Collusion confirmed.

InFront

Tristrame wrote:

Remember the Gardaí don't have a history of singling out one large section of the community in the 26 counties for harassment.

Sorry just saw this point and thought I'd respond. I realize that we're talking about very different situations, but actually I would argue that those Irish Muslims who have had their homes raided at the behest of the Irish Special Branch would beg to differ with your suggestion.

If you remember as far back as the weeks after September the 11th, when three irish Muslims including as it happens one neighbour of mine were held in Dublin for about three days for no particular reason whatsoever. Well, one guy had a switch in his house which apparently could have been used to make a bomb, one newspaper whichI believe was the Irish Times even said "nuclear bomb".
But as someone who must have been terribly well-read and otherwise intelligent pointed out, that could also have been used to fix a kettle, and he was actually an electrical engineer... anyway no charges were brought, but this sort of behaviour is till going on.

There have been dozens and dozens of raids on Irish Muslims recently, it was the topic on a Prime Time Investigates programme a few months back. What has come of the raids? Nothing.

And more to the point, what about when this goes on to a much greater degree in the UK, where they have the possibility of internment of foreign Nationals without trial?

Those people would probably say they have a good reason to be sick of the raids/ special treatment at the hands of the police and are being unfairly targeted because of their nationalities/ religion. But that's life, it's tough luck.

Would you be thankful to them for accepting the rule of law? Would you be gracious that they don't go off and set up a paramilitary organisation? No, you would, and should, expect observation of the law and of democracy notwithstanding their treatment.

Jackie laughlin

Voipjunkie wrote:

Of course the struggle was not about religion so the number of Catholics killed is irrelevant as it would include British Soldiers, RUC members, Judges, Informers, their own members killed accidentally,etc the IRA were not killing them because they were catholic so their religion is irrelevant.

The report concerns collusion between police and murderers to kill catholics/nationalists. Don't be silly, of course "the struggle" was about religion. You are now advancing the view that the SFIRA murder of Catholics was confined to "legitimate targets". (All these inverted commas! Did SFIRA teach George Bush to speak?) Now that I think of it, was the man they murdered at Canary Wharf a Sikh? OOps, sorry! His religion is irrelevant because he was "collateral damage".

The point is that it behoves SFIRA murderers to remain quiet because they are in no position to condemn other murderers.

LordSutch

Upon reading this thread, some people might be forgiven for thinking that the IRA & Sinn Fein were "The Good Guys" ...............................

Of course collusion took place between (some) members of the police force and the UVF, but there must have been collusion going on all over the place & on all sides, it really was 'open season' up there for about twenty years, with bombs going off on a weekly basis, police men being shot dead every other day, Car bombs, Bus bombs, Pub bombs, back alley beatings, Knee cappings, mostly perpetrated by the (IRA & the INLA) on one side and to a lesser extent by the UVF/ UFF on the other! (scum bags all)

I am not surprised for one minute that some bent & (desperate) coppers did gain info on certain Republican sympathisers in an un-orthodox & illegal way, it must have been sheer Hell up there for the Police, and although I dont condone 'collusion' involving the police, I can understand why some (weaker members) felt compelled to bend the rules in order to gain the upper hand, after all, the IRA had to be defated (at any cost) ?

Botany Bay

ArthurF wrote:

Upon reading this thread, some people might be forgiven for thinking that the IRA & Sinn Fein were "The Good Guys" ...............................

Of course collusion took place between (some) members of the police force and the UVF, but there must have been collusion going on all over the place & on all sides, it really was 'open season' up there for about twenty years, with bombs going off on a weekly basis, police men being shot dead every other day, Car bombs, Bus bombs, Pub bombs, back alley beatings, Knee cappings, mostly perpetrated by the (IRA & the INLA) on one side and to a lesser extent by the UVF/ UFF on the other! (scum bags all)

I am not surprised for one minute that some bent & (desperate) coppers did gain info on certain Republican sympathisers in an un-orthodox & illegal way, it must have been sheer Hell up there for the Police, and although I dont condone 'collusion' involving the police, I can understand why some (weaker members) felt compelled to bend the rules in order to gain the upper hand, after all, the IRA had to be defated (at any cost) ?

I almost despair when i read this, that the mitigating circumstances of the Northern troubles and the countless murders is justification for a police force to behave the way they did. I can almost understand the Unionist mindset of complete denial regarding the activities of the RUC and UDR during the troubles,as far as they were concerned, they were defending the unionist community. Impartial judgement, objectivity and a lack of bias by the police force didn't seem to matter when members of their community were being killed by the IRA. However for somebody looking on from the outside, what the RUC and UDR did during the last 30 years in particular was no different from the actions of the police forces in apartheid South Africa and the Southern states of the US during the 1950's and 60's

Collusion was not some random abnormality in Northern Ireland, it was extremely common. This recent report covers merely one area in Belfast, one unit in the UVF and during a period of only 13 years. What makes you think this is unique? When the Ferns report was released documenting child abuse among priests in one particular diocese. No one in their right mind would have suggested that it was a 'blip' and that it more likely suggested a deep widespread malaise within the Catholic Church. The same applies here, collusion was widespread, it came from the top, down. The heads of special branch knew about it and didn't bother to co-operate with the various inquiries, the UDR were considerably worse and it may be prudent to examine their actions too. Your claim that the IRA had to be defeated at all costs is worrying, do you mean civilians being killed, and informers being protected is justified? If the police force, who are meant to be impartial are commiting the same crimes in the same gruesome manner as the IRA, how can that be justified, it makes them no better than the IRA. Their job is to uphold the law, not wage vendetta/vigilante campaigns of their own by colluding with "their own" terrorists. It's amazing that someone like yourself who would quite righty condemn and denounce murder by the IRA, would seek to empathise with members of the RUC who decided to engage in this type of behaviour, collusion/murder!! Is your hatred of the IRA so great that you fail to see the atrocities and crimes of the other side and condemn them as vehemently as you would the IRA??!

Jackie laughlin

I agree. The police must uphold the law no matter what the murderers do.

tallus

I agree too, good post botany bay.

LordSutch

Just to clarify some points from my previous Post #124.

“I dont condone 'collusion' involving the police”
“(some) members of the police force”
“some bent & (desperate) coppers”
“un-orthodox & illegal way”
“the IRA had to be defeated (at any cost) ?” < please note the question mark

Sorry if I gave the impression that I agreed with Police collusiuon (I dont)! and I think that those members of the now disbanded RUC should be brought to book (justice).

Hope this clarifies my point of view.

csk

Botany Bay wrote:

I almost despair when i read this, that the mitigating circumstances of the Northern troubles and the countless murders is justification for a police force to behave the way they did. I can almost understand the Unionist mindset of complete denial regarding the activities of the RUC and UDR during the troubles,as far as they were concerned, they were defending the unionist community. Impartial judgement, objectivity and a lack of bias by the police force didn't seem to matter when members of their community were being killed by the IRA. However for somebody looking on from the outside, what the RUC and UDR did during the last 30 years in particular was no different from the actions of the police forces in apartheid South Africa and the Southern states of the US during the 1950's and 60's

Collusion was not some random abnormality in Northern Ireland, it was extremely common. This recent report covers merely one area in Belfast, one unit in the UVF and during a period of only 13 years. What makes you think this is unique? When the Ferns report was released documenting child abuse among priests in one particular diocese. No one in their right mind would have suggested that it was a 'blip' and that it more likely suggested a deep widespread malaise within the Catholic Church. The same applies here, collusion was widespread, it came from the top, down. The heads of special branch knew about it and didn't bother to co-operate with the various inquiries, the UDR were considerably worse and it may be prudent to examine their actions too. Your claim that the IRA had to be defeated at all costs is worrying, do you mean civilians being killed, and informers being protected is justified? If the police force, who are meant to be impartial are commiting the same crimes in the same gruesome manner as the IRA, how can that be justified, it makes them no better than the IRA. Their job is to uphold the law, not wage vendetta/vigilante campaigns of their own by colluding with "their own" terrorists. It's amazing that someone like yourself who would quite righty condemn and denounce murder by the IRA, would seek to empathise with members of the RUC who decided to engage in this type of behaviour, collusion/murder!! Is your hatred of the IRA so great that you fail to see the atrocities and crimes of the other side and condemn them as vehemently as you would the IRA??!

That's a great post.

ArthurF wrote:

Just to clarify some points from my previous Post #124.

“I dont condone 'collusion' involving the police”
“(some) members of the police force”
“some bent & (desperate) coppers”
“un-orthodox & illegal way”
“the IRA had to be defated (at any cost) ?” < please note the question mark

Sorry if I gave the impression that I agreed with Police collusiuon (I dont)! and I think that those members of the now disbanded RUC should be brought to book (justice).

Hope this clarifies my point of view.

This clarification does not mean much, you deliberately left the original post ambiguous. Botany bay's post was spot on.

One qusetion though who exactly were the good guys ?

axer

csk wrote:

One qusetion though who exactly were the good guys ?

There were no good guys involved in the troubles up north.

The PSNI/RUC should have been the good guys but they instead they helped create the problems.

axer

ArthurF wrote:

and I think that those members of the now disbanded RUC should be brought to book (justice).

Does that include those currently serving in the PSNI that did not cooperate or blatenly lied during the O'Loan investigation?

LordSutch

yes ...................
By the way Axer, you have just mis-quoted me in Post #131

FTA69

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Anyone who has ever been a member of a terrorist organisation should be barred from public office. Indeed they should be shunned by the people of Ireland.

Surely then you would be disenfranchising the good people of Mid-Ulster, Louth and Kerry North?
And as for not taking seats in Westminister, how are they "depriving their constituants" when the vast majority of these vote for Sinn Féin on an abstentionist ticket?

RedPlanet

Anyone who has ever been a member of a terrorist organisation should be barred from public office. Indeed they should be shunned by the people of Ireland.

Well i'm sure we're all glad those weren't the prevailing sentiments in South Africa.

Erin Go Brath

Botany Bay's post above sums it up excellently!

Collusion is a lot more widespread in the north, than whats included in O Loans report. Other examples include: http://www.rense.com/general74/edge.htm

The PSNI are the police force of Northern Ireland, they are there to protect the entire communitity of the 6 counties. Lets hope they do a better job from now on, than the RUC, who've certainly let one half of the community down!

LordSutch

As a matter of fact, the vast majority of Police officers serving with the now disbanded RUC, were indeed fine Police officers operating in appalling conditions, and this has been publicly acknowledged by such people as Nula O'Loan, Tony Blair, Seamus Mallon, Michael McDowell and and many others...........

So please, lets not get the impression that All members of the RUC were 'Bad Apples'...........some were.

Victor

axer wrote:

There were no good guys involved in the troubles up north.

Actually, there were lots.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The report concerns collusion between police and murderers to kill catholics/nationalists. Don't be silly, of course "the struggle" was about religion. You are now advancing the view that the SFIRA murder of Catholics was confined to "legitimate targets". (All these inverted commas! Did SFIRA teach George Bush to speak?) Now that I think of it, was the man they murdered at Canary Wharf a Sikh? OOps, sorry! His religion is irrelevant because he was "collateral damage".

The point is that it behoves SFIRA murderers to remain quiet because they are in no position to condemn other murderers.

The conflict was not about religion

Religion is a way to usually identify what side someone was on unionist or nationalist but there were plenty of catholics who were unionists just as there were protestants who were nationalist.

The conflict was not about which religion was better or worse in that regard religion played no part.

Head counting who killed more catholics or protestants (or Sikhs for that matter) is a useless exercise as it says nothing about the cause or nature of the conflict. I am not advancing the position that PIRA only killed Legitimate targets my point was that a crude head count hides the actual stories which are far more complex. That is why I was pointing out that just counting people as catholic or protestant ignores the fact that they may have been killed for very different reasons. For example counting the Hunger strikers and people killed on bloody friday as Catholic victms of the IRA is patent nonsense. The situations of their death are very different and lumping them into statistics like who killed more catholics tells us nothing of the differences

In fact the collusion that brought about this report was the murder of a loyalist by loyalists.

Zambia

Folks I would like to ask something here , along the lines of my last post.

The Murder of Jerry McCabe by the IRA was wrong , his killers are still not freed by the Irish State. There is a public outcry every time they are within a mile of being released. However the killers of several RUC officers walked under the GFA.

So do you honestly believe that if there had been 318 Garda killed by the UVF/UDA in this same manner that there would not have been a large element of the force resort to under hand tactics. In that same context the SAP in South Africa felt under the same pressure along with every other police force in the world under heavy attack.

The Gardai's very first recruits where indeed active in collusion.

From Wickepidea
Some regular RIC men resigned in protest at the often brutal tactics of the new recruits. Others co-operated with the IRA either out of conviction or out of fear for their lives. A raid on an RIC barracks in Cookstown, County Tyrone, in June of 1920, was carried out with the help of sympathetic RIC men. The barracks in Schull, County Cork, was captured with similar aid. In October of 1920

These are the same Police officers that where recruited into the Gardai.
Some RIC men joined the Garda Síochána, having assisted the IRA in different ways. (See below)

Many have branded the RUC as acting unlawfully and if these reports are true then they have. But I have to submit they acted so in the same manner any force under that degree of attack would have done.

The RUC was a one sided force prior to the emergence of the IRA. However lets be clear here several RIC officers where murdered at the changing of power in 1922 which would have been a factor in how they saw there future under Possible Irish rule. The unionist camp can easily argue the refusal of Northern Catholics to join created this imbalance.

From Wickepedia
Many RIC men went north to join the new RUC. This resulted in a force that was originally 40% Catholic. However, this percentage fell to 8% as these men eventually reached retirement and were not replaced by northern Catholics, who largely rejected the RUC's strongly unionist ethos. Some RIC men joined the Garda Síochána, having assisted the IRA in different ways. Many retired and the Free State agreed to pay their pensions. Others however, faced with threatened or actual violent reprisals, fled with their families to Britain

Wickepedia Article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Irish_Constabulary

Folks , all I am saying is before you pass judgement imagine how it would be to walk in another mans boots for a while. I put it out there that any force under this kind of pressure would have some of it members act in the same manner British , Irish or otherwise.

RedPlanet

oh riight...
So basically it's the Catholic/nationalists own fault for not joining the police once the Northern Statelet was founded huh?
Sure it's got nuthing at all to do with discrimination.
Nope, NI was never a "Protestant Parliment for a Protestant People".
I'm sure it was those taigs own fault for getting discriminated against in all other areas of the 6 county statelet too, like housing and employment. :rolleyes:

Zambia

RedPlanet wrote:

oh riight...
So basically it's the Catholic/nationalists own fault for not joining the police once the Northern Statelet was founded huh?
Sure it's got nuthing at all to do with discrimination.
Nope, NI was never a "Protestant Parliment for a Protestant People".
I'm sure it was those taigs own fault for getting discriminated against in all other areas of the 6 county statelet too, like housing and employment. :rolleyes:

You have completly lost the piont, I said that it could be argued, if no catholics joined the police , then you will get a wholly protestant force. Seems a simple issue of numbers nothing more.

Everything else in your post is pure ranting for rantings sake. I am not denying there was discrimination in the past.

Your attitude and choice of words merely attempts a continuation of it in the future.

csk

Zambia232 wrote:

The unionist camp can easily argue the refusal of Northern Catholics to join created this imbalance.

Zambia232 wrote:

Seems a simple issue of numbers nothing more.

Zambia232 I don't know if you would be a Unionist but your post does seems to lean that way and going on that, the above two quotes seem to me anyway, as the vile epitome of Unionism.

Have you ever asked yourself why there was a Provisional IRA in the first place, why they targeted RUC men ? Have you ever asked yourself why the same number of Gardaí were not murdered ?

The problem in the north was always down to the attitude that is prevalent in Unionism maybe even the only reason it exists and that is as the song goes to make"croppies lie down". This attitude was what led to social discrimination, economic discrimination and the State discrimination. Catholics regardless of whether they were Unionist or not were treated like they were enemies of the northern statelet from its very beginning. Is it any wonder they withdrew from a state that deliberatly wanted to keep "A foot on the necks of the croppy" i.e. Irish Nationalists ? Arthur F deliberately ambiguous post shows, it seems, this attitude has not completely disappeared, he implies the RUC "were the good guys" and that the Provisional IRA had to be "stopped at all costs ?"

I have no doubt that there were indeed "good guys" in the RUC, the exact same that I'm sure there were "good guys" in the Provisonal IRA (yes shock horror), the same I'm sure there were "good guys" in the UVF (the recently departed David Irvine being feted as such by some).

Unionism would have us believe this is not the case, that the world is a simple black and white place, where people are pigeon holed into neat good and bad categories. When challenged on this world view Unionism usually retreats to two defensive arguments, the whiny "why can't ye just see it from our point of view" and the "numbers game" where the numbers in question will usually be some kind of sectarian head count (which tells it's own story really).

I'm sorry Zambia232, but whether it was one or one thousand officers that colluded with muder gangs is irrelevant the fact still remains that the decrepit attitude of Unionism crept into the "impartial" police force and that innocent people were murdered as a result of this rancid attitude.

Zambia

csk wrote:

Zambia232 I don't know if you would be a Unionist but your post does seems to lean that way and going on that, the above two quotes seem to me anyway, as the vile epitome of Unionism.

Would not class myself as a Unionist, however from the above description I have little doubt where you stand.

csk wrote:

Have you ever asked yourself why there was a Provisional IRA in the first place, why they targeted RUC men ? Have you ever asked yourself why the same number of Gardaí were not murdered ?

Ok the PIRA was a response , however your side stepping the actual question I asked and spouting more historical data which I have not disputed. If the PIRA succeeded in its struggle and won a united Ireland. leaving a very disinfranchised Unoinist movement who then turned into the exact same organisation as the PIRA. Started killing members of the Gardai with as much resolve and in as many numbers. Do you see the Gardai refraining from these tactics(collusion) and not even 1 Garda deciding to collude with IRA death squads? Given the daily attacks they would be subjected to when every other Police force faced with this has.

csk wrote:

I'm sorry Zambia232, but whether it was one or one thousand officers that colluded with muder gangs is irrelevant the fact still remains that the decrepit attitude of Unionism crept into the "impartial" police force and that innocent people were murdered as a result of this rancid attitude.

Once again all Im saying is that the Gardai or any police force in the same scenario would have had their members resort to these tactics. There is no defence for it but it would be inevitable. The political beliefs of any of these officers would be of little importance it would simply be seen as them or us.

You obivously have loads of issues with Irish people who wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. Maybe one day you should go and ask ones who dont appear on TV where they stand and why.

P.S Dont ask me as I said before not a unionist.

A Dub in Glasgo

Zambia232 wrote:

Started killing members of the Gardai with as much resolve and in as many numbers. Do you see the Gardai refraining from these tactics(collusion) and not even 1 Garda deciding to collude with IRA death squads? Given the daily attacks they would be subjected to when every other Police force faced with this has.

I would be calling for justice for the people killed by these state death squads. Afterall, we are living in a democracy, don't you think?

Zambia

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would be calling for justice for the people killed by these state death squads. Afterall, we are living in a democracy, don't you think?

Exactly ... I have already stated it was unacceptable ..It would however be inevitable.

Its a side effect of the conflict that was the troubles or any conflict like it. I doubt you would be happy with just a report claiming it happened.

Zombrex

Zambia232 wrote:

Exactly ... I have already stated it was unacceptable ..It would however be inevitable.

It was inevitable. The IRA were murdering RUC men on a regular interval. It would be ridiculous to think that none in the RUC would wish to strike back illegally.

That certainly does not justify their actions in anyway though.

LordSutch

Good Post Wicknight & well said.

csk

Zambia232 wrote:

Would not class myself as a Unionist, however from the above description I have little doubt where you stand.

Fair enough whether you're a Unionist or not is irrelevant to the point I was making which you seem to have side stepped. I have already said on this thread and others that I'm simply an Irishman nothing more or less, you can ignore that if you want.

I didn't side step the issue you raised as it is something that I have taken account of long before you raised it, as I said I am sure that there were "good guys" in the RUC.

However you made the point that it "seems a simple numbers issue nothing more". Therefore I think it would be pertinent to explore the reasons why it might have become a "simple numbers issue nothing more".

Your dismissal of this as a "simple numbers issue nothing more" really seems like a mealy mouthed excuse to me and does for all intents and purposes look like you are placing the blame on the nationalists themselves which I think is unfair.

The political beliefs of any of these officers would be of little importance it would simply be seen as them or us.

It would be of huge importance if that political belief was what created the us vs them attitude in the first place, don't you think ?

You obivously have loads of issues with Irish people who wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. Maybe one day you should go and ask ones who dont appear on TV where they stand and why.

I have no issues with anybody on this island whatsoever. What I do have a problem with is the concept that this can be excused because it was inevitable and the apparent attitude that goes with such reasoning.

Zombrex

csk wrote:

I have no issues with anybody on this island whatsoever. What I do have a problem with is the concept that this can be excused because it was inevitable and the apparent attitude that goes with such reasoning.

As Zambia232 ever actually said that it is excused because it was inevitable? As far as I can tell he is saying the exact opposite.

He has already stated a number of times that it was unjustified, unacceptable, and had no defense. So where exactly is the idea that he is excusing the actions of the RUC coming from?

It seems that as soon as anyone attempts to explain any side other than the Republican United Ireland view point that person is rounded on by Republicans on this forum as charged with supporting or justifying the actions of Unionists/British/RUC/Anyone who isn't a Republican.

Zambia

csk wrote:

However you made the point that it "seems a simple numbers issue nothing more". Therefore I think it would be pertinent to explore the reasons why it might have become a "simple numbers issue nothing more".

Your dismissal of this as a "simple numbers issue nothing more" really seems like a mealy mouthed excuse to me and does for all intents and purposes look like you are placing the blame on the nationalists themselves which I think is unfair.

Granted they had reason however you have to admit nationalists withdrawing from the RUC did not help the force remain impartial. There is no way of know where things would have lead had they stayed but IMO it would have helped.

csk wrote:

It would be of huge importance if that political belief was what created the us vs them attitude in the first place, don't you think ?

I would more be of the opinion that a policeman joined and after a few hairy incidents grew the them and us attitude. This is the RUC we are discussing here not the B specials. These people joined to be police officers, if they just wanted to kill nationalists there where other places to join.

csk wrote:

I have no issues with anybody on this island whatsoever. What I do have a problem with is the concept that this can be excused because it was inevitable and the apparent attitude that goes with such reasoning.

Granted lets have less of the descriptives like vile Unionism then shall we. I am not upholding anyones right to murder someone but if a conflict like this errupts then this stuff happen's.

Its no surprise to anyone it did happen so I simply fail to see the benefit of this report. It stirs up the past and leaves it hanging in the wind. If they are going to drag this stuff up I would like to see names and prosecutions following in good time. Its as usefull as someone dragging up a report confirming some members of Sinn Fein where once terrorists.

csk

Wicknight wrote:

As Zambia232 ever actually said that it is excused because it was inevitable? As far as I can tell he is saying the exact opposite.

It is what he/she is implying. Otherwise why bring it up ?

Were the PIRA's actions inevitable too ?