God Save the Queen & Croke Park

Fratton Fred

boneless wrote:

If the Scots can handle it in Murrayfield despite the verse which calls for the massacre of their race (not often sung I know!!) then we can handle it in Croker... I will sing the 'Internationale' instead of both anthems!!

the verse you refer to, which is never sung, actually talks about crushing the rebellious Scots. Not exactly a call to massacre their race.

At the time that was written, the Scots were pretty good at the odd Massacre themselves.

Anyway, one point of order, As we do not know the identity of the men who carried out the massacre at Croke park (remember also that 25 people died that day, 12 Police Officers were murdered by Michael Collins boys) they could just have easily been Scottish or Welsh, or Irish for that matter.

There quite often seems to be a confusion between England and Britain, the Queen of course being the head of state of both. I'm not saying it is not a significant occasion and that it should not be recognised in some way, but it is not as black and white as it wold initially appear.

on thesubject of massacres as well, I'm dreading a massacre of another kind that day:o

InFront

The only disgraceful thing about this is the price of the tickets through unoffical lines!
I find it strange that this is an issue or made out to be a historical rivalry outside of the simple rivalry it ought to be: friendly sporting rivalry between GAA and rugby. This happened in 1920, nobody who was involved is alive. Why do we try to hang on to other people's grim memories do tenaciously?

If I were a betting man, I would be willing to bet very confidently that there will be nothing but friendly banter between the two sets of rugby fans, just as it has been in the past.

But as walrusgumble correctly said, the Irish and British soccer fans, who both have a poor record, are the ones to watch. That is where we might see old historical (bigotted) rivalries emerge. I hope not.

Anyway, while an Ireland-England rugby match is never something to be ignored... I don't see this one as especially historic. Not being a GAA fan, I can't say the match in Croke park will have any real meaning attached, apart from a great new venue for Irsih Rugby!:)

walrusgumble

any relevance? well hopefully another glorious win for ireland fot their third triple crown and dare i say it grandslam. (please god but never under estimate the french or the english)

incidently, the irish soccer fans(international matches are well behaved. i know no one disputes that) as for domestic, anyone who follows the league of ireland know the usual suspects. i am worried though because films like green st and football factory have warped some kids into thinking its cool thus shaming our clubs (athlone town v galway utd last season and athlone town v shamrock rovers both shown on tg4) i think the english fa (who cant get all the stick and would be remeber lansdowne 1995) are getting their act together, the british behaved in germany. anyway as csk said earlier, this aint relevant to history and hertiage (but then again sport is part of our hertiage, all codes of sport,i am sure people know co.kerry was ruby mad before the gaa fever kicked in).

how much does anyone bet that the gaa stimulator of foreign games into croker lol and other big whigs at gaa hq will get some notice, maybe have an gaa and hurling exhibition match before the big game , a irish club v a club from london (childrens team). maybe the english would like to see what the game is all about? what be really class, get both teams parade around the field to the sound of the artane boys band. pitch invasion gaa style after (joking terrible idea, but would freak our friends across the water out for the craic)

ah man, get pat spillane in with hook and pope (brilliant tv, just imagine it)

csk made an intersting point earlier about a minute silence, and this has already been discussed, but from a sporting view, maybe at half time get a few from both nations giants of ruby be brought out to the pitch and greet the crowd (like they do on an all ireland final day, maybe martin morrisey will get that gig lol)

anyway i am sure many english supporters will be as much amazed by the stadium as we are and might take a trip in to the gaa musuem in the hogan stand before the game. elverys sport shop will make a killing with merchndise (rugby shirts of course)

Fratton Fred

I think the England fan would appreciate a boys band or an exhibition match of that mad hockey type game you play

But please, on behalf of all my fellow Englishmen, none of that awful folk music you play over here.....:D

csk

walrusgumble wrote:

well hopefully another glorious win for ireland fot their third triple crown and dare i say it grandslam. (please god but never under estimate the french or the english)

Here here. Although it's the French and Welsh we really have to worry about.;)

Ah scratch the minutes silence. I think to welcome and honour our English Friends to Croke park ,we should just beat them by a cricket score instead

FrattonFred wrote:

But please, on behalf of all my fellow Englishmen, none of that awful folk music you play over here.....

I hear the Wolfe Tones are free that weekend...*
















* I kid

walrusgumble

fair enough we will leave the folk music out, any suggestions for music, "swing low sweet chariot.............." go on ireland

Erin Go Brath

csk wrote:

I hear the Wolfe Tones are free that weekend...*

lol

Seriously I dont think think they should play God Save The Queen. We should play an arbitrary English song instead..... The theme tune to the Benny Hill show would be fitting. The English pack can be the girls, while Brian O Driscoll will be Benny. (They'll spend the game chasing him around the place). Haha

walrusgumble

InFront wrote:

Anyway, while an Ireland-England rugby match is never something to be ignored... I don't see this one as especially historic. Not being a GAA fan, I can't say the match in Croke park will have any real meaning attached, apart from a great new venue for Irsih Rugby!:)

i apperiate you are not a gaa fan, but i reckon a chap like yourself knows a bit of its history. maybe i am making a big deal of it here with my response but....

to the gaa in a way it is an historical event. while the gaa was always a promtion of irish culture ( remember scor na nog, music competion) in any it was a bit inclusive. some examples include prohibition of members of the ruc (now psni) and british army from playing gaa (now abolished and repealed in the late 1990's): or the prohibition of gaa members from playing any garrison game (cricket, rugby, soccer etc) again abolished since 1971? and now the temporary repeal of rule 42.and waht better way to open croker than with a game of the auld enmey ot those from across the water (friendly rivalary of course)

if you noticed my earlier post (i am sure you have) footie fans who made apres match took the merciful pis* (rightly so) out of the gaa. it would have been horrible for rugny or soccer fans to have to go to england or scotland to see our national teams play their home games (particularily where they have hosted nfl games and many british musician's concerts). croker was ideal. the gaa have now opened their door and showed that they are forward looking. next stop dominate the further worldwide promotion of the game

InFront

Well I hope it does promote their game, and although I don't have any particular allegiances to it (because Im crap at it) the GAA is in my opinion the best thing to come out of irish nationalism. Nobody has ever been killed fighting for the GAA and it promotes nothing but decency, healthy living, sportsmanship and a clean attitude. Politicians could learn a lot.

I cannot appreciate that this should be afforded any significance in the 1920 context, because nobody can, nor should they, offer any apology or accept any apology because we are all removed from that. That was the misfortune of other, dead people. It has nothing to do with any of us.

However, yes you are of course correct, this has great historical significance for the promotion of sport be it hurling or rugby or soccer, and I see sport as being the real, and deserved winner.
But that is where its meaning should end. Forget 1920, it is none of our collective business.

walrusgumble

true.

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote:

But please, on behalf of all my fellow Englishmen, none of that awful folk music you play over here.....:D

Hoy!! If there's any apologising to be done for crimes against humanity it should be for that bloody awful Morris dancing complete with knee bells and clacking sticks that you lot have given the world.

And I believe it's very popular down Portsmouth way.

As to the issue at hand: I think it will be a marvellous day and a very proud moment when God Save the Queen (if she's still with us) is played at Croke Park. It shows that an English national team can come to the home of Ireland's national sport and be treated with exactly the same courtesy that any other visiting nation would be afforded. An Irish and English team will do battle on the field as representatives of each other's nations, each with their own anthem (or anthems in our case ) played before the start of the game.

That will say more about reconciliation and acceptance of each other's equal status than any minute's silence or wreath laying service ever could.

Fair play to the last leadership of the GAA for helping that motion through and ending the insulting silliness of the notion that those who played rugby or soccer for Ireland were any less Irish than those who chose to play football or hurling for Kerry or Kilkenny.

Jackie laughlin

Am I absolutely alone in going off this idea? As a working class, soccer-playing, Dublin kid I was persecuted by my teachers who were bigots. They forced me to play Gaelic. The school yard was policed and boys who didn't handle the ball were beaten. These days I watch the Artane Band (Isn't it incomprehensible that their name was not changed? God help us, they were even at the cup final this year!) march around Croke Park and I tend to see the whole place as a monument to bigotry unworthy of having an Irish national team play there.

InFront

Lots of us were forced to do things we didn't want to as kids, sometimes we were dragged by the ear into doing it. That hardly amounts to 'persecution'.

There is no alterior motive in sport, its fundamental philosophy lies in personal development. Croke Park is not a monument to bigotry, it is a monument to sportsmanship, demonstrated by the skill, dedication and attitude of players who have played there in the past and - thanks to the camaraderie of its authorities - by those who will play there in the very near future.

walrusgumble

in front fare enough, but that aint really what the last poster is referring too in that way. back in the day when priests and brothers where teachers, they forced gaa to be palyed (especially in rural areas) and it was seen that if ya didnt play somehow you were anti irish (in eyes of some of the clergy, who contributed greatly to the game)


soccer was truely seen as the garrison british game, hence all those pre historic realics, remember in prior to 1971 memebrs of the gaa couldnt play or be seen at a soccer/rugby/hockey or cricket match are they be banned from the game.

anyway coker is only temporarily opened for a few years to it, so long as fai get their act together and help out irfu in funding lansdowne, everything while be sweet

alias, kids can now play what they want today

Jackie laughlin

InFront,
You might read my post again. I was forced to do things I didn't like by my parents. At school things were altogether different. I was persecuted by Gaelic bigots. Gaelic games were politicised. That kind of pseudo nationalism is gone. I played a tiny part in its demise by holding firm to my Irish culture.

I asked a question in my post. Am I alone in feeling a sense of betrayal that a national team will play in Croke Park? Frankly, I was delighted when the decision was first made and now I'm surprised at my developing feelings.

Incidentally, I have no problem with Gaelic culture; I speak Irish.

InFront

No I can appreciate the historical situation, but that's all it is - history.

I don't see why you see the current GAA headquarters as "a monument to bigotry unworthy of having an irish national team play there"? Why? The GAA are a sporting organization - they may once have had a political agenda to some degree - but that is not the case now. There is simply no reason for an irish team not to play at Croke Park.

walrusgumble

there are def people out there who dispise the gaa cause they were forced to play, and thats only in recent years. (2 of my mates in particular who are soccer heads)

but jackie, more than likely, when the rugby and soccer lads play there they will have their own people working in croker on the day eg stewards etc .

good point on the artane "abused" boys bad though. but to be far the players will relish playing in a better stadium, hopefully there be more tickets and beter oppurtunity for more supporters to come. i guess in the world of money that what the fai,irfu and gaa or ga will be concerned with. sure i am sure even the irish lads were also forced to play gaa, kevin doyle was a ga head once.

in some ways in front is right, things have changed and its tough luck to the gaa. maybe had they had a different approach to their promotion of the game back in the day maybe less people be hostile to it.now thats not to say, ah look jackie its all in the past move on, that be wrong cause id say ye were hard done by (ie not having a say on what sport ya could play in school) but i guess if there was another venue in ireland capable of holding soccer/rugby games then maybe croker would never have been considered.

at least its only a temporary arrangement (hopefully from a gaa perspective and time for dublin/ireland to have 2 great sporting stadiums )

Jackie laughlin

Walrus,
Thank you. You are right. As I said I'm surprised to find myself thinking in this way. The idea of a NATIONAL team playing in a stadium which was for so long about divisiveness and brutality is hard to take. When the soccer team takes to the field with the Irish lads born in England, it's always given me a lift.

purple'n'gold

These days I watch the Artane Band (Isn't it incomprehensible that their name was not changed? God help us, they were even at the cup final this year!)

agree with you completely, the name of the band should be changed. Actually the entire area of Dublin called artane should be renamed. The very name must bring back terrible memories for former inmates who were abused and tortured there by “Christian brothers”

stipey

I think the only people who would be bother by GSTQ being played in Croker are your typical barstool republicans who think that because they wear a celtic jersey, chant "Oh! Ah! Up the Ra!" and bleat on about "800 years of oppression" that they are as patriotic and noble as Pearse and co.

Erin Go Brath

The GAA and Croke Park is about the playing, and promoting of indigenous Irish sports, and certainly not about brutality as some people here seem to be suggesting.

Furthermore, Soccer, and Rugby should be eternally grateful to the GAA for the use of Croke Park for their Internationals. The GAA have done them a huge favour to help out in their hour of need.

walrusgumble

secondly,

soccer and rugby regardless of who brought it to ireland,have been very much part of irish culture too,try and dispute that with working class dublines like liam brady, johnny giles and co or the days dalymount would get 100,000 to see an fai cup final or shamrock rovers v man utd, or the exposure athlone got when the papers read athlone town 0 v 0 ac milan in uefa cup in st mels .

the obvious is the jack charlton and eddie o'sullivan eras or even irfu's good spell in the 1980's (look how many people claim that they were in thomond park when munster beat the all blacks in the 1970's, or the pride when willie wallace captained the british and irish lions.

i was shocked to learn that long before the gaa became regularised and established rugby was the big deal in................... KERRY! (how times have changed)

i think its brilliant that it can bbe safe to say this is a sporting mad country. no one in their right mind gives a damn of who you are, where your from or what your creed is when ya are breaking every bone in your body to get a tackle in or help your team win. sports is meant to be the barrier breaker between people, and it so happens there is variety in ireland, and long may that live

i am proud of the fact that we, like the aussie's, have our own indegenous sport, it is def on part of me that proud to be irish come when the gaa season opens in february. we ahve our own unique games and hurling is up there with the best of them. now time for more international recognition. put a hold to those ie hockey lads claiming theirs is the fastest sport in the world

Sand

I think it will be a marvellous day and a very proud moment when God Save the Queen (if she's still with us) is played at Croke Park. It shows that an English national team can come to the home of Ireland's national sport and be treated with exactly the same courtesy that any other visiting nation would be afforded.

You might be jinxing it there. If the Celtic contingent show up in force then so might the "800 years!" mentality, and then things might get embarrassing when the national anthemns are playing.

Apart from how Ireland does, the day will mostly be enjoyable in terms of how much it really annoys people who would be really annoyed by the idea of England in Croke Park. Hopefully there will be a picket of outraged types to allow others to engage in schaudenfreude.

As for the GAA and its relation to garrison games, enough has been said - the GAA has always feared football stealing away their young cuchulainns with their foreign viles. Non GAA sports have never been viewed as simply other sports, but rather as the enemy.

I dont know how well grounded that fear is when you consider the example of relatively small countries like Australia which have their own aussie rules, and still find the time to excel in cricket, rugby, athletics and to field a half decent football side. Several popular sports dont seem to harm Australias ability to field top quality sporting sides.

Furthermore, Soccer, and Rugby should be eternally grateful to the GAA for the use of Croke Park for their Internationals. The GAA have done them a huge favour to help out in their hour of need.

Im a tax payer. The GAA ought to build a statue of me and worship it.

Steyr

All i can say is let history stay where it is in the past, move on and lets go and cheer for Ireland, we have a brilliant side and are gonna do wonders, i think we will get the grand slam!

Dante's Devise

I agree that we should go on and cheer for our team & enjoy the day, but at the same time we have to at least acknowledge our past, we should recognise bad times along with the good. We should recognise that people died in Croke Park at the hands of the English and we should, as stated before, observe a minute's silence or some other act to remember that atrocity because it is what happened the last time the two nations were present on the pitch. The English fans would respectfully acknowledge the act & so we could accept & "move on".

Victor

Dante's Devise wrote:

it is what happened the last time the two nations were present on the pitch.

That is not an accurate description.

InFront

Dante's Devise wrote:

to remember that atrocity

I think remember is the wrong word. Commemorate maybe, or impose it ona group of British sports fans who know nothing, or care nothing about it.

There would be nobody in that entire stadium of people who could "remember" the 1920 attack. I don't see why it should be taken personally, surely the act of getting on with the game would be enough to say "we've moved on, it's over"

Victor

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6324541.stm

walrusgumble

ireland will have enough to worry about if johnny wilkson plays the way he did against scotland yesterday.

look the best way to give croker a good day, is for BO'D and co to give the english the run around and beat them well, (and to rubbed in the face of Brian Ashton)

It is not like the English rugby supporters will be clueless of the fact of where they will be on that day. Many who have come to Lansdowne over the years (and many may know Dublin better than say someone from eg Galway or other rural counties who come to Dublin for the annual christmas shopping) They may have a good idea of Croker's past. I am sure the English and Argentine rugby fans get on ok without having to remind everyone of the Faulklands war, which was only 20 years ago.

Unless the English fans started some rubbish akin to some of their soccer counterparts (Lansdowne 1995), then they should not be heaped with the guilt of the past generation (and that is highely unlikey). Maybe some of their ancestors supported an independent Ireland.

We must also remember that the Irish team represents the whole of Ireland. Some Ulster supporters or their ancestors maybe be from the Unionists faith.We would hardly want to put some of our home fans in an uneasy zone.

Like i say, there are more important issues at stake, like Ireland retaining the Triple Crown, and maybe pushing for a Grandslam or at best the Championship. Come on Ireland.

Fratton Fred

Victor wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6324541.stm

That's a good article and raises a few points that I feel need to be pointed out.

Firstly, 25 people were murdered that day and although there will be those that consider the 12 British Officers "Justifiable" targets, they were murdered in front of their families and people lost husbands/fathers/sons that day on both "Sides".

Scondly, I presume that Scotland and Wales will be expected to commemorate that day when they play at Croke Park? they are after all, part of Britain and there is a good chance Welsh or Scotsmen were involved in the Croke Park massacre.