Should Irish tax exiles be told to stay away?

Jackie laughlin

Should Irish tak exiles be told to stay away?

InFront

You mean emigrants?
I thought it was just the immigrants that weren't wanted, now it's anyone who leaves as well?

Victor

Whats your opinion?

Jackie laughlin

Irish people who move abroad to avoid paying Irish taxes cannot be deprived of their citizenship and cannot be prevented from entering the country under present laws. However, Irish media certainly should not celebrate their appearance at race meetings etc. Taxpaying citizens should shun them completely. Trade Unionists should consider a decision such as would instruct members not to deal with them.

InFront

The racing industry should have nothing to do with JP McManus?

The JP McManus Pro-Am golf tournament in Limerick to raise about 30 million euro in funds for Irish charities should be shunned?

The Smurfit Business School at UCD should be abandoned by academics and students because its director, Denis O Brien, is tax exile?

The largest international fundraising organization to raising funds to support programs of peace and reconciliation, arts and culture, education and community development in Ireland, "The ireland Fund", should be abandoned because Tony O Reilly is a tax exile?

The Evening Herald, Irish Independent, Sunday Independent, Sunday World and the Irish Daily Star should close down for the same reason?
Independent News and Media, with gross assets of €4.0 billion, turnover of over €1.8 billion and employs over 10,400 people worldwide, should be ignored?

Jackie laughlin

Not quite but the people you mention should be treated with disdain.

Judt

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Not quite but the people you mention should be treated with disdain.

Take their money and run, kinda thing?

Dr_Teeth

Judt wrote:

Take their money and run, kinda thing?

Well, if we take their money at least *some* of it will be taxed. :P

Jackie laughlin

The question is, should people who leave Ireland to avoid paying tax be feted as "personalities" or even as moral peple when they return to visit?

Benedict XVI

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The question is, should people who leave Ireland to avoid paying tax be feted as "personalities" or even as moral peple when they return to visit?

Surely it's up to an individual to have an opinion who is a ‘personality’ or a ‘moral person’.
If you are unhappy with these people being ‘feted as "personalities"’ then don’t take heed of the media or other outlets that fete them as so.

I have no interest in celebrity and as a result I do not read tabloids or watch the entertainment section of the TV 3 news.

It would not make a single bit of difference to me if Tony O’ Reilly, Denis O’ Brien or J.P. McManus were at the Ballinrobe races on a showery April evening.

oscarBravo

I agree with everything Benedict XVI just said.







It's a strange feeling. I'm going to lie down for a while...

purple'n'gold

Benedict XVI wrote:

Surely it's up to an individual to have an opinion who is a ‘personality’ or a ‘moral person’.
If you are unhappy with these people being ‘feted as "personalities"’ then don’t take heed of the media or other outlets that fete them as so.

I have no interest in celebrity and as a result I do not read tabloids or watch the entertainment section of the TV 3 news.

It would not make a single bit of difference to me if Tony O’ Reilly, Denis O’ Brien or J.P. McManus were at the Ballinrobe races on a showery April evening.

J P McManus is a gentleman of the highest order. And would be appalled if anyone described him as a celebrity. He donates huge amounts of money to charity most of it anonymously. He is a great ambassador for everything that is good in Ireland.

Judt

Hands up who in Ireland enjoys being taxed......... We're a nation of tax haters if ever there was one, so the government streamlined the process and made it automatic. I'm in the US at the moment and all around there's software to help you save money on your taxes, which you file yourself. If they had that for everyone in Ireland I daresay we'd all be able to quote tax laws and loopholes by rote... Therefore I don't subscribe to the idea of automatically condemning someone who has earned a lot of money for seeking the best way to manage that money; particularly if he or she happens to provide for the Irish economy in other ways (IE their business is in Ireland.)

silverharp

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Irish people who move abroad to avoid paying Irish taxes cannot be deprived of their citizenship and cannot be prevented from entering the country under present laws. However, Irish media certainly should not celebrate their appearance at race meetings etc. Taxpaying citizens should shun them completely. Trade Unionists should consider a decision such as would instruct members not to deal with them.

You have the cart before the horse, there is nothing moral about taxation, it is not a religious duty, you pay the minimum that the law allows. BTW if income tax ever goes back to what we had in the 70's I would feel wholly justified in EVADING tax as opposed to avoiding it.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Irish people who move abroad to avoid paying Irish taxes cannot be deprived of their citizenship and cannot be prevented from entering the country under present laws. However, Irish media certainly should not celebrate their appearance at race meetings etc. Taxpaying citizens should shun them completely. Trade Unionists should consider a decision such as would instruct members not to deal with them.

o be honest I think that's just jealousy. If you had €1billion+ in assets, you'd structure it so as to minimize your tax liability if you had any sense at all.

Terry

Good old Irish begrudgery.
Man makes something of himself, makes a lot of money, government decides to make him pay more tax, man moves abroad, the begrudgers come out in force.
I'm surprised Bono hasn't been mentioned yet. That greedy fecker. how dare he leave this country in order to save himself a few million quid. the cheek of him.

Victor

InFront wrote:

The Evening Herald, Irish Independent, Sunday Independent, Sunday World and the Irish Daily Star should close down for the same reason?

Do you promise? Pleeeeeeaaase!!!!!!

Sleepy

I honestly believe that tax exiles should have their passports and citizenship revoked.

If you're not prepared to pay your share of tax in your country, I don't believe you have any right to a say in it's running.

McManus and his like are scumbags imho. If they don't agree with the way the government would spend their tax why don't they help ensure the same muppets aren't elected? Why should they have the right to determine what their tax goes on (if we take their donations to Irish charities as their taxes). I can't determine that my taxes aren't paid to the unemployed/used to fund minister's pet projects in their local communities so why should those with the greatest responsibility to society get to do so? Even at that, I'd love to see an analysis of their 'charity' when contrasted with the tax bills they've dodged.

I'm not a rich bloke but I earn a reasonable salary and pay tax in the higher bracket and do so happily. It's my responsibility as an Irish citizen. Why can't these super-rich 'gentlemen' meet their social responsibilities?

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote:

I honestly believe that tax exiles should have their passports and citizenship revoked.

If you're not prepared to pay your share of tax in your country, I don't believe you have any right to a say in it's running.

My brother hasn't lived in Ireland for the better part of 20 years. Do you feel he should have his passport and citizenship revoked? If not, what's the difference?

Sleepy

Has he emmigrated or is he merely dodging his tax liability? There's a world of a difference imho.

One person is making a new life for themselves elsewhere, another is shirking their social responsibilites.

Kinetic^

julep wrote:

Good old Irish begrudgery.
Man makes something of himself, makes a lot of money, government decides to make him pay more tax, man moves abroad, the begrudgers come out in force.
I'm surprised Bono hasn't been mentioned yet. That greedy fecker. how dare he leave this country in order to save himself a few million quid. the cheek of him.

QFT.

Surely if the system allows such behaviour and you don't like it, you should be angry at the people that implemented it? Do people who take up section 23 property annoy you too?:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Sleepy wrote:

Has he emmigrated or is he merely dodging his tax liability? There's a world of a difference imho.

One person is making a new life for themselves elsewhere, another is shirking their social responsibilites.

Where do you draw the line?

He emigrated in the 1980s - I don't know if you're old enough to remember what income tax was like in those days. Was he making a new life for himself or dodging his tax liabilities?

Kinetic^

Sleepy wrote:

another is shirking their social responsibilites.

What exactly are these social responsibilities?

ambro25

Sleepy wrote:

Has he emmigrated or is he merely dodging his tax liability? There's a world of a difference imho.

News to me :rolleyes:

Put simply, if you change your country of residence, you become liable for tax in that country. Irrespective of whether you sit on €1bn or not.

Everything else is just down to personal € management and circumstances, when assessed under the respective tax laws of the previous country and the next one.

That's why I didn't have to pay VRT on a car I bought in the UK over a year before I moved to IE, and that's also why I had to pay VRT on a car I bought 5 months before I moved to IE. Had I known, I'd have bought that second car a month earlier. :mad:

That's why I used to be liable for tax in France / UK / Lux / many others, but not anymore in any of those for most matters (some remain, depends on what type of assets/where/local tax legislation) and now I'm 'mainly' liable for tax in IE.

Basically, the more assets, and the more jurisdictions in which they're spread, the more complicated it gets.

It's not so simple as "Booo, they don't pay their dues, off with their heads". That's just socialistic/communistic populist nonsense.

EDIT: and when I see (i) how my tax money is being wast...sorry, spent on these shores, considering I can't vote and have anything to say about it, and (ii) how much in profit the current GVT allegedly is in terms of revenue, I really can't see what difference an extra €1bn or so is gonna make. Just more dosh to waste on so-mismanaged-it's-beyond-laughable white elephants around Dublin.

Jackie laughlin

Oscar,
Your brother clearly emigrated in the 80s. Jobs were scarce then, many people went. They are not tax exiles and you know that very well.

Benedict and Oscar, There is no merit in ignorance of any kind. You should be familiar with celebrity culture. It is an important component of today's world.

stepbar

Look lets not be rash here, Ok there are some people who prefer to be "tax exiles", however I think that for the likes of Denis O'Brien and JP McManus its all about saving the few quid so that they can keep those loans paid. I dont believe these lads are as wealthy as we make them out to be. Ballsed up in debt, lots of cash flow = tax exile However the likes of Micheal O'Leary couldnt give a sh1te if he paid tax here there or else where, he's got too much money and doesnt really know what to do with it. Mammy prob told him when he was younger to save for everything you want and dont owe the bank man anything.

Mind you in all seriousness, if I was loaded and paid any more than 20mil in tax a year, id want an itemised bill, seeing the Gov are pritty good as squandering it. Imagine handing over 20 mil to that shower of jokers, sickening :mad:

ambro25

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You should be familiar with celebrity culture. It is an important component of today's world.

Do you buy 'Now' perchance? Can you tell me what B.Pitt and A.Jolie have been up to this week? Seen the latest Prada creation worn by P.Hilton? Which boy band reject has been talked up this week for his come-back then?

Jesus... How much more asinine do you want "today's world" to become ?

oscarBravo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Your brother clearly emigrated in the 80s. Jobs were scarce then, many people went. They are not tax exiles and you know that very well.

I see a suggestion here that "tax exiles" should be stripped of citizenship and passports. In order to do so, it's absolutely necessary to codify the difference between an emigrant and a tax exile - something I've yet to see any clarity on.

Jackie Laughlin wrote:

Benedict and Oscar, There is no merit in ignorance of any kind. You should be familiar with celebrity culture. It is an important component of today's world.

It's a large and growing component of today's world. I completely fail to see its importance.

Jackie laughlin

Tax exiles tend not to emigrate. They come and go from the country in careful compliance with residency rules and/or they maintain funds and/or business out of the country which could be kept here were they not trying to avoid routine taxes which they rest of us pay.

I don't want to pull the thread off topic but to dismiss celebrity culture is wilful ignorance. No, of course I'm not suggesting a detailed knowledge of the lives such people but a general knowledge of the reach and importance of the phenomenon is important. Celebrity creates role models.

Kinetic^

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Celebrity creates role models.

Jade Goody is mine Moving on swiftly......

There's loads of tax exiles out there, some who don't make the headlines, do you think they should be named? and shamed if you're against it?

oscarBravo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Tax exiles tend not to emigrate. They come and go from the country in careful compliance with residency rules and/or they maintain funds and/or business out of the country which could be kept here were they not trying to avoid routine taxes which they rest of us pay.

I'm still looking for a legally valid distinction.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

...to dismiss celebrity culture is wilful ignorance.

Correct.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Celebrity creates role models.

That's not necessarily a good thing.