Am I banned from Paranormal?

Owen

It seems I can't access the Paranomal Forum. I posted a bit of a sarcastic ditty today in the thread, but one based on scientific facts, as opposed to "I know x exists because I just know it". Am I banned, and if I am, are we in a situation now on boards where healthy debate is censored?

There's a reason the Paranormal forum is in rec, and not sci, it's personal opinions that count when discussing the threads there. Could the mod responsible please PM me. It would have been pleasant to have received a PM at the time of bannination too.

:rolleyes:

aidan_walsh

And now turn to your hymnsheets, page 57 for "PM the Moderator".

Owen

Wouldn't it be a marvellous thing if I could access the forum to see who the Mod , or Mods, are? Not only that, but it would be even better again if there's more than one, to know who it is.

If I ran my Forum the way this one is run with arbritary bans without discussion and education first, it wouldn't be long before it was a ghost town.

Faith

Yup, you were banned by Thanx 4 The Fish here.

/edit: If you log out, you can view the forum.

Owen

Thanks Faith. I'm so amazed by this. Really and truly. I'll PM the mod concerned, and post the results in this thread for logical, and open dicsussion. Is there not a procedure in place that the Mod must PM a user when taking an action like this?

I do on my site, it's only common courtesy.

Faith

It's up to the mod. I would think it's good practice, but I suppose if it's a busy forum with a lot of bannings, it can be time consuming.

monkeyfudge

Did you read the charter on the paranormal forum?

It's hard to form an opinion on this as your post has been edited... that kind of makes it hard for other people not to make the same mistake in future.

Owen

Monkeyfudge, thanks for the advice. There was nothing whatsoever demeening in my post, nothing targetted at any users, it was simple debate. The posters in the thread were convinced Banshee's existed, only chased 5 families, and would kill anyone who took their combs. I offered lively debate, provided a youtube clip of a cat screaming that sounded extremely Banshee-like, and pointed out the lack of logic behind a creature who's sole purpose was to take 5 (And only 5 ) families into the afterlife, and comb it's hair, while screaming.

The whole thing was a tongue-in-cheek post, but not rude, or overbearing. It was a bit OTT I think to be banned (But then again, who doesn't say that who's been banned, eh?). I'm just flabberghasted, as an admin of 2 sites similar to boards in terms of charters and activity, I'm convinced I broke no rules - unless sarcasm is now a crime worthy of eviction.

Here's the PM I sent to Thanks 4 The Fish, for the record, I will post the response here also. Basic users of boards deserve to know the motives behind rash bans.

Hello,

I'm extremely curious to know the reason you banned me from the Paranormal Forum. Has it come to a point on boards where open and logical discussion is frowned upon? The very last time I checked, Paranormal was in the Rec category, because it's not a Scientific subject. Therefore you, I, and my pet Goldfish are all entitled to discuss it as we see fit. Just because my point of view doesn't fit in with yours, doesn't mean it's not of merit either.

I'm guessing you've more or less banned me due to my exhuberant sense of sarcasm? I banned people from the sites I run because they had the 'nerve' to use some sarcasm in a post, they'd quickly become stagnant, and empty.

It is unacceptable, unreasonable, and above all, the height of bad manners for you to ban me without discussing my post first. I would have gladly edited it if you had a strong issue with it. I would have expected you to PM me before the ban to discuss the motivation behind my post, and if you felt it necessary, to PM me when you had completed the explusion process. That's basic courtesy.

I've been online since 92, and this is the very first time I've been banned from any Forum. I'm still not sure what to make of it, but I hope your response is more justified than your hasty actions.

Ruu_Old

It is generally frowned upon and just bad form really to post up PMs that were sent to you without the consent of, in this case, TFTF. Just so you know, not trying to be smart. Wait for his reply first and see what he says.

Owen

Well bugger it, I logged out and logged back in again. I got to read the Forum and saw this excellent post by Stevenmu :

Ned, this forum is discussing the paranormal, in all it's aspects. Unless you have strong evidence to support a position that the banshee does not exist and is "stupid", then don't make such claims here. If you wish to continue posting here, please read the charter.

See? That's helpful. What's bizarre is that another user in the same Forum took the same point of view as mine, and yet wasn't banned. Surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander? Here's faceman's post from the same thread :

Its just of all paranormal stories, i find the tail of the banshee most flawed. Although i have had quite a few supernatural experiences, i just have yet to be convinced on this one.

So, it's primarily my mistake for not reading the Charter. It clearly states that you're not allowed to argue that Parnormal Studies are without scientific merit. My bad. But wouldn't open discussion have been a better solution than a ban?

The_Minister

Ruu wrote:

It is generally frowned upon and just bad form really to post up PMs that were sent to you without the consent of, in this case, TFTF. Just so you know, not trying to be smart. Wait for his reply first and see what he says.

He's posting up a PM that he sent. That's OK, as it does not contain any quotes or references to a PM from another user.


OP, I think that it sorta works like the Islam forum, or the LGBT forum. It's where they discuss their issues, in the way that they like, without having to answer for their beliefs/life-style. If I was mod of Islam, and you set up a thread questioning if Mohomad (sp?) existed, then I would give you short shrift. Their beliefs may seem unreasonable, even infantile, but I would view their forum as their own little playground, where they do not have to constantly justify their belief in whatever creature they believe in.
EDIT: Just saw your post, I didn't realise that it was in the charter itself.

Owen

Ruu wrote:

It is generally frowned upon and just bad form really to post up PMs that were sent to you without the consent of, in this case, TFTF. Just so you know, not trying to be smart. Wait for his reply first and see what he says.

Ruu, can you answer a question for me? Is there a charter the Mods all have to follow themselves? Or is it a case that Mods operate freely? Mods should by right, be compelled to edit a person's post, PM them to point out their errors, and resolve the issue amicably. What we have now is a situation whereby people are banned arbitrarily, without an educational step inbetween. That's counter-productive. And if time is the issue with Mod's working on a voluntary basis, then more Mods are clearly necessary.

Here's a part of the PM I received back from Thanks 4 The Fish was quite insulting, and obviously not even remotely open to the concept of resolution. There is nothing but negativity in that PM, and that's completely unacceptable, if you sign up to do a job, you do it to the best of your ability, or you should bow out gracefully.

Owen

The_Minister wrote:

OP, I think that it sorta works like the Islam forum, or the LGBT forum. It's where they discuss their issues, in the way that they like, without having to answer for their beliefs/life-style. If I was mod of Islam, and you set up a thread questioning if Mohomad (sp?) existed, then I would give you short shrift. Their beliefs may seem unreasonable, even infantile, but I would view their forum as their own little playground, where they do not have to constantly justify their belief in whatever creature they believe in.

I agree with your sentiment, and think what you say is justified. I know I've done wrong, and I openly put my hands up and admit it. I'm just stunned by the fact that the process is so child like in concept. Banning has no postitive result. There must be a growth process inbetween.

Ruu_Old

The_Minister wrote:

He's posting up a PM that he sent. That's OK, as it does not contain any quotes or references to a PM from another user.

I was posting it for the benefit of ned78 because he mentioned that he would be posting when TFTF replied.
ned78, there are guidelines for moderators to follow alright.

The_Minister

Ruu wrote:

I was posting it for the benefit of ned78 because he mentioned that he would be posting when TFTF replied.
ned78, there are guidelines for moderators to follow alright.

Sorry, I missed that bit. He posted an little quote from the PM here so you were right to warn him.*





*Hint, hint OP.

EDIT:

ned78 wrote:

Originally Posted by ned78
Quote:
the banshee can only cry for five major Irish families: the O'Neills, the O'Briens, the O'Connors, the O'Gradys and the Kavanaghs. Intermarriage has since extended this select list.


The Banshee has obviously taken a Degree in Geneology, and has a DNA testing lab back in Banshee land. Do you people really believe this fairytale? This is from an wildly superstitious and stupid era in Ireland.

The same era where my Great Grandparents used to go to a fairy fort near out farm - this is just a muddy part of a field with mouse holes, they believed if you stuck a stick into the hole, a fairy would try to grab onto it, when in reality, it was just the stick getting stuck in the hole.

Ireland's grown up. We don't believe in the Children of Lir, Lynchy with his Asses Ears, or Banshees. There are explanations for everything. Which is more logical? Burger the screaming cat in a field somewhere :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z_3EZWkM1c

Or a 'creature' who's sole existance is to comb her hair, chase after someone who takes the comb, see only 5 families into the afterlife, and can only wail. I mean seriously. Cmon. Banshee's were invented down the local a few hundred years back after a serious feed of Porter, and deep down, you all know it.

This is your original post. You were rude, blunt, and condescending. My sympathy for you has evaporated.

Owen

The_Minister wrote:

This is your original post. You were rude, blunt, and condescending. My sympathy for you has evaporated.

We've been over this The_Minister. I didn't realise the Charter of the Forum didn't allow debate, sarcastic, cynical, or otherwise. If the good people of the Paranormal Forum posted anything like the Banshee over on Fark, they'd be decimated with much more sarcasm in minutes, I suppose I should have thrown in the odd smiley to show my sarcasm - it wasn't a direct attempt at winding up users of the Forum.

I've put my hands up, I've said I'm wrong, and if I had the ability, I'd apologise in the Forum. It's the right thing to do, n'est-pas?

I'm just fundamentally opposed to the process used to invoke the Ban. And whether or not my access is restored (I hope it is, purely on the principal of the thing, other than my apology, I won't be posting in Paranormal again), I will be creating a thread where the Ban process is debated, and hopefully, healthily debated.

Thanx 4 The Fish

You broke the rules. You did not read the charter. You are banned.

That is the long and short of it.

Will your healthy debate about also have a section specifically devoted to people who are too lazy to read a charter before posting in a forum they have not used before and then using their ignorance as an excuse ? You still missed the point of the paranormal forum if you (as you maintain) have read the charter you would be well aware that being sarcastic/sticking in smilies/any of the rest of the methods you could use to demean the thread will get you a ban.

The bit that probably should have given it away is "There will be a zero-tolerance policy enforced on these rules."

Owen

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

You broke the rules. You did not read the charter. You are banned.

That is the long and short of it.

Will your healthy debate about also have a section specifically devoted to people who are too lazy to read a charter before posting in a forum they have not used before and then using their ignorance as an excuse ? You still missed the point of the paranormal forum if you (as you maintain) have read the charter you would be well aware that being sarcastic/sticking in smilies/any of the rest of the methods you could use to demean the thread will get you a ban.

The bit that probably should have given it away is "There will be a zero-tolerance policy enforced on these rules."

I'm delighted and thrilled to see you're still on your little power trip. I have offered on this thread to enter the Paranormal Forum and apologise for not reading the Charter. Obviously, if my making ammends is not something you're open to, then you're a littler person than I first imagined.

To answer your question, no. My thread will not be about discussing the mistakes users make, it will be to discuss the blatant arrogance, and rudeness exhibited by a small number of Mods, and it will praise the ones who make the effort. I truly hope someday you join the latter, and not the former.

Gary ITR

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

You broke the rules. You did not read the charter. You are banned.

Ned isn't disputing the fact that he should or should not have been banned. Just the above should have been stuck into a PM and sent to him

GuanYin

What T4TF said.

You could easily have made your points and discussion in a mature, respectful way that did not break forum charter.

Instead you decided to not bother with the rules and imply that the "notions" of the people in the forum were "stupid" and needed to grow up and also sober up, it seems.

You're banned because, if my suspicions are correct, you waded in without actually reading the forum charter (and hence rules).

As far as your debate on the ban process goes, it only applies to people who disregard the forum rules.

In not reading or not following the charter, you decided to dispense with the forum rules and hence you got banned.

If you had, like 90% of the people who post in paranormal, actually respected the forum rules, you wouldn't have gotten banned.

Had your post been mildly in breach of the charter, you may have gotten a nudge.

Instead you posted a rude, insulting post aimed broadly at our forum posters. We're not psychic (well, maybe stevenmu is) so we're not to know whether you're just someone who didn't know the rules or someone who is being an ass. Honestly, I don't see why, when someone posts as you did, we should be asked to investigate and spend our good time ascertaining which you are, when you didn't bother taking the 2 minutes to read and assimilate the rules.

There is only one person at fault for you being banned. You.

You will serve your forum ban at T4TF's discretion unless and admin says otherwise.

Owen

psi wrote:

Honestly, I don't see why, when someone posts as you did, we should be asked to investigate and spend our good time ascertaining which you are, when you didn't bother taking the 2 minutes to read and assimilate the rules.

Jesus H Christ. For the 4th time in this thread ... I am offering to apologise! When you signed up as a Mod, you did get some responsibilities. They include answering to users.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Delighted and thrilled, I am glad that I can evoke such feelings in you.

I am not on any power trip. You broke the rules, there is a zero tolerance rule on the Paranormal forum. You broke it. It was your fault. You were banned.

I will pass on your apologies to the paranormal forum as a whole, will that make you feel better ?

You came on with the express intention of mocking the paranormal community. You got your cheap shot in. You will not have another opportunity to.

I still fail to see how my banning you for ignoring the rules in place on a forum is arrogant but I am sure you will enlighten me.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

I'm delighted and thrilled to see you're still on your little power trip. I have offered on this thread to enter the Paranormal Forum and apologise for not reading the Charter. Obviously, if my making ammends is not something you're open to, then you're a littler person than I first imagined.

If we do that, then why have rules? If anyone who breaks a rule can just say sorry and have it all forgotten, how do we enforce anything?

You make amends by serving your ban and accepting you deserved it.

Incidently, insulting any of us, doesn't convince me you're in any way sincere about taking responsibility for your actions.

To answer your question, no. My thread will not be about discussing the mistakes users make, it will be to discuss the blatant arrogance, and rudeness exhibited by a small number of Mods, and it will praise the ones who make the effort. I truly hope someday you join the latter, and not the former.

What about users who are too lazy to read rules and then blame everyone else for their mistake? Will it discuss those?

Owen

psi wrote:

What about users who are too lazy to read rules and then blame everyone else for their mistake? Will it discuss those?

No, because it's a thread about Mods. Feel free to set up one about users

Owen

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

I am not on any power trip. You broke the rules, there is a zero tolerance rule on the Paranormal forum. You broke it. It was your fault. You were banned.

No, of course your'e not on a power trip. You refuse the option for me to apologise, and you post the above stream of consciousness in short abrupt sentences.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

I will pass on your apologies to the paranormal forum as a whole, will that make you feel better ?

Yes indeed it would.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

You came on with the express intention of mocking the paranormal community. You got your cheap shot in. You will not have another opportunity to.

Yes I did. And I've admitted as much. 10 out of 10 for pointing out the obvious. I've also tried to make ammends and learn from my mistake. It's the most anyone can do.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

I still fail to see how my banning you for ignoring the rules in place on a forum is arrogant but I am sure you will enlighten me.

If ever there was an award for missing the point, you'd be a shoe in. The ban wasn't the issue. The lack of communication, education, resolution, and opportunity for harmony was. You have the management skills of a McDonald's trainee.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

Jesus H Christ. For the 4th time in this thread ... I am offering to apologise! When you signed up as a Mod, you did get some responsibilities. They include answering to users.

Your apology is accepted, you'll still serve your ban for breaking the rules.

We're not going to arbitrarily decide who gets off cos they said "sowwwwy" and who doesn't. You get treated like anyone else who posts like you did.

You broke the rules, it carries a consequence. The only thing that seems to be in doubt now is whether your apology is actually worth anything if you think that it somehow invalidates the rule that got you banned to begin with.

You've been answered, you just haven't accepted it.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

If ever there was an award for missing the point, you'd be a shoe in. The ban wasn't the issue. The lack of communication, education, resolution, and opportunity for harmony was. You have the management skills of a McDonald's trainee.

In light of this, I'm making your ban permanent - I don't believe you have any intent or sincerity in your apology, you're just using this as an exercise in oneupmanship and pettiness so you can get a little revenge for your perceived indignity of being banned.

As with precidents already set (and which I'll admit I disagreed with at the time), abusing a moderator while contesting a ban can merit such action.

There now, you've been properly communicated with

Owen

psi wrote:

You've been answered, you just haven't accepted it.

No, I've just received your answer. And TFTF's one too. Neither of which I agree with. But hey, that's what makes the world go 'round.

Owen

psi wrote:

you're just using this as an exercise in oneupmanship and pettiness

If ever there was a case of the Pot calling the Kettle Black. So, under what exact criteria did you ban me permenantly from Paranormal? Because posting in this thread has nothing to do with me breaking the charter of the Paranormal forum. Now if that isn't an abuse of rank, I don't know what is. You two can't even handle debate without having to resort to measure like ths. It's perfectly okay for you to, to put me down, but not okay for me to fight my corner? Sounds a little Orwellian to me.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

If ever there was a case of the Pot calling the Kettle Black. So, under what exact criteria did you ban me permenantly from Paranormal? Because posting in this thread has nothing to do with me breaking the charter of the Paranormal forum. Now if that isn't an abuse of rank, I don't know what is. You two can't even handle debate without having to resort to measure like ths. It's perfectly okay for you to, to put me down, but not okay for me to fight my corner? Sounds a little Orwellian to me.

Well to be honest, I don't know that you weren't perm banned by T4TF, but take it as moderator consensus that your post and your continued insults means that none of us are going to lift then ban.

I'm bowing out here. You have your answer - you reap what you sow buddy.

Owen

psi wrote:

Well to be honest, I don't know that you weren't perm banned by T4TF, but take it as moderator consensus that your post and your continued insults means that none of us are going to lift then ban.

I'm bowing out here. You have your answer - you reap what you sow buddy.

Well, geuinely Psi, I do appreciate your posts and insight. And I genuinely am apologetic for my post. I enjoy winding up people, in real life, and on boards, but in the best of spirit. Lively debate is what makes for a great website, and my oversight of not reading the charter has made a mess.

Inability to back down has for others made a larger mess, but perhaps we should just move on.