Revoking citizenship for serious criminals

Time Magazine

Right, so I've ascertained that Irish citizenship may be revoked by the Minister for Justice.

I have concerns about this myself, I think it's probably too heavy-handed and jurisprudentially dodgy, but what say ye to the prospect of introducing the revocation of citizenship for extremely serious offenses?

No right-minded person in this country would accept John Gilligan into their community, barring a miraculous reform. Why don't the community literally reject him from the community, i.e. revoke his citizenship? If said miraculous reform did happen, we could always grant him citizenship.

I'm using John Gilligan as an example of an absolute scumbag that nobody has any respect for. Now that the idea is lodged in your head, let me give another example: repeated rapists. We could say "we'll send you back to prison for twenty five years". Ireland does not have a genuine "life" sentence. Perhaps we could bring that in. But as the ultimate rebuttal to someone, how about removing them of their right to be in the country?

Perhaps the power could be given to the Special Criminal Court, who try Gilligan and other paramilitary-types who are deemed too dangerous to go before a jury. Threatening it on the warring clans in Limerick might not do any harm. It could certainly be a deterrent to what could turn out to be a very messy gun-crime problem.

Unpossible

What do you propose to do with them after you've taken their citizenship? Are you suggesting we ship them off onto some other poor nation? Or do you expect them to stay in Ireland ?

Also what happens to people who don't belong to any country? They can't travel legally (without a passport).

Time Magazine

Unpossible wrote:

What do you propose to do with them after you've taken their citizenship? Are you suggesting we ship them off onto some other poor nation? Or do you expect them to stay in Ireland ?

Also what happens to people who don't belong to any country? They can't travel legally (without a passport).

Quite frankly, I don't know. But citizenship can be revoked, so I presume these things can be taken care of. As such, I'd like this to try steer clear of "what ifs" (as much as possible, I know most arguments start with "what ifs") because I'm working on the assumption that all that can be sorted.

SeanW

That's a pretty big assumption ...

Time Magazine

SeanW wrote:

That's a pretty big assumption ...

Gah! The Minister for Justice has the power to remove citizenship. Let's just say we send them to Iceland. If we're telling them to "feck off, yer not a citizen anymore" it's not a great concern.

Hagar

Why would any other country allow such a person entry?

SeanW

Yeah, I can just hear the "Thank you for dumping your scumbags on us" letter from Iceland ... nothing against revoking citizenship of people who are enemies of the state like Gilligan etc, but what exactly do you do with them? That's a pretty big flaw in your plan.

If it's "not our concern" anymore, the person becomes what's called a stateless person, and there's a whole bunch of international conventions on that.

county

Ibid wrote:

Right, so I've ascertained that Irish citizenship may be revoked by the Minister for Justice.

I have concerns about this myself, I think it's probably too heavy-handed and jurisprudentially dodgy, but what say ye to the prospect of introducing the revocation of citizenship for extremely serious offenses?

No right-minded person in this country would accept John Gilligan into their community, barring a miraculous reform. Why don't the community literally reject him from the community, i.e. revoke his citizenship? If said miraculous reform did happen, we could always grant him citizenship.

I'm using John Gilligan as an example of an absolute scumbag that nobody has any respect for. Now that the idea is lodged in your head, let me give another example: repeated rapists. We could say "we'll send you back to prison for twenty five years". Ireland does not have a genuine "life" sentence. Perhaps we could bring that in. But as the ultimate rebuttal to someone, how about removing them of their right to be in the country?

Perhaps the power could be given to the Special Criminal Court, who try Gilligan and other paramilitary-types who are deemed too dangerous to go before a jury. Threatening it on the warring clans in Limerick might not do any harm. It could certainly be a deterrent to what could turn out to be a very messy gun-crime problem.

i`m sorry but i find it hard to believe that irish citizenship can be revoked on an individual born in ireland,to me that is quite fairy tale.i would be all for revoking citizenship to people not born in this country though

Time Magazine

Looks like seamus got it wrong!

*Points and blames*

The_Minister

Actually, while I don't think McDowell (or any other minister) would do it, there wouldn't be a problem in shipping them off. Under international law, if you have no citizenship (ie. born at sea), then you are the nationality of the first country that you arrive at. Ship them to Iceland, and they become Icelandian.
I love when boards makes you think about something in a weird way.

EDIT: Damn. There goes that hypothesis

Unpossible

Ibid wrote:

Let's just say we send them to Iceland.

lol, I can just see it the minister for justice siting in his office with a pipe and glass of brandy in each hand

Aide; Minister what will we do with all these people we made nation-less
Minister; pffft details details, don't bother me with details or what ifs
Aide: but sir
Minister: sigh, ok lets see *takes a sip of brandy* Iceland
Aide: Iceland?
Minister: Iceland *puffs pipe twice*
Aide: Why sir thats brilliant
Minister: Thats why I am minister for ....
Aide: Justice
Minister: Justice, yes, and you are but an aide
Aide: but sir what
Minister: Ah ah ah, just make it so


edited because I don't english spell good

Kingsize

Ibid wrote:

No right-minded person in this country would accept John Gilligan into their community, barring a miraculous reform. Why don't the community literally reject him from the community, i.e. revoke his citizenship? If said miraculous reform did happen, we could always grant him citizenship.

I can think of much worse Scumbags than John Gilligan

sceptre

Ibid wrote:

I have concerns about this myself, I think it's probably too heavy-handed and jurisprudentially dodgy, but what say ye to the prospect of introducing the revocation of citizenship for extremely serious offenses?

I think it's potentially the thin edge of a wedge I wouldn't like to see used. And I don't think it would actually achieve anything except settle some righteous indignation. I'm fine with an element of proportional justice but not of mere retributive justice for its own sake.

InFront

I agree, Even if it were legally possible, I can't see how it would be a constructive move. It would be a spiteful kick in the ass as opposed to a disciplining one.
If nothing else it is essentially the state's obligation to punish them accordingly, not load them off onto someone else. I would rather see irish criminals locked up in irish prisons than jeopradise international co-operation for their sake.

Interesting to learn about the possibility of having naturalised citizenship revoked. Are there any examples of this? I imagine the offence would have to be very serious indeed.

Jackie laughlin

The idea of punishment which would deem someone a second class citizen is novel and interesting. This is quite different to daft notions about deportation. We now have a sex offenders register. We could have other registers. A person convicted could have many citizen liberties withdrawn, e,g. the vote, the abilitity to run for public office, their passport, their driving licence, ability to contribute to public controversy etc. Usually non custodial punishments are linked to a kind of offence (e.g. banned from driving for a motoring offence) but there is no compelling reason for such a link. There are perhaps many serious offenders who should be required to "crawl under a stone" and live quietly with their shame.

Lennoxschips

An Irish citizen is an Irish citizen. If they commit a serious crime then they should be dealt with by the Irish justice system and, if convicted, sent to an Irish prison, end of story. That is how a free democracy works.

Jackie laughlin

Lennox,
That's not true. An Irish citizen who commits an offence can have his/her liberty restricted in more ways than being sent to prison.

sovtek

SeanW wrote:

If it's "not our concern" anymore, the person becomes what's called a stateless person, and there's a whole bunch of international conventions on that.

Damn beat me to it.

Zambia

We here in the UK have completly overcrowded our prisons so can we simply take all the worst ones remove all their citizenships and have the PSNI kick them out of the backs of landrovers on the Louth Border.

That single immigration Cop on the top off the M1 wont know whats hit him...

Hagar

Zambia232 wrote:

We here in the UK have completly overcrowded our prisons so can we simply take all the worst ones remove all their citizenships and have the PSNI kick them out of the backs of landrovers on the Louth Border.

So the worst criminals in the UK prison system are British, they must be or you couldn't revoke their citizenship could you? Why would we want them? They're British. Thanks, but no thanks.:D

Dontico

i'm in favour of deporting immigrants you break our laws. even small ones. however, i dont see it posible to revoke someones citizenship, if they were born here. were else could they go? put all the rapists and gang members alone on an island somewhere?

Hobbes

Reading the other thread it appears you are incorrect in what your detailing.

However I recall from a thread a long time ago it is actually almost impossible to become stateless and may be illegal to do so under EU law.

User45701

Id say revoke it for even small things if someone attacks other people 3 times then they are a drain on recorces the only problem is
where the hell can we put them if we revoked there citizenship?

stipey

lol, I can just see it the minister for justice siting in his office with a pipe and glass of brandy in each hand

Aide; Minister what will we do with all these people we made nation-less
Minister; pffft details details, don't bother me with details or what ifs
Aide: but sir
Minister: sigh, ok lets see *takes a sip of brandy* Iceland
Aide: Iceland?
Minister: Iceland *puffs pipe twice*
Aide: Why sir thats brilliant
Minister: Thats why I am minister for ....
Aide: Justice
Minister: Justice, yes, and you are but an aide
Aide: but sir what
Minister: Ah ah ah, just make it so

This is pretty much how I had imagined our esteemed Minister for Justice makes most his decisions.

At least that's how it seems

lostexpectation

Hobbes wrote:

Reading the other thread it appears you are incorrect in what your detailing.

However I recall from a thread a long time ago it is actually almost impossible to become stateless and may be illegal to do so under EU law.

didn't we also say some of the blank panthers are stateless somewhere betweeen haiti and the US

Zambia

Hagar wrote:

So the worst criminals in the UK prison system are British, they must be or you couldn't revoke their citizenship could you? Why would we want them? They're British. Thanks, but no thanks.:D

No we under this theory would re-voke their citzenship and dump them in Southern Ireland. So they would not be British anymore and as their a*s landed in Louth the are all instantly Citizens Of the Irish Republic. We advise you dont let them drink or watch football...:D

Hagar

Ah, I get it now, Fred West, the Krays, Myra Hindley and many more would become Irish if made stateless and dumped in Ireland.

Or did you mean something else?



* If still alive, examples only

Zambia

Hagar wrote:

Ah, I get it now, Fred West, the Krays, Myra Hindley and many more would become Irish if made stateless and dumped in Ireland.

Or did you mean something else?



* If still alive, examples only

Now you have it.

lostexpectation

some guy on newstalk was doing a vox pop, about whether we should have a junior immigration minister

among the questions he ask,
'Do you think we have too many foreign criminals here?'

what a stupid f'ing question.

Hobbes

lostexpectation wrote:

didn't we also say some of the blank panthers are stateless somewhere betweeen haiti and the US

Really? Who where? I cannot find any such information.