Down with blowing stuff up in Outer Space!

fly_agaric

I just read something about the US destroying a satellite with a ballistic missile. I am outraged...

Those fascistic Amerikans and their engines of death and destruction commanded by Emperor Cheney and his evil apprentice the Chimp of Satan!

Violating the black hymen of outer-space with their phallic rocket-bombs made possible by the evil sciences of Dead White Males! Extending the aggressions and rivalries of earth out into the sacred vastness of the cosmos!

I say down with the capitalist running dogs and neoimperial exploiters!
Down with the Amerikan Yankee capitalist running dogs!

leninbenjamin

I thought it was the chinese who blew it up? an old weather satellite or something, and it drove the Americans/Koreans/Japanese all nuts?

Gordon

Got a link? The only thing I heard was that China destroyed their own satellite with a ballistic missile. link

fly_agaric

Oops, How embarassing! It was of course China that committed this, well, sort of agressive act in space...:)

Me thinks they are beginning to become irritated by US satellites spying on them/their military build-up and sending out a message that they could perhaps put a stop to it if they really decided they had to (invading Taiwan).
Anyone else care to speculate on the political motivations behind this military exercise?

Gordon

fly_agaric wrote:

Oops, How embarassing! It was of course China that committed this, well, sort of agressive act in space...:)

Me thinks they are beginning to become irritated by US satellites spying on them/their military build-up and sending out a message that they could perhaps put a stop to it if they really decide they had to.
Anyone else care to speculate on the political motivations behind this military exercise?

So you don't have a problem with China doing this?

cornbb

If the Americans decided to carry out such an exercise I don't think they'd give a monkeys about whatever anyone else thought about it. They had that whole Star Wars defensive missile shield thing planned out.

BBC News wrote:

Mr Casey said the US had "no plans or intentions" to engage in space arms tests.

However, Washington has recently opposed international calls to end such tests ... and the US is known to be researching such "satellite-killing" weapons.

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Nick_oliveri

cornbb wrote:

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Researching the weapons is one thing, but using them in un-needed situations is another!

mike65

Should'nt be doing it anyway, space debris is an issue these days. One day something will proberly give the ISS a whack.

Mike.

flogen

China obviously did it as a warning to the US - in the past it has tried to blind US spy satellites and chances are this is a way of saying 'we're well able to take them down in one go' to America.

The US is acting all angry but is probably just a little bit freaked out. Star Wars and Son of Star Wars have both been plagued with massive problems - I remember one of the most recent (public) tests of it say most of their attempts fail.
America tends to tippy-toe around China because they know they're a serious military force and they know they're the kind of country you want on your side economically too...

Sand

The technology involved in shooting down sattelites is 20 years old and the US has carried out similar tests, and afaik opposed bans on such tests in line with its space defence philosophies. Though I understand concerns over space debris led to a reduction in tests. I'm not sure if the USSR carried out similar tests, but Id be surprised if they havent had had the capability.

The US is probably not morally outraged at the idea of China doing these tests, its just bothered by the Chinese demonstrating their ability to shoot down sattelites. Certainly given the Chinese regime I dont welcome any strenthening of their military capabilities either. Japan is more threatened given its proximity to an increasingly assertive China, and is gradually rearming and reasserting its right to act militarily in its own interests whilst also drawing closer to the US military alliance. The US, Japan and Taiwan all have an interest in checking Chinese military growth and certainly wont welcome these tests.

Fom the chinese point of view there may be no political motive behind it other than an actual practical test of their capability to do it. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

fly_agaric

Gordon wrote:

So you don't have a problem with China doing this?

Oh, I do! It's not a good development at all.
My initial post was just a silly parody of possible boards.ie politics reactions from young Starbucks Coffee and Coca Cola quaffing activists had the US done this...(somewhat spoilt now:( ).

Sand

My initial post was just a silly parody of possible boards.ie politics reactions from young Starbucks Coffee and Coca Cola quaffing activists had the US done this...(somewhat spoilt now ).

I got it - but you Starbucks Coffee and Coca Cola quaffing activists wouldnt get it, theyd think you were just being reasonable and moderate:)

bonkey

fly_agaric wrote:

Anyone else care to speculate on the political motivations behind this military exercise?

Americans have made enough noises over recent years about how America should take control of near-space, militarise space etc. that I would speculate the Chinese are making it 100% clear that they have the capability and will to contest any such issue.

At a guess its a mid-to-long-term strategy, hoping to provoke comments of outrage from Americans about the deplorable actions, so that if and when the Americans start turning their eyes to near-space dominance in the future, the Chinese can point out their hypocracy.

Tea drinker

Excuse me while I spit out my gum.

bonkey wrote:

Americans have made enough noises over recent years about how America should take control of near-space, militarise space....
.

Yes yes and eh, yes.
There is an aggressive intent in US foreign policy that is fully intent on continuing and expanding it's global power.

bonkey wrote:

contest any such issue. .

The word contest now carries some danger. America's intention is to have to no-one to CONTEST it's dominance in space.
You don't have to read Noam Chomsky, it's freely expressed by the administration. Scary?
Does that put the Chinese test in perspective? As already stated here US tested tech. same in 80's.
As globailsation continues it's benign trek into every home, high tech wars become more important. Foot soldiers and other conventional tools have been drastically reduced in most western armies. This is one reason the conventional if asymetric wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are unsuccessful.. (to allies!)

Judt

The Soviets and Americans were playing this game 20 years ago. It's not about putting nukes in space more than it's about shooting down GPS and intelligence gathering satellites in a time of war. The Chinese shot down one of their aging weather satellites with an aging ballistic missile to see what would happen. In reality they are just as likely to have done it to bring the US to the table after it said that it would deny space capabilities to anyone it feels is a threat to it - the Chinese are both saying "We can shoot down your satellites, too" and "So how about we come to an agreement on space?"

There's a difference between shooting down satellites, which is akin to bombing a communications outpost, and "weaponising space" - that is, putting arms into orbit to be rained down wherever needed.

Sand

There's a difference between shooting down satellites, which is akin to bombing a communications outpost, and "weaponising space" - that is, putting arms into orbit to be rained down wherever needed.

I wouldnt say that. Space is already militarised when you consider the military using sattelite information to guide weapons and troops to targets. Information is a weapon afterall. Knocking sattelites down is simply an obvious escalation from that point. Sattelite counter measures to earth launched missles is an obvious development, and space based missiles another obvious development etc, etc.

Theres as much chance of space being demilitarised as there is the Pacific Ocean. Easy to say there will be no military in space when theres little or no capability of putting the military in space. As soon as it is possible....

You don't have to read Noam Chomsky, it's freely expressed by the administration. Scary?

Hold the front page! World shocked as dominant superpower announces plans to retain dominant position!

InFront

Hmmm what a fascinating idea, i hadn't heard about this at all. Imagine if all wars were fought in outer space with machines manned by remote controls instead of pilots. The loser would have to concede power. It would be like a video-gamers war on terror. Bush would love it.

Or even better, the people who decided to declare a war would have to go up and man the things, and then fight against each other up there themselves. Bush would love it not so much.

Someday...

Manic Moran

It seems to me that knocking down satellites would be a case of demilitarising space...

The US did do some anti-satellite tests back in the 1980s, with the ASAT missile carried under an F-15.



The programme was basically shelved after the Cold War, though given that the concept was proven, I don't see it being impossible to bring it back up to speed. The US has been looking more at laser-based systems instead, I think. I don't have too much of an issue with the tests... Does anyone really think that in event of war, people aren't going to be doing their damndest to disrupt satellites? As long as the stuff is going up, and not down, I don't mind too much.

NTM

partholon

personally i think its just the chinese reminding the yanks what they can do if they wish to. thought i heard somewhere that if you wanted to take out a spy satellite its much easier to use a laser to blind it than use a missile to destroy it. you achieve your aim of stopping intel being delivered and ya don't have the collateral damage of all that debris which, considering the chinese are talking about going to the moon, is what they'd want

TBH that's the issue i think that'd freak the Americans more. the line from the chinese is they want to go to the moon to get some stuff called hydrogen oxide (?) apparently the stuff can fuel the new generation of nuclear power stations they re building. a wheel barrow of it can apparently fuel all of Ireland's electrical needs for a year.

at least thats what they say

have to admit be fun to have a space race again! could you imagine if a chinese guy took down the American flag on the moon and put up a chinese one!!

Manic Moran

partholon wrote:

to the moon to get some stuff called hydrogen oxide (?) apparently the stuff can fuel the new generation of nuclear power stations they re building. a wheel barrow of it can apparently fuel all of Ireland's electrical needs for a year.

Ummm..Isn't that di-hydrogen oxide? Dangerous stuff, it kills thousands of people a year. I don't think there's much of it on the moon. People have been talking about running cars for a year on a cupful of the stuff for some time, just that nobody's ever managed to get it to work.

NTM

Sponge Bob

fly_agaric wrote:

Anyone else care to speculate on the political motivations behind this military exercise?

Yeah, the US never knew that the Chinese had a program to take out their spy sats until they demonstrated it whereas everybody knew about star wars in the 1980s . the political motivation is to create much FUD and gridlock in Washington as the democrat demand answers from the Bu****es on how much they knew...feck all apparently

The fact that the US spends stupendous amounts on global surveillance and knew nothing is just not good enough is it ??

The yanks deployed some stealth assets to Japan , thats all.

The Voice of America carried this article tut tutting the Chinese .

http://voanews.com/english/2007-01-20-voa1.cfm

In a VOA interview before the Chinese test was conducted, the head of strategic planning and analysis at the U.S. Air Force Space Command said U.S. policy calls for the protection of the country's access to space.

and

General Worley says the United States is not interested in developing any space weapons, and may not have to in order to deter attacks on its space assets. The general says the U.S. ability to track everything that happens in space may be enough. "I think there's a significant deterrent effect of everyone knowing that we could attribute a hostile act in space to a particular state or non-state actor," he said.

Cheng says the altitude where China destroyed its satellite, about 800 kilometers high, is used heavily for military purposes including reconnaissance, navigation, remote sensing and earth imaging, as well as for weather satellites which are also important in military planning.

the US has its Lacrosse constellation of high res radar sats in that orbit and they are a lot bigger and therefore easier to hit than the sat the chinese took out. There are only 3 or 4 of these in service as it happens and at least one overflys every part of the planet daily .

Furthermore the US never took out a sat at 800-850km up , their 1980s test was only at 600km .

It was also a warning to Google

InFront

Manic Moran wrote:

Ummm..Isn't that di-hydrogen oxide? Dangerous stuff, it kills thousands of people a year. I don't think there's much of it on the moon. People have been talking about running cars for a year on a cupful of the stuff for some time, just that nobody's ever managed to get it to work.
NTM

Yes, I live in fear of this as well. Now that the Iranians seem to have gotten their hands on it, who knows what will become of us all. These people need to pay for their illegal chemical militarism. More information of this deadly chemical here

http://www.dhmo.org/

partholon

Manic Moran wrote:

Ummm..Isn't that di-hydrogen oxide? Dangerous stuff, it kills thousands of people a year. I don't think there's much of it on the moon. People have been talking about running cars for a year on a cupful of the stuff for some time, just that nobody's ever managed to get it to work.

NTM

yup thats the stuff. i cant remember where i read the article as it was so long ago but it maintained there was large deposits of the stuff on the moon and that was the rational of the chinese government for going there. but you know yourself. the yanks went to the moon to stick it to the reds despite their cover story of scientific endevour and thats why they never went back after the 70's. i reckon its the same with the chinese. this is the cover story theyre using to justify it whereas the real reason is probably political and posturing around like a superpower.

InFront

Well if the Dihydrogen Monoxide doesn't get you, stupidity will!:D

Manic Moran

InFront wrote:

Well if the Dihydrogen Monoxide doesn't get you, stupidity will!:D

Is the "Mon" redundant? I could be wrong.

NTM

spank_inferno

fly_agaric wrote:

I just read something about the US destroying a satellite with a ballistic missile. I am outraged...

Those fascistic Amerikans and their engines of death and destruction commanded by Emperor Cheney and his evil apprentice the Chimp of Satan!

Violating the black hymen of outer-space with their phallic rocket-bombs made possible by the evil sciences of Dead White Males! Extending the aggressions and rivalries of earth out into the sacred vastness of the cosmos!

I say down with the capitalist running dogs and neoimperial exploiters!
Down with the Amerikan Yankee capitalist running dogs!

Wow! I mean seriously if you substitute anything refering to america above with anything refering to a sub-saharan african state we'd all cry racist.

Arent you lucky the americans pioneered the internet thus giving you a medium for your unfounded xenophobic crap! But I'm sure the pinko hoards of boards.ie have no problem with making up stories about america just to have a go at them.

Sponge Bob

You know! I detect irony in Fly Agarics comments .

I hope fly agaric doe not answer you in person.... him being the capitalist roadster hallucinogen ridden running dog that he is !

Manic Moran

Interesting. Two entirely different comments have just gone right over two different people's heads in as many pages...

NTM

Sponge Bob

The Chinese have now admitted that they launched the interceptor .

Lets track back just a tad. The US released its strategic master vision a few years back, a copy is available here. This had apparently been policy for awhile before its release.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/space-command-plan-fy2004.pdf

and contains the following gems

page 19

"Space superiority is essential to or vision of controlling space"

page 26

"the Presidents national space policy ...require(s) development of negation capabilities

The presidents policy was further amended in late 2006 .

copy here

The US will

page 2

"deny adversaries the use of space capabilities "

page 2

"enable unhindered US operations in and through space"

page 4

Develop capabilities, plans, and options to ensure freedom of action in space, and, if directed, deny such freedom of action to adversaries

All of this will cost money . All of this will require funding votes in Congress. Most importantly all of this was predicated on the maintenance of a unique capability which assumption no longer exists.

While it would still be difficult for the Chinese to hit a sat in an unpredictable orbit such as a photo recon sat they have tested a different method for dealing with them. They have fired lasers at them to blind them. the US now cannot assume unhindered and continous comms and radar capability any more. To make it worse pretty well every sat that is now vulnerable passes through Chinese airspace very regularly....daily even.

TYpically the US only has 4 radar sats and 4 photo sats in operation at any given time.

Its quite a nasty shock to the system :eek: and it will be very very expensive to fix it or work around it .

Congress will not be amused. This is what they were told last year about China

page 43

"Beijing continues to pursue an offensive anti-satellite system."

"China..can currently destroy or disable satellites..only by launching ...... a nuclear weapon."

and the ground based laser gets a mention.

lostexpectation

satillites can be stationary and they can orbit right, if say ireland put up an orbit satillite to track lepreachauns it would pass over dozens of other countries, does the US want to be able to spy/pass satillites over China as it see it is its right to do so

Sponge Bob

sure they pass over ireland every night lacrosse 5 is up there as I type

Lacrosse 5

17:24:50 10° WNW
17:29:10 57° N
17:34:08 10° E

its an object clearly visible to the naked eye moving west - east in that time.

Lacrosse 4 will visit at 7 and 8.30 again, see here

http://www.heavens-above.com/