A home of your own? - Public meeting on housing 23rd Jan 2007, 8pm

ryanoid

Hi folks, I thought people on this board might be interested in this event. I hope it's considered relevant - it's aimed at the issue which affect people in need of housing, whether it's private, local authority or affordable housing. Full details are available here.

A Home of your Own ? - A Green Party Public Meeting on making housing available and affordable in Dublin

Tuesday 23rd January 8pm, Cultivate Centre, Temple Bar
All welcome

High house prices and lack of social and affordable housing in Dublin South East, Dublin South and Dun Laoghaire means that finding a home nearby your family or existing community is all but impossible. Can anything be done to give young people the opportunity of finding a home close to their families and places of employment? Is there an alternative to the fragmented communities and lengthy commuting times delivered by current housing policies?

Green Party TDs Ciarán Cuffe, John Gormley and Eamon Ryan are jointly hosting a public meeting to discuss ideas and solutions on how to tackle the housing crisis we face. This meeting will be of interest to all first-time buyers and those otherwise in need of housing.

Speakers on the evening include Professor PJ Drudy of Trinity College Dublin who is the co-author of “Out of Reach - Inequalities in the Irish Housing System”, Jim Power, Economist with Friends First, Cllr Bill Randall of the Brighton Green Party who was named Housing Journalist of the Year 2000 in the UK and property developer Bernard McNamara.

The meeting will take place on Tuesday 23rd January 2006 at 8.00pm in the Cultivate Centre, Essex Street West, Temple Bar. There is no charge for attending and all are welcome.

This meeting will be of interest to anyone in need of housing, whether it be local authority, affordable, or private housing.

babytooth

posted a link to same in the propertypin.com...

spreading the word as it seems like a decent set-up.

chump

ryanoid wrote:

A Home of your Own ? - A Green Party Public Meeting on making housing available and affordable in Dublin

The answer to making housing more affordable is

1. the government to make a committment to maintaining the status quo in terms of taxes (stamp duty, interest relief, etc.). Any sudden or unflagged changes will have a negative effect in terms of affordability.

2. the government should reduce incentives for investors slowly - this will bring down prices as it will immediately eliminate a chunk of demand

3. the government need to increase the power of the central bank to control the banks

All this said, I believe the best thing the government can do right now, is nothing at all. Any attempts to alleviate the burden of buying a home won't work. People just need to take a breath and watch the prices come back to sensible levels.


disclaimer: this post is ridiculously simplistic and doesn't begin to cover everything i believe should be done, but jaysus im tired and not in the mood to construct a sensible post

ryanoid

babytooth wrote:

posted a link to same in the propertypin.com...

spreading the word as it seems like a decent set-up.

Thanks babytooth. Should be an interesting discussion.

chump, if you're free on the night why not come along and contribute those suggestions? There will be an open forum.

hmmm

Every time I hear a leftist party taking about making houses affordable it usually involve subsidising house prices by increasing tax on the "wealthy" (generally anyone earning more than the dole). Alternatively, they introduce rent caps or house price caps which as any economist will tell you just leads to artificial scarcity but makes good soundbites.

I'd like to be able to buy a house without any handouts or artificial supports to the property market. For that, we have to tackle supply and build up, and we have to make renting a long term option. I don't see any of the political parties out there who have that on their agenda (nominally the government parties do, but by their actions they just benefit their developer friends).

Calina

Throwing money at the problem is avoiding the simple reality. Houses are too expensive. Handing people money to pay for them doesn't actually alleviate the problem, it makes it worse.

Affordable housing in Dublin is not, in fact affordable. It's just less expensive than what is currently outrageously expensive property. It is entirely possible that left to its own devices the market will probably correct - painfully, I have no doubt - but hey...that's reality.

In truth, something should have been done about rising prices before now. My favourite tactic would have been to limit the amount of credit going into the market in the way of higher salary multiples and 100% mortgages but that particular horse has bolted. We are on a precipice and frankly I wouldn't necessarily attend this meeting. The way to make housing affordable is to reduce the price of it. Unfortunately I don't think anyone really wants to deal with that reality because in that reality a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money that they thought they had and which it is entirely possible they owe rather than own.

I'm with hmmm's comment on long term rental too - but I can't see that happening if the comments and behaviour of some landlords I know and have dealt with over the years is any reflection on the house owner side of things.

ryanoid

hmmm wrote:

Every time I hear a leftist party taking about making houses affordable it usually involve subsidising house prices by increasing tax on the "wealthy" (generally anyone earning more than the dole). Alternatively, they introduce rent caps or house price caps which as any economist will tell you just leads to artificial scarcity but makes good soundbites.

I don't think either of those measures feature in the Green Party's housing policy, but if you're interested you can read the whole thing here.

I'd like to be able to buy a house without any handouts or artificial supports to the property market. For that, we have to tackle supply and build up, and we have to make renting a long term option. I don't see any of the political parties out there who have that on their agenda (nominally the government parties do, but by their actions they just benefit their developer friends).

The Green Party wants to increase the role of the not-for-profit sector in providing long-term rented accommodation for all income groups, as is the case elsewhere in Europe:

Green Party wrote:

The Green Party will target all new tax incentives on not-for-profit housing and cost rental with a wide remit to provide for all income groups. The European Rental Sector is dominated by not-for-profits and they provide secure, reasonably priced accommodation for all income groups. The Green Party believes that this latter model is the appropriate one to follow for Ireland and one that will as a consequence lower rents in the private sector. At present, Housing Associations are required as part of their registration process to have a charitable remit focusing on the disadvantaged in society. Additionally, public funding such as the Capital Loan and Subsidy Schemes require that the Association prioritise tenants from the local authority housing list. There is a provision for a small percentage of less needy tenants but, in practice, this rarely occurs. The result is that social housing is following the local authority housing experience and becoming housing of ‘last resort’.

In any case, the meeting is not just about the Green Party's proposals, there are three speakers on the panel who aren't Greens, and there will be an open forum for the audience to make contributions.

kizzyr

Why is everyone in Ireland so obsessed with ownership of their home People all over the world rent for all of their lives e.g NYC, London, Paris, Berlin etc etc. Property is expensive there too and only those that can afford to buy otherwise they rent. Renting works there so why can't it here? It bugs me that the government is feeding this obsession with affordable housing when others who live in the same development are paying the full whack for their house.

Calina

kizzyr wrote:

Why is everyone in Ireland so obsessed with ownership of their home People all over the world rent for all of their lives e.g NYC, London, Paris, Berlin etc etc. Property is expensive there too and only those that can afford to buy otherwise they rent. Renting works there so why can't it here? It bugs me that the government is feeding this obsession with affordable housing when others who live in the same development are paying the full whack for their house.

It doesn't work here because what is called security of tenure here is nothing of the kind. In a best case scenario, you're talking about 4 years with 56 days minimum notice on both sides. There is a shocking lack of trust in the rental sector because by and large there are screwballs on both sides and protection for tenants is minimal. Even so most cases which wind up in arbitration find in favour of the tenants. In other words, despite a minimal amount of protection for tenants, in 80% of arbitration cases, the PRTB finds in their favour. Many landlords aren't even adhering to what are fairly non-onerous responsibilities.

Additionally, landlords have the right to sell properties and give notice accordingly. My experience is that they don't adhere to the notice, and try to get out of what are minimal responsibilities. I have friends in Germany who are guaranteed 3 months notice, with additional protections if the owner wants to sell to owner occupation - ie - change in the purpose of the apartment from investment to PPR. Effectively that means a reasonably stable rental stock which is something we're not going to have here as some of the BTL brigade start trying to lock in their capital appreciation gains. There are already bottlenecks in the availability of rental accommodation in parts of Dublin.

Don't get me wrong - I have no objection towards renting - there are, after all, some serious benefits to it in general terms. But those benefits are largely negated by how things are done in the rental market in this country. And I have rented in France, Germany, Belgium and the UK. Ireland is pitiful by comparison.

ryanoid

kizzyr wrote:

Why is everyone in Ireland so obsessed with ownership of their home People all over the world rent for all of their lives e.g NYC, London, Paris, Berlin etc etc. Property is expensive there too and only those that can afford to buy otherwise they rent. Renting works there so why can't it here?

Mostly because you have so few rights as a tenant here compared to those other cities. Most people here feel insecure renting from a private landlord long-term. Other countries have better regulation to protect tenants' rights and also have better renting options such as co-ops, not-for-profit housing associations etc.

I should point out that this meeting isn't intended to push home ownership as the only solution to the housing issue.

kizzyr

I fully accept that the rental situation in Ireland is deadful and because of this I can see why people view ownership as their only secure option. Don't you think that it may perhaps be a better long term option for the government to rectify this situation so that Ireland follows the renting norms of other countries (like those already mentioned) rather than spend so much money on affordable housing. This, to me, is propping up the building industry in a false way and making the economy even more dependent on this one thing to keep the Tiger going.
Maybe I'm wrong on this, but the obsession Irish people have with home ownership is odd, how long can people hark back to the good ol' "ah sure it was years of the Brits being our landlords that has done it to us..." Its time to move on!! I am also amused (not in a ha ha thats funny way) at how we feel that we have a divine right to OWN a house / apartment. We may have a right to a home to live in but to own

SkepticOne

The basic situation which none of the parties will admit to is that there is a bubble and this bubble will burst. No party (including the Greens) wants to be blamed for bringing about the burst even though bursting the bubble is the actual solution.

Politicians want houses to be both cheap (for new buyers) and expensive (for existing owners) at the same time. Unfortunately this cannot be done without massive subsidy for which the tax-payer is unwilling to pay. Therefore what we what we inevitably get when we go down this route are schemes where a small number of houses are made available either to buy or to rent - a token gesture to the first-time-buyer while the bubble continues.

Open Window

SkepticOne wrote:

The basic situation which none of the parties will admit to is that there is a bubble and this bubble will burst. No party (including the Greens) wants to be blamed for bringing about the burst even though bursting the bubble is the actual solution.

Politicians want houses to be both cheap (for new buyers) and expensive (for existing owners) at the same time. Unfortunately this cannot be done without massive subsidy for which the tax-payer is unwilling to pay. Therefore what we what we inevitably get when we go down this route are schemes where a small number of houses are made available either to buy or to rent - a token gesture to the first-time-buyer while the bubble continues.

You know houses are surprisingly cheap to build. If executed correctly they can in fact be created ultimately for free.

Now what you say is true and I'll tell you what a very prominent labour politician told me 4 years ago (paraphrasing here)

"you see the problem is people care about housing right, but as soon as they get their own house/mortgage they don't care any more about the rental sector or the price in 5 years time...."

so essentially what they were revealing was the very self centered nature at which people approach this issue. I say that is more symptomatic of the system and how people are asked to interact more or a "whats in it for me" incentive is promoted by the policies and styles of government we tend to get here.

People are naturally selfish becasue they feel the pressure of the finite nature of things, however if they didn't have to fret and were provided for all of this comotion would end and we could get on with the more important issue at hand and that is justifying our right to actually remain on this planet.

If you want and I am meekly pluggin none the less our forum over on the www.thepropertypin.com, we have a dedicated team of bears working over time on the problems at hand!

Right the real reason I posted,

DID ANYONE GO TO THE TALK! I couldn't make it DOH!

I had my quesiton well rehearsed (all that time in front of the mirror wasted!)