as FF in this field as well and Labour who we might turn to for some leadership are compromised by a deal with the corrupt.

ballooba

Voipjunkie wrote:

Again you miss the point we do not know how FG would react if it turned out enda has his own paddy the plasterer as it has not happened yet. But what we can say is that given the oppurtunity FG are as good at the corruption thing as FF.

The issue of the FG councillors came to light because it emerged that John Bruton had called a meeting in 1993 to try and deal with the problem.

Voipjunkie wrote:

Look at the current situation in Clare a junior minister looking for the early release of child rapist. FG can say nothing because one of their own did the exact same thing and Labour can say nothing because they are hogg tied to FG. What should be a resignation matter is met with silence by the opposition.

The key difference there is that the FG TD took responsibility for his own actions. Tony Killeen is fobbing the blame off to his constituency office workers.

Dontico

Voipjunkie wrote:

Sorry rarely

oh ok lets just vote FF cause they get in most of the time. dont bother vote for anyone other FG or FF cause they have never been in charge.:rolleyes:

serious note. vote fine gael.

InFront

Voipjunkie wrote:

Ray Burke was forced to resign from cabinet and never stood again for FF unlike Lowry who is still a TD that supports FG and who John Bruton put out feelers on bringing back into the fold. After all they will be best Friends forever.

Hang on... what did the party say a few weeks ago about accepting Lowry's support in the event of a minority government, do you remember or do you want to be reminded?

Voipjunkie

Dontico wrote:

oh ok lets just vote FF cause they get in most of the time. dont bother vote for anyone other FG or FF cause they have never been in charge.:rolleyes:

serious note. vote fine gael.

That is not what I said

I said FG have had less opportunity to be corrupt.

IMO there is no significant difference between FG and FF so if you want a change vote for someone else Unfortunately Labour are tying themselves to FG and as such are not offering a real alternative to FF.

Voipjunkie

InFront wrote:

Hang on... what did the party say a few weeks ago about accepting Lowry's support in the event of a minority government, do you remember or do you want to be reminded?

And we all know that FG can not stop Lowry or anyone else voting in support of Enda for Taoiseach we also know that Lowry is a blueshirt to the core and will vote FG just as Beverly will vote FF.
The pretence that Enda is not going to accept Lowry support is a joke they know what way lowry is going to vote and when they do their calculations after the election they will include lowry as one of theirs because that is the reality of the situation.

InFront

Well FG have come out and said they will go into opposition instead of taking support from Lowry if the coalition is dependent on his support, so your suggestion to the contrary doesn't really have any basis.

The suggestion that a party will do the precise opposite of what they have said they will do on their first day in government is ridiculous. You can't just oppose a party because you think they will do the opposite of what they promise, or what would be the point of having an election manifesto?
In that scenario, you might as well vote for the parties with the worst policies.

Oh wait...:)

ballooba

InFront wrote:

The suggestion that a party will do the precise opposite of what they have said they will do on their first day in government is ridiculous. You can't just oppose a party because you think they will do the opposite of what they promise, or what would be the point of having an election manifesto?

Unless it's Fianna Fail.

If Bertie Ahern promised to keep breathing I wouldn't believe him.

Voipjunkie

InFront wrote:

Well FG have come out and said they will go into opposition instead of taking support from Lowry if the coalition is dependent on his support, so your suggestion to the contrary doesn't really have any basis.

The suggestion that a party will do the precise opposite of what they have said they will do on their first day in government is ridiculous. You can't just oppose a party because you think they will do the opposite of what they promise, or what would be the point of having an election manifesto?
In that scenario, you might as well vote for the parties with the worst policies.

Oh wait...:)

No this is what he said

MICHAEL Lowry's support will not be sought by Enda Kenny to form a Government.

In a blistering attack on Taoiseach Bertie Ahern's ethics, the Fine Gael leader contrasted his party's handling of disgraced former Cabinet minister Mr Lowry with Fianna Fail's standards.

"If I went to Manchester and took ten thousand for personal use, I'd be out of a job as leader by lunchtime," he said.

Mr Kenny said that even if he needs the backing of Independent TDs to form a Government, he won't seek the vote of Mr Lowry, an Independent in Tipperary North.

"I'm not going to look for Michael Lowry's support. I can't control any individual member in the way they vote. Obviously, numbers stack up, proposals are made for Taoiseach and people vote on it. But I won't be looking for Michael Lowry's support," he said.

Tribunal

The Fine Gael leader also said he was not worried about when the tribunal report into the activities of his former Cabinet colleague was published.

Following the Moriarty Tribunal's report into Charles Haughey, the report into Mr Lowry is now due amid speculation it will be highly damaging to Fine Gael.

Voters needed to look at the difference between the values and standards applied by Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, added Mr Kenny.

"Michael Lowry was a member of the Fine Gael party and was a Government minister. And he was gone from the party and had to resign within 48 hours, which is a very different kind of standard than applied by Fianna Fail. "But Fianna Fail hung on to their people. Did the Taoiseach not say that Ray Burke was a decent man hounded out office? I really do think people would want to examine values and sets of standards here."

Notice that he says they can not control what Lowry does but they will not be seeking his support.
They will not be seeking it because they already have it just as Ahern will not be seeking Bevs vote because he does not have to no way Bev is going to vote for Enda no way Lowry is going to vote for Bertie.

perhaps you would post a link to where Enda said he would go to the opposition benches rather than take Lowrys support

ballooba

Bertie Ahern said as much regarding Sinn Fein:

Bertie Ahern wrote:

I don't think it would be reasonable for somebody to go in and say that you wouldn't take support from a party. We will not in Fianna Fail enter into coalition discussions, or a pact with Sinn Fein. We will not go into a formal pact either within government or outside government.

Dontico

"If I went to Manchester and took ten thousand for personal use, I'd be out of a job as leader by lunchtime,"- Enda Kenny.

for those who keep posting saying "what the difference between FF and FG".
there is a pretty big one.

InFront

Voipjunkie wrote:

Notice that he says they can not control what Lowry does but they will not be seeking his support.
They will not be seeking it because they already have it just as Ahern will not be seeking Bevs vote because he does not have to no way Bev is going to vote for Enda no way Lowry is going to vote for Bertie.

Indeed, I stand corrected on that point. It seems I picked it up completely backwards.