Ban Process - the big debate!

Owen

Gordon wrote:

But this isn't a business. It's a privately owned website.

Isn't it boards.ie ltd? That's the reference used by mods when they're worried about posts causing legal action from various companies, eg, the MCD fiasco.

That's not the point though. My point is that for a site to be, and stay successful, it must view itself as a business, which each user as a customer (A freeloading, time consuming, and demanding customer) - from a philisophical point of view. And when you see it that way, even 1 disgruntled user can be a monumental failure.

Think of it this way, you're down the pub with your mates at night, discussing sites you spend time on. If you're happy with a website, you might tell 1 person, if you're unhappy, you'll tell 20.

kaimera

ned78 wrote:

Something I would agree with. Each case should be looked at individually. If someone isn't an obvious troll, Mods should go to the trouble of looking at their previous posts for a minute or two before rushing to a decision. It would still be beneficial if they had a framework to work off of.

So now you're agreeing with the approach we make?

Nowhere on the thread was it said we didn't take every case individually.

Think of it this way, you're down the pub with your mates at night, discussing sites you spend time on. If you're happy with a website, you might tell 1 person, if you're unhappy, you'll tell 20.

It would be more like I'd tell 20+ people about the great site I found, and bitch to my close friends about the crappy one.

Owen

psi wrote:

That is your opinion (on the managing) - and lets not try fool anyone here, the only reason you have brought up this "issue" is because of your banning.

When did I even dispute this Psi? I even stated CLEARLY on the "Am I banned from Paranormal?" thread that I would start this thread on that basis. :rolleyes:

Owen

kaimera wrote:

So now you're agreeing with the approach we make?

No. I'm agreeing with the approach the more sensible, and seasoned Mods make. The Mods who think themselves above users I will never agree with.

kaimera

ned78 wrote:

No. I'm agreeing with the approach the more sensible, and seasoned Mods make. The Mods who think themselves above users I will never agree with.

Fine and dandy.

An example of such a mod would be nice, unless this is just a 'fight the power' thread of which Feedback has seen many a time.

As been said more than once, warn, temp, perm but you seem to be hung up on the times where there's no warning, no PM, of which there are times when it may be applicable for the mod to do neither.

Janitors I do believe mods have been likened to.

Now picture a janitor mopping a floor, and leaving nice easy-to-read signs, clearly marked "wet floor" where it's wet. Along comes someone, pays no heed to the sign, and falls flat on his/her arse.

Janitors fault? Should he/she apologise in your opinion? Should he write a letter to exlain why the person fell in the first place?

or does the onus like with the person to read the signs and act accordingly?

Owen

kaimera wrote:

An example of such a mod would be nice, unless this is just a 'fight the power' thread of which Feedback has seen many a time.

If you read my first post, you'll see I clearly name Faith, Rymus, Thaedydal, and Ruu. I'll add Gordon to that list now after reading his posts too.

mad m

Just a thing I want to put across to someone that might know. Its seems like a longtime since I registered but not compared to others I suppose. I dont know whats the procedure to register in todays terms,but is there some sort of box that could be added like *read this now before clicking* etc. Like when you book tickets for well known airline,you have to click that bloody box or you wont be able to go further down the process.

I know most don't read the T&C, but I do these days because that small print can hurt down the line. So what I'm trying to say is to make new members read *how to and not to* post on boards. I know we have the stickys but I rarely read them. And they are updated as boards moves through space almost daily these days. As it was said earlier,we are trusted in what we say on boards because we are deemed to be all adults(Mods not included:D )
But some members do come out with some $hite.

God I'm lost now....Ah you know what I mean...:)

Just to the mods,some of the comments on the banlist cracked me up.Bravo.

kaimera

ned78 wrote:

If you read my first post, you'll see I clearly name Faith, Rymus, Thaedydal, and Ruu. I'll add Gordon to that list now after reading his posts too.

I was referring to the other type of mod you mentioned.

and those names I don't recall being there when I read the thread initially..

Owen

mad m wrote:

I dont know whats the procedure to register in todays terms,but is there some sort of box that could be added like *read this now before clicking* etc.

An excellent idea. There should be some sort of a document mailed with the registration info.

Owen

kaimera wrote:

I was referring to the other type of mod you mentioned.

and those names I don't recall being there when I read the thread initially..

You'll see quite clearly the 1st post was last editied at 21:06, about a minute after I originally posted it. So the names weren't added recently, if that's what you're implying.

And I'm not naming and shaming in this thread either. This isn't a vendetta thread, it's a make boards better thread, no matter how many Mods wish it to be a personal crusade.

kaimera

ned78 wrote:

You'll see quite clearly the 1st post was last editied at 21:06, aobut a minute after I originally posted it. So the names weren't added recently, if that's what you're implying.

And I'm not naming and shaming in this thread either. This isn't a vendetta thread, it's a make boards better thread, no matter how many Mods wish it to be a personal crusade.

OP @ 20.53.
Edit @ 21.06.

I'm just saying I didn't recall seeing names initially. It could be the bifocals I'm wearing. Really need to book that eye exam..

The_Minister

mad m's idea isn't half bad.

User45701

The mods do a good job but when a user and a mod have a difference of opinion on something it can end up with that user having a problem with that mod.

I can only think of one mod and one user who i have a problem with tazzle or taz whatever his name is from CS and louvile (user) and i do hate the 2 of them. Either i got banned or almost got banned from CS when i first joined because of what i considered to be stupid on the part of tazzle, as far as i remember he didn't like how i insisted that holding the house is not camping and it was the object of the game, to hold the house (or something to that effect) It does not matter
MOD's can be wrong they are right almost all of the time but i have seen one or two questionable bans which is what feedback is for (i think)

If you did post something that you yourself said was sarcastic all you needed was a mod in a bad mood or else you posted more than just something sarcastic.

Banning someone for sarcasm does sound a bit strange...

nesf

ned78 wrote:

An excellent idea. There should be some sort of a document mailed with the registration info.

The problem is that each forum has different rules, there are only a handful that are common to all forums and they are the 'common sense ones' and rarely broken.

Personally, I think if you stop thinking of moderators as professionals and start thinking of them as volunteers then it's a lot easier to accept. Each forum here isn't a franchise with exactly the same rules, standards and behaviour guaranteed or your money back.

Gordon

ned78 wrote:

If you read my first post, you'll see I clearly name Faith, Rymus, Thaedydal, and Ruu. I'll add Gordon to that list now after reading his posts too.

Might not want to add me to the list there as I sometimes don't PM people when I ban them, and usually I will warn a user on-thread.

The Sweeper

ned78 wrote:

That's not the point though. My point is that for a site to be, and stay successful, it must view itself as a business, which each user as a customer (A freeloading, time consuming, and demanding customer) - from a philisophical point of view. And when you see it that way, even 1 disgruntled user can be a monumental failure.

There are hundreds of fora on boards.ie. Hundreds.

There are hundreds of moderators on boards.ie. Hundreds.

There are tens of thousands of registered users on boards.ie.

And you are one user, with experience of one incident, awareness of a few more incidents, and the ability to name five moderators who you feel are good.

When you have clicked through all of the fora, read all of the forum charters, identified more than 10 moderators and realised that a one in 70,000 rate of disgruntlement is not, in fact, a monumental failure, then you may use the phrase:

Something's rotten in the state of boards.ie!

For now, there's something rotten in the state of ned78.

I agree that moderators should follow the path that Faith has outlined - warning, temporary banning, permanent banning. They should also be consistent in their treatment of users.

But understand this - the moderators who are replying to this thread have discussed moderation at length, on the mod forum, and with other mods. Even out on the beer, at times.

How many other users have you discussed moderation with?
How many in-depth discussions have you had with other users on how it could be done better, before making a representation on behalf of the users of boards.ie on the feedback forum?
How many different opinions have you tried to seek out before making this representation?
How many different methods of moderation have you tried, both practically and in theory, before coming to your conclusions?

...who are you to be making a representation on behalf of me?

6th

Bans are considered and dealt with case by case. I've been banned on 3 occassions and in all 3 cases I received a pm .... probably because my record is 'ok' and my offences were slight.

Now ned I know you said this isnt about your case but it is your only experience of a ban, you said you have never been banned before in your decade of being an internet user.

You've said that you dont ban trolls on your own sites.

You dont read charters and when you post a comment which clearly breaks a charter you cmplain about how you are banned?

Tell me, do you think a mod should take time to PM a user who obviously does not take time to read a charter?

Owen

nesf wrote:

Personally, I think if you stop thinking of moderators as professionals and start thinking of them as volunteers then it's a lot easier to accept. Each forum here isn't a franchise with exactly the same rules, standards and behaviour guaranteed or your money back.

By your Logic, volunteers for, let's say the Homeless should be able to decide who they give soup to, and who they don't. Paid or not, if you sign up to do a job, you should do it to the best of your ability.

Owen

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

How many other users have you discussed moderation with?
How many in-depth discussions have you had with other users on how it could be done better, before making a representation on behalf of the users of boards.ie on the feedback forum?
How many different opinions have you tried to seek out before making this representation?
How many different methods of moderation have you tried, both practically and in theory, before coming to your conclusions?

...who are you to be making a representation on behalf of me?

Well, first of all MAJD, I'm not making representations on behalf of anyone. This thread is for users to make their own representations. I just started the thread, the rest is up to users themselves. And the rest of the questions you ask are dealth with in my very first post. The very point of this thread is to collate user's opinions, and experiences, to forumulate a better method of exacting a ban.

6th

ned78 wrote:

That's not the point though. My point is that for a site to be, and stay successful, it must view itself as a business, which each user as a customer (A freeloading, time consuming, and demanding customer) - from a philisophical point of view. And when you see it that way, even 1 disgruntled user can be a monumental failure.

So are the sites you admin as successful as Boards.ie? NO.

Are they as big as Boards.ie? NO

Are they as busy as Boards.ie? NO


You run your sites differently to Boards.ie and you get different results .... treat YOUR sites like a business and do what works.

You really should be coming on here with a thread called "How can I make my site a success like Boards.ie?"

Owen

6th wrote:

Tell me, do you think a mod should take time to PM a user who obviously does not take time to read a charter?

Yes, yes I do. Unless someone is a repeating troll, you, and your colleagues as Moderators should make an attempt to sort it out amicably. You would be suprised how many issues could be sorted out by a politely worded PM, and not a ban followed by agression, and flexing of 'power'.

Owen

6th wrote:

So are the sites you admin as successful as Boards.ie? NO.
Are they as big as Boards.ie? NO
Are they as busy as Boards.ie? NO
You run your sites differently to Boards.ie and you get different results .... treat YOUR sites like a business and do what works.
You really should be coming on here with a thread called "How can I make my site a success like Boards.ie?"

Oh Bravo. You're really showing your Mettle as a Mod, and as an individual now. So we're resorting to insults, off topic, on a personal level now are we 6th?

My sites are in no way related to the layout, or style of boards, nor have i an interest in starting a boards compeditor, it would be pointless. How dare you insinuate that they are of lesser value. You're a disgrace to boards.

The Hill Billy

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

...who are you to be making a representation on behalf of me?

MAJD - The OP has obviously made a gigantic leap of faith & thinks that you (& me, & everbody else) should actually give a sh!t about their predicament.

OP - Take your ban on the chin. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. This argument has been done to death. I don't have to be pre-cognisant to know that this thread will have no effect on the moderation of the various fora on this site.

6th

You seem to forget that most bans are handed out to make things better for the decent users. Recently a lazy posters posted a comment in a forum I use alot, they didnt read the charter and by posting they offended many users of that forum. So show he talk to the offender or do what is right by the majority of the users?

Owen

6th wrote:

So show he talk to the offender or do what is right by the majority of the users?

They're not mutually exclusive options 6th, if you talk to the offender, resolve the issue , then you are indeed doing what is right by the majority of users.

Talliesin

ned78 wrote:

Is it though ... because in my job, 1 dissatisfied customer is a failure, not a percentage.

1 dissatisfied troublemaker is a result.

Owen

Hill Billy wrote:

MAJD - The OP has obviously made a gigantic leap of faith & thinks that you (& me, & everbody else) should actually give a sh!t about their predicament.

Hill Billy, as per the countless posts above you, this is not about my issue. For the record, if you do read back through the thread, you will indeed see that Mods, and users do indeed give a sh*t about how this process happens, and all agree there's inconsistencies.

6th

ned78 wrote:

Oh Bravo. You're really showing your Mettle as a Mod, and as an individual now. So we're resorting to insults, off topic, on a personal level now are we 6th?

My sites are in no way related to the layout, or style of boards, nor have i an interest in starting a boards compeditor, it would be pointless. How dare you insinuate that they are of lesser value. You're a disgrace to boards.

Actually I am not a mod. I havent resorted to insults at all .. but if you are insulted by what I say thats a different thing altogether.

It obviously means something that you point out about your sites and how you mod them so its fair game for us to mention them.

You come here saying how Boards.ie should do it, but can you not see that Boards is doing ok as it is? In fact its doing better than ok, its growing every day.

This is about your ban and everyone can see it so just admit it.

6th

Of course there are inconsistancies, mods are people not programmes and every user is different ... apart from duplicate accounts

Its like saying there are inconsistancies in the colour of brown hair .... EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME SHADE!!

I'll say it again, this is SOOOOO about you getting banned! If not isnt it a conincidence that you only bother with this after you get banned?

Owen

6th wrote:

This is about your ban and everyone can see it so just admit it.

No, and no matter how many times you try to make it about my ban, it still won't be. The thread in feedback is about my ban, this thread is about the Ban process as it clearly states in the OP.

What's frustrating is users, and Mods trying to make this about my situation, and I wish there was a Mod in here, so they could remove the off topic posts, and return this to a healthy discussion without the attempts at thread hijacking.

Here's the long and the short of it. Mods, by their own admission have admitted in this thread they they do as they please. Other Mods have agreed with me that a warning, temp ban, permenant ban should be the process followed - unless the poster is a repeat offender.

And the point of this thread, is to highlight to SMods, and Admins, that boards would be a better place if something like this was to occur.