Ban Process - the big debate!

6th

The mods also said that alot of the time its just not practical to issue a pm ... but you're just reading the bits you like.

How exactly would boards be better? What would the results be?

delly

Its around about now that I'm missing WWM's input on the topic

Owen

6th wrote:

The mods also said that alot of the time its just not practical to issue a pm ... but you're just reading the bits you like.

I am not 'just reading the bits' I like, I've already addressed this argument - you're just not bothering to read the thread, and are arguing for arguing's sake, but if you feel the need to be indulged, I will indulge you. If the Mods feel they have no time to issue PMs, then they need to request more Mods, or come up with a standard PM they can cut and paste as needed. How time consuming is that?

6th wrote:

How exactly would boards be better? What would the results be?

Well, lets take for example a new user who hasn't read the Charter, after all, he gets no instruction manual with boards, and if he goes to a forum, misses the first thread and proceeds to break the rules, if he gets the wrong Mod, he'll be banned without explanation. He'll come back to see his account revoked in the threads, and potentially won't come back to boards again.

Now lets see the same procedure followed by a Mod who takes the time (All 30 seconds to fire off a cut & paste PM - that's all it has to be, cut and paste) to send a PM, the user learns from their mistake, and can become a more active contributor to boards.

Which is the better scenario?

The Sweeper

ned78 wrote:

Here's the long and the short of it. Mods, by their own admission have admitted in this thread they they do as they please. Other Mods have agreed with me that a warning, temp ban, permenant ban should be the process followed - unless the poster is a repeat offender.

Or unless it's not suitable to treat the user in that way.

This is the point you're not getting.

You don't seem to understand how fruitless it is putting time and energy into dealing with a troll.

Ages ago, when I was a mod, I posted up an exchange between me and a new user who had four posts and was trolling the beer/wine/spirits forum.

I'd love to post it up here again as an example of what you're up against when you bother putting time into a troll, but I'll wait for counsel from other mods about posting PMs on this forum (even though I'm sure that user is gone by now).

6th

But what about the people who have been around for over a year? They know about charters and yet they still dont read charters?

Boards is still growing despite the fact alot of mods dont pm with a ban.

I'm a user just like you, I am one of the people who you say you started this thread for ... but you dont like what I am saying.

DublinWriter

ned78 wrote:

Seriously though, users, if you're out there, chime in!

To be honest ned, it's their party and they can cry if they want to.

Boards is not a publically funded thing (in the tax-payer sense). Their club, their rules, etc.

The Hill Billy

ned78 wrote:

Hill Billy, as per the countless posts above you, this is not about my issue. For the record, if you do read back through the thread, you will indeed see that Mods, and users do indeed give a sh*t about how this process happens, and all agree there's inconsistencies.

Really? Then how come - all of a sudden - "something's rotten in the state of Boards.ie" when, coincidentally, you just happen to have been slapped with a valid ban?
To ask other boards users & mods to believe that you are altruistically questioning how all fora on this site are moderated is insulting.



Admins - I'd like to offer a suggestion for the next upgrade of VB - Include a user-editable setting for [WORLD_TO_REVOLVE_AROUND_{username}] where [{username}'S_CHIPS_PISSED_ON="Y"]

Nevyn

ned78 wrote:

They're not mutually exclusive options 6th, if you talk to the offender, resolve the issue , then you are indeed doing what is right by the majority of users.

Have you any idea the ammount of time arguing with each idiot who has clearly and flagantly broken the rules can take ?

Have you any idea how many of them there are ?

Have you any idea of the ammount of abuse you can get for trying to make them 'conform' ?

If someone slips up and they have been a good contributer to the community that each forum is you will take the time to enguage with the poster and warn them.

If a person who has never posted on the forum and has not taken the time to become part of the community comes along and break the rules then they are to be banned with as far as I am concerned no remorse.

The difference being the well mannered kid from next door who tramples on your roses and scum who come joyriding around housing estates.
Who would you bother in trying to talk to ?

Owen

I really and truly give up.

6th

Good, now go back to posting like you used too ... you're a decent poster and hopefully this wont affect how you do things in future.

muffler

ned78 wrote:

I really and truly give up.

There is a God after all

Evil Phil

Go I do hope I'm not too late. Anyway, as Ned and Gordon have suggested:

1 Warning
2 Temp ban
3 Perm ban.
4 All stages using private messages

This is pretty much the model I follow, with the addition of reporting all bans (temp and permanent) on the moderators forum. This is an important point, we moderators don't go banning willy nilly, we have to report our actions to the Admins. We do however use your boards password to access you email. I am of course only joking about accessing your email*.

Sometimes you just go straight to a permanent ban. For example one user had one post advertising his business on the Outdoor Pursuits forum. This is a direct violation of the rules so I banned him, reported it on the mod forum and he was site banned. Did I send him a pm? No, I didn't see the point. His account wasn't going to last long enough for him to read it. This is quite rare on my forums as I only have one forum with relatively high traffic.

That being said there was an incident a couple of years ago with a commercial company advertising on a forum I used to moderate. I didn't even ban them (which is the usual response) I just deleted the offending text, pm'd them explaining the rules and even included the deleted text in the message. They kicked up so much stink on that forum and here the Admins had to step in. I ended up perm banning two people for that fracas and very nearly quit boards because of it. The support I received from the community convinced me to stay.

Usually I find that people who break the rules are new and a friendly pm sorts the problem out. It's rare that I ban and I don't like doing it. TBH Ned you suggested a good model in your original post and I'm already trying to follow that model. However you do have to understand that for the greater good of the community this model isn't always suitable. I do think it's uncool of you to name moderators (in any light) as you are not familiar with every mod on boards.ie.

*Or am I?

WhiteWashMan

sorry, ive missed everything up til now.
what exactly is the problem here and now?

6th

Ned78 has been posting here happily for a year and a half, all is well and good. Then he gets banned from paranormal for insulting peoples beliefs and ignoring the charter. All of a sudden he highlights the problems of boards, the stuff thats hoping it back .... the BIG DEBATE .... when most people dont give a shíte.

Talliesin

Presumably Ned78 can't read. What would be the point of warning them or PMing them?

nesf

ned78 wrote:

By your Logic, volunteers for, let's say the Homeless should be able to decide who they give soup to, and who they don't. Paid or not, if you sign up to do a job, you should do it to the best of your ability.

Using your example: by your logic the homeless should be able to dictate to the volunteers when and where they should work, which I'm sure we can all agree is silly. There is a middle ground where both the volunteers and the homeless are happy, and that is what you see here, the majority of the people seem to be happy the majority of the time. But never fall into the trap of thinking that the volunteers are required to be there to give soup out etc.

GuanYin

ned78 wrote:

I really and truly give up.

He says that now, but I bet he doesn't

nesf wrote:

Using your example: by your logic the homeless should be able to dictate to the volunteers when and where they should work, which I'm sure we can all agree is silly.

Pretty much bang on. In any institution, there has to be give and take. To put it in another analogous way, if they homeless people started acting rude, obnoxious and insulting towards the volunteer staff, would the volunteer staff keep coming?

While the warn, warn, ban approach is something I am wholeheartedly in favour of (and it can be traced through any of my many soapbox moments on mod forum) there is a level of give and take that must be seen.

Mods don't have to take abuse or insults off anyone. Likewise, if someone deliberately sets out to do something that is against the rules, I see no particular reason to waste my time on them - they had no respect for me, after all.

Talliesin wrote:

Presumably Ned78 can't read. What would be the point of warning them or PMing them?

Well that has been my contention. I mean, he didn't bother to read the charter, so why should he bother reading my warning PM.

In any case, my experience suggests that people like ned tend to react in an aggressive defensive way when warned and only take this moral "lets change the world" highground after they have been banned for breaking a rule.

This is the problem with how seriously mods take feedback as a whole. If someone gets banned for breaking a clear rule or ignoring a warning, they start a fight the power thread about how terrible the whole system is. It seems the system was fine, or at least not worth complaining about up til the point they got banned - which, at least 90% of the time, is soley their own fault.

This just comes from people not taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions, much like Ned here.

Terry

Thaedydal wrote:

If a person who has never posted on the forum and has not taken the time to become part of the community comes along and break the rules then they are to be banned with as far as I am concerned no remorse.

pretty much the route i take when banning people.
I have lifted a ban once after the person I banned PM'd me and showed me (politely) that I was the one in the wrong.
I've also been banned from a few of the forums here for being a muppet and not reading the charter. The previous forums I had used were pretty much unmoderated and all the rules went out the window. as soon as I settled in here and followed the rules, I began to enjoy this place even more.
in summary: follow the rules and you'll be fine.

scojones

MAJD summed it up perfectly a few pages back.
Ned78 had a severe case of selective reading.
There is no problem with the banning process on boards.ie

Now lets dance!

DonkeyStyle \o/

The only suggestion I'd have is for there to be more information beyond the "<username> you do not have permission to access this page."
Instead using some kind of special 'banned' flag that would present the reason for and duration of the ban.
It'd surely cut down on the whole "omgzors was I banned?!1" experience people seem to be having.
Oh well, maybe in the next version of vBulletin.

Actually, it's only since reading this thread that I noticed was banned without notice from Paranormal as well, but I know what that was for, so I haven't been expecting a memo on the issue.

WhiteWashMan

right.

well, im glad i cleared that up for everyone.

normal service has resumed.

GuanYin

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

Actually, it's only since reading this thread that I noticed was banned without notice from Paranormal as well, but I know what that was for, so I haven't been expecting a memo on the issue.

That was me and your ban fell under the "why bother wasting my time with PM" category.

6th

And chances are I reported it ... being the tell-tale that I am

Anti

I myself am yet to ban anyone. But have warned a few users, in PM ofc.


That is all..

Jules

6th wrote:

being the tell-tale that I am

QFT

Just read through the whole thing.. and man was it an effort.

As said already in every forum there is the *read this before posting* and its at the top of every page and well if you dont have the basic intelligence to do this well then you have no business being here.

The mods are fine and ban as per the warning, temp blah blah 99% of the time but contrary to popular belief mods are human and offer up their time on a voluntary basis. tbh if i had taken the time to write up a charter for a forum and people didnt have the intelligence to read it, or the basic common sense not to insult people or make stupid comments well then i would get to the point where i would be pissed off at the moronic feckers and just temp ban them!

just my 2cents!

nesf

Anti wrote:

I myself am yet to ban anyone. But have warned a few users, in PM ofc.


That is all..

Want me to troll Distributed Computing so you can get your first ban in?

Anti

nesf wrote:

Want me to troll Distributed Computing so you can get your first ban in?

Oh thank the lord. Please do, i have a itchy trigger finger

miju

ned78 wrote:

If you took the time to read the post above yours, you'd see I agree with banning people who flood forums, etc. It's the first timers who should be shown consideration. All are being tarred with the same brush, and that's not fair. Everyone deserves a chance.

i just read through this thread and it really wasnt worth it tbh bar a few good well thought out posts,

my €0.02 is that if someone isn't behaving i reckon most mods would take a quick look at the join date / post count and quickly draw a conclusion they are a noob and be helpful in turning them into a well behaved boardsie , i know i've done this a fair few times and i'm sure every one else has at times as well ,

of course if someone has 1 post , joined an hour ago and is spamming , instant ban and i wouldn't even bother with a PM or even think twice about it

each case really has to be taken on it's merits , sometimes a quick post in the thread will be enough , other times a PM other times nothing at all. it really just all depends on the offender and the offending posts

to go off topic for a sec i love this comment from seamus on the ban list:

16-01-2007, 2:43mprNEVER**** off.

two words that sum up alot of emosions there

Anti

Most interlectual post so far i must say miju.

miju

jaysis this thread must be alot worse off than i thought then