Late nights in a prison lab

mloc

I guess this doesn't affect a lot of people, but for the few people it does affect its a pretty big pain in the ass...

All final year Pharmacology, Biochemistry and Physiology students are required to undertake a 12-16 week research project as part of the year. It's worth 30% of the degree mark. Most of these projects take place in the labs in the Conway Institute on campus.

During an induction meeting we were issued with swipe cards to access the labs etc, and informed, nay commanded that we cannot be present in the building past 5 pm. Our cards would cease to function after that time, and we would neither be able to leave or enter the building nor many zones in the building. This includes several bathrooms, eating areas, etc.

Grand. So they're the rules.

Anyway, the practical reality of the projects is that we are required by our supervisors, lecturers and workload to be in the lab after 5 o clock, more often than not. So its technically been demanded of us to break both college rules, instructions and the law. I don't particularly have a problem with that, the lecturers have our interests in mind more than the administrators of the building, and have tried unsucessfully on several occasions to have the rules changed so they are more reality-compatible.

The real problem occurs after 5 o clock, when you need to go for dinner, take piss, get some air, have a smoke, whatever it is that requires leaving the confines of your lab area. And seeing as people are frequently in until 7 pm or later (even 12 am or 1 am in the case of some students), this occurs regularly. Anyway, after struggling to get out of the building by following a phd student with an all access card, you realise you're locked out, possibly by 2 or 3 locked doors, and you can't get back in. An experiment may be running which you need to get back to. Days work might be lost. All because of total ineptitude on the account of the administrative staff.

Several requests have been made to sort this out, even backed by senior lecturers, have all been catagorically denied, due to "insurance reasons".

An aside to this means the 20 euro I spent on a locker in the building is only accessable between 9am to 5 pm, basically while I'm here anyway. I can't put my laptop in there while I go to the gym, I cant put gym stuff in there if I go off for dinner, its basically useless.

The whole thing is really a pretty crap situation, especially for those guys who are here really late, like after 9pm. They are basically imprisoned in thier labs, forced to finish project work under deadlines, whilst then being told thier not allowed to be here by admin staff. It's a final year, not some less serious first year issue, and these are degree marks were talking about.

What can be done about it? God only knows.

Red Alert

this is the sort of carryon that occurs when buildings and their admins are allowed to set their own rules. i'm sure (like the eng building) there is much confidential and potentially dangerous research ongoing there. the only time u need a key for eng is after 10pm and before 8am in the morning. apart from that it's a free-for-all apart from labs which are independently locked.

similarly it's not quite right that the quinn school can unilaterally decide that its facilities are unavailable for use by societies after hours (and apparently it's ok for them to come over here to use our rooms etc).

what is with the major security focus in conway - it all seems just a bit too much?

themole

There issues with theft etc to take into account.

A PhD student is more likely to know the other users of the building and hence less likely to let someone in who shouldn't be there than a 4th year.

Insurance issues must also be taken into account, restricting access to buildings and limiting the number of users with access should reduce insurance costs.

Some departments take the view of 9-5 operation. Which may suite them.

In the op's situation it may sound unfair, but obviously the lecturers did not make enough of an argument for extended access for 4th years and hence it should just be taken that thats all the time thats available.

I would advise getting your class reps to organise a meeting with the school head to discuss the matter. Each school has its own reasons for deciding on these things, maybe they are being unreasonable, or maybe the lecturers are giving more work than can be done in the allocated time.

mloc

themole wrote:

what is with the major security focus in conway - it all seems just a bit too much?

I can appreciate the fact that access cards are needed for the building. Apart from the usual wide array of dangerous chemicals present, there are other more unique hazards.

There are many high-profile, EU funded research projects at work that are sensitive to disturbance and take place in an environment that requires training before entry can be permitted. This applies particularly to areas when live bacteria or viruses are used, not only for people's safety, but also for the safety of the samples, which are amazingly sensitive to thier environments. There is also commercial research taking place in the building with its own particular security needs.

There is also the threat of theft, as many of the antibodies etc. in the labs are valuable. A small blue box of antibodies in a fridge in a lab could cost over €10,000 to replace if stolen.

Finally, and probably the most significant reason, is the use of animal testing in the institute. Rats, guinea pigs and rabbits are used on a daily basis and this presents a threat from extreme animal welfare loonies. I can guarantee you that these animals are very well looked after, and that the research they are used for is usually of great medical interest. Others might not share that view, and may go to destructive lengths to share thier own opinions.

For these reasons, I completely understand the need for security.

themole wrote:

A PhD student is more likely to know the other users of the building and hence less likely to let someone in who shouldn't be there than a 4th year.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. Some, indeed most, PhD students, especially those who have not performed thier undergraduate studies in UCD, will know far less students and lecturers than a 4th year undergradute.

Insurance issues must also be taken into account, restricting access to buildings and limiting the number of users with access should reduce insurance costs.

I realise this is relevant theory, however, in practice it is unavoidable for many students to regularly be in the building after 5 pm. They don't want to be there, I can assure you, but the demands of the work in progess make it unavoidable. Admin is surely aware of this.

Some departments take the view of 9-5 operation. Which may suite them.

Due to the unpredicatable nature of many laboratory activities, there is no real hours of operation in the Conway Institute. I know of PhD students and research fellows how have had to stay overnight, due to experimental conditions. There is even a bed and shower in the building to facilitate these events.

In the op's situation it may sound unfair, but obviously the lecturers did not make enough of an argument for extended access for 4th years and hence it should just be taken that thats all the time thats available.

I would advise getting your class reps to organise a meeting with the school head to discuss the matter. Each school has its own reasons for deciding on these things, maybe they are being unreasonable, or maybe the lecturers are giving more work than can be done in the allocated time.

You're obviously not a science student. That's fine, not everyone is, and not everyone understands how laboratory work functions. Quite often, once you start an experiment, you cannot stop until you reach a particular stage. This may take many hours. Here are two examples, I'll try not to make them too techincal:

a) Student A is performing research involving blood. For this, they need fresh blood samples on an almost daily basis. These samples must be obtained from a volunteer and taken by a qualified doctor. This student must therefore hunt down a willing student (who is not disqualified due to recent drug treatment, even aspirin rules a student out), and hold onto them while they find a doctor. They then must take the blood, and spend 3 hours preparing it before they can begin thier work proper, which may take several more hours.

b) Student B shares equipment with a PhD student. They must wait until it is free before they are able to use it. Once it is free, they must wait to be provided with a rat, spend an hour doing a dissection, wait another one to three hours until the tissue samples have stabilised, and then perform the experiment they need to do. The equipment may not be ready for use until 3 pm, and thus they can only begin work at this time.

Those are just two examples of how long hours are often unavoidable. It's not a case of too heavy a work load, just bad management and administration.

Chakar

So how did you get out of the building when you stayed inside beyond 5pm?

Garret

Red Alert wrote:

similarly it's not quite right that the quinn school can unilaterally decide that its facilities are unavailable for use by societies after hours (and apparently it's ok for them to come over here to use our rooms etc).

when did quinn adminstration ever have to use your rooms?

mloc

Chakar wrote:

So how did you get out of the building when you stayed inside beyond 5pm?

Usually have to wait for someone with full access to leave and leg it through the door when its still open. Same with getting back in.

The problem is you might need to get through 2 or 3 locked doors to get outside.

tribulus

Even as 3rd year undergrad in the Conway I'm often only finished after 5 (labs from 3-6) and we either get some security guy who like sot make a fuss to eventually open the doors or else wait for a lecturer to leave.

It's a joke and I'm genuinely not looking forward to that aspect of final year.

Red Alert

Quinn administration offloads their fair share of society to other faculties and buildings. So their actions affect all the other buildings.

seraphimvc

:eek: i am shocked...:eek:

i like the idea of spending nights at lab(which really makes me think of me as a really cool science student:D )...

but what mloc said really scared me...:(

Do something for that!!!:eek:

or else...our junior will suffer for that later as well...:(

btw,good luck for your final,hope everything goes smooth and well~:)

Sarn

mloc wrote:

There is even a bed and shower in the building to facilitate these events.

Sorry just to point out. The shower is for people who do sports or want to freshen up after a cycle in to work and the bed is actually for blood donations. But yes they have been used for those purposes.

The other thing is that as an undergrad, technically you're supposed to be supervised if you're in after hours. Unfortunately as you pointed out, the nature of the work sometimes requires long hours. On the other hand I've witnessed students wandering in several hours late resulting in a delayed experiment. In my mind out of hours work should be kept to a minimum, you need to study as well.

Just be thankful you're almost finished.

themole

mloc wrote:

Unfortunately, this is not the case. Some, indeed most, PhD students, especially those who have not performed thier undergraduate studies in UCD, will know far less students and lecturers than a 4th year undergradute.

That could be the situation in your case. I am a Computer Science PhD student, and in our dept there are way more research students than undergrads. Around 200 research students.

mloc wrote:

You're obviously not a science student. That's fine, not everyone is, and not everyone understands how laboratory work functions.

Science, but not your kind of science, , so yes I would not be familiar with the kind of lab situations you have.

mloc wrote:

Quite often, once you start an experiment, you cannot stop until you reach a particular stage. This may take many hours. Here are two examples, I'll try not to make them too techincal:

a) Student A is performing research involving blood. For this, they need fresh blood samples on an almost daily basis. These samples must be obtained from a volunteer and taken by a qualified doctor. This student must therefore hunt down a willing student (who is not disqualified due to recent drug treatment, even aspirin rules a student out), and hold onto them while they find a doctor. They then must take the blood, and spend 3 hours preparing it before they can begin thier work proper, which may take several more hours.

b) Student B shares equipment with a PhD student. They must wait until it is free before they are able to use it. Once it is free, they must wait to be provided with a rat, spend an hour doing a dissection, wait another one to three hours until the tissue samples have stabilised, and then perform the experiment they need to do. The equipment may not be ready for use until 3 pm, and thus they can only begin work at this time.

Those are just two examples of how long hours are often unavoidable. It's not a case of too heavy a work load, just bad management and administration.

If that is indeed the case, and i beleive you when you say it is, how hard is it to organise a meeting as i said and say what you just said to me?
Either they will agree with you or point out reasons why they do not agree with your case.

mloc

themole wrote:

That could be the situation in your case. I am a Computer Science PhD student, and in our dept there are way more research students than undergrads. Around 200 research students.

If that is indeed the case, and i beleive you when you say it is, how hard is it to organise a meeting as i said and say what you just said to me?

In our case, the building is used as an undergraduate laboratory area (e.g. 1st - 3rd year) and then as a research and postgraduate lab area, on the upper floors. The 4th year projects usually take place on these upper floors. Because an undergraduate student will be familiar with and have had dealings with a great amount of lectures and indeed phd students (from lab demonstrators), they will know a larger number of people than a phd student who will generally be working in a tight knit group with only one or two lecturers supervising them. I could see how this could be different in a different building however.

Trying to get the whole class together to meet is nigh on impossible, due to people running off immeadiately after the morning lecture to go to thier labs, some of which arent in this building at all. Smaller meetings have taken place with lecturers and the topic has been raised, but the lecturers are still at the mercy of administration and have been unable to do much about it.

themole

mloc wrote:

Trying to get the whole class together to meet is nigh on impossible, due to people running off immeadiately after the morning lecture to go to thier labs, some of which arent in this building at all. Smaller meetings have taken place with lecturers and the topic has been raised, but the lecturers are still at the mercy of administration and have been unable to do much about it.

The only people you need present is your class rep, lecturer or two and school head.

Put your issues to them. Either they listen or they don't. In my view administration is represented by the school head. You need to stress that the situation is unacceptable. But makes sure your case is well laid out.

Sarn

themole wrote:

In my view administration is represented by the school head. You need to stress that the situation is unacceptable. But makes sure your case is well laid out.

While they may have some influence, unfortunately the school heads don't control the running of the Conway. There is an independent building administration. I imagine the negative aspects of increasing access will out weigh any minor positives the student will get and probably goes against health and safety regulations.

mloc

Sarn wrote:

While they may have some influence, unfortunately the school heads don't control the running of the Conway. There is an independent building administration. I imagine the negative aspects of increasing access will out weigh any minor positives the student will get and probably goes against health and safety regulations.

The problem I find here is that the students will be there regardless. They have to finish thier work and for us, not getting the work done and putting degree marks in danger is much more of an issue than some clueless admin guy who really doesn't seem to understand how it works in a lab.

Like I said before, it's not like any of us really want to be there past five. It's just that choice isn't ours, unless we want to sacrifice our degrees.