TDs as messenger boys. (Tony Killeen et al)

mike65

As you probely know TD and Labour Affairs Minister Tony Killeen has been in no end of bother regarding letters sent by his office seeking early releases for dubious charcaters (ie killers and sex offenders). He has said (and I'm inclined to belive him) that on both occasions the letters were sent out to the relevent authorites without his authorisation/knowledge. In the 15 year Killenn has been in office" "he" has sent out some 200,000 letters on behalf of constituents which at an average of say 35 cents per letter has cost us about 70 grand in postage alone!

So whats a TD for exactly, esp a minister? To legistate on affairs of the state or to do errands for narky constituents who'll tell all and sundry TD "X" is a slacker who cares only about 'Mercs and Perks' and not the plain people if he does'nt play the parrish pump politics game.

Mike.

purple'n'gold

I find it incredulous that TD’s write letters to the minister for justice asking for early release for criminals. And to ask for early release for a murderer defies belief. This practise should stop immediately.

LostinBlanch

One drawback to the STV system we run, TDs are in competition with "colleagues" from the same party moreso than candidates from other parties. Sure didn't a gang of canvassers for Mary O'Rourke nearly come to blows with canvassers for Donie Cassidy outside the parish church in a village called Tang in Westmeath over who could canvass there? Of course that was back in the days when they were both TDs. This clientilism has gone on for ages, with TDs having phones in their boots to dole out for votes in the 70's as they would have to wait for up to a year (I think) to get one from the Posts & Telegraphs. Or you had cute hoors like Oliver J Flanagan ringing the county council roads department to find out where they were going to repair roads and then he would go out there and roar loudly that the roads there were in a terrible state and that he was going to do something about it, or his name wasn't Oliver J Flanagan. :rolleyes:

Mind you another view of this is that local councillors don't have much power so people have to petition TDs to get even the smallest jobs done. At least this way the people get to choose all their representatives rather than operating from a list system which leaves it up to the party to determine who gets elected with their share of the vote. It's not perfect, but what system is?

Regarding Tony Killeen and the paedophile representations, no way he should have touched it with a barge pole. Yer man only got a lenient sentence and was trying to squirm out of it. And if anyone believes that he never saw that letter well I know someone in togo who is trying to get €50 million out of the country and he only needs your name, date of birth, pin number and bank details!

purple'n'gold

I have no problem with TD’s doing their thing to get re elected etc. its all part of the game. But they have absolutely no business sticking their noses into criminal justice matters. We have courts to deal with that.

ballooba

purplengold wrote:

I find it incredulous that TD’s write letters to the minister for justice asking for early release for criminals. And to ask for early release for a murderer defies belief. This practise should stop immediately.

Or perhaps TDs should just read the letters they are sending?

Tony Killeen is a disgrace for fobbing the blame off to his workers. Those letters were signed in his name, so he is responsible for what they say.

He freely admitted after the first letter emerged that the buck stops with him. He then proceeded to shift the focus onto his constituency workers.

Jackie laughlin

Has anyone got any ideas as to how PRSTV might be maintained, while putting a stop to clinics, clientelism and all that useless guff? No TD can get for a citizen citizen something to which he or she is not entitled and could not get for him/herself.

Tricity Bendix

Increased constituency sizes could make it more difficult for TDs to act on purely local issues.

Jackie laughlin

Unfortunately increased constituency size lowers the electoral quota, making it possible to be elected by the constituents of a relatively small area. This would tend to motivate candidates to have "clinics" in their little bailiwick.

LostinBlanch

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Has anyone got any ideas as to how PRSTV might be maintained, while putting a stop to clinics, clientelism and all that useless guff?

Jackie,

The only choices are between first past the post and PR systems. I don't think that anyone here bar FF stalwarts would countenance having an FPP system as it is not as representative of the wishes of the electorate. AFAIK FF flew a kite trying to introduce it in the 50's after they lost to Clann Na Gael, but the electorate wouldn't wear it.

The PRSTV system actually works quite well for small constituencies like we have here. Other alternatives would be to have a small number of constituencies for the whole country (maybe one per province) and operate a list system where votes would be for a party rather than an individual, and the party could then allocate the seats to members on the list, or the voter could choose individuals from a particular party list. Also PRSTV allows voters to vote for candidates from multiple parties rather than being allocated on partisan lines. Given the history of the country at the time I think you'll agree that anything that reduced partisanship after the Civil War was a good thing.

As for the clientilism, I think it will always be here, though is lessening (a bit) AFAIK (of course I could be wrong in that ). The likes of citizens information centres etc can give unbiased information, and people are more aware of their rights without having to have a TD or whoever intervene on their behalf. Of course some people will always go to TDs for help. But then again in a system where councillors etc are virtually powerless, people will go to TDs who are in some cases little more than glorified councillors.

So while PRSTV is not a perfect system, it does work; and it has the trust of the public. Despite FFs attempts at subverting it with their electronic voting scam. My own views on that would take us off on another thread entirely!

mike65

List system!?

Mike.

purple'n'gold

mike65 wrote:

List system!?

Mike.

I can’t see any reason to change our electoral system. The problem is with TD’s writing letters to the minister for justice asking for reduced sentences for criminals. The answer is simple; the minister should completely ignore them.

lostexpectation

so what constituency is Killeen who is his secretary? name and shame the person, you could so if its was at his home constituency office she was only a lowly secretary but she is his number 2 so he/she should be fired like in any company

mike65

Bertie Ahern when asked about this managed to draw a parallel with representations with regard to the Birmingham Six!

Mike.

LostinBlanch

mike65 wrote:

List system!?

Mike.

Party list proportional representation, it's a different kind of PR than the STV. I can't remember everything about it from college, but there's a decent enough article on it here.

LIB

gandalf

Personally I think the way forward is the closed list system as well. Take out the cult of personality and the Parish Pump from Irish Politics. Give the parties the opportunity to rate their candidates by skills rather than will they pull in votes in Waterford like that clown Cullen. People would actually have to vote for what the parties stood for and not because X is a nice lad or he got a new changing room for the local GAA club.

ballooba

lostexpectation wrote:

so what constituency is Killeen who is his secretary? name and shame the person, you could so if its was at his home constituency office she was only a lowly secretary but she is his number 2 so he/she should be fired like in any company

Why should Killeen's secretary be responsible for a letter signed in Killen's name?

gandalf

Back on topic I think Killeen has to resign, he has lost all credibility especially with the relevation of the 2nd set of letters. I saw the interview with the mother of the murder victim the other night on RTE and she talked alot of sense, its Killeens office and he should take responsibility for what is coming out of it.

As expected Bertie the limpwristed one has come out saying that he shouldn't resign tonight. Ah well not a surprise given his track record so far. Its lucky that Tony didn't get a free paint job on his gaff, he would have had to go then, Bertie hates free emulsion !!

Nermal

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Has anyone got any ideas as to how PRSTV might be maintained, while putting a stop to clinics, clientelism and all that useless guff?

After an election, TD's are randomly reassigned to a different constituency than the one that elected them. At the next election, they can run in any constituency other than the one they were elected in previously.

ballooba

gandalf wrote:

As expected Bertie the limpwristed one has come out saying that he shouldn't resign tonight. Ah well not a surprise given his track record so far. Its lucky that Tony didn't get a free paint job on his gaff, he would have had to go then, Bertie hates free emulsion !!

I loved Bertie's reaction to that question on TV3 news today. His acting lessons at the Gaiety are doing wonders. He has indignation down to a T. It was the exact same routine as when he was asked about BUPA. Seems to be stock response to a particularly difficult question.

gandalf

Oh dear looks like Tony was actually the TD for Prisoners.

The latest part of this saga, http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1764800&issue_id=15181
bloody bleeding heart liberals in FF eh :rolleyes:

Villain

Ah but as long as the Opposition don't push it nothing will be done, every party has TD's that at one time or another has looked for early release for prisioners, too close to an election to get dirt like that dragged up.

ballooba

irish1 wrote:

Ah but as long as the Opposition don't push it nothing will be done, every party has TD's that at one time or another has looked for early release for prisioners, too close to an election to get dirt like that dragged up.

Pat Breen of FG and of the same constituency as Killeen was recently found to have made representations on behalf of one of the same prisoners.

The difference being that Breen took responsibility for his own actions. Something Fianna Fail seem incapable of doing.

Villain

But how many other FG or Labour TD's have done the same? The only person pushing this story is the media and the victims. I also don't believe McDowell that these letters don't make a difference.

gandalf

Yeah the difference is the FG and Labour guys aren't Government Ministers, Killeen last time I checked is (albiet one that I have never seen do anything at all!).

purple'n'gold

I still cannot understand why the minister just doesn’t tell the letter writers to clear off.

The_Minister

irish1 wrote:

I also don't believe McDowell that these letters don't make a difference.

Why? If this practice is as wide-spread as he suggested, and he knows why the letter was written, then why would he pay attention?

purple'n'gold

The_Minister wrote:

Why? If this practice is as wide-spread as he suggested, and he knows why the letter was written, then why would he pay attention?

I would sincerely hope that no minister for justice would pay any attention to a letter asking for early release for a convicted criminal. The early release of prisoners is a function of the courts and the parole board.

The_Minister

purplengold wrote:

I would sincerely hope that no minister for justice would pay any attention to a letter asking for early release for a convicted criminal. The early release of prisoners is a function of the courts and the parole board.

That's what I thought. I'm almost certain that it is unusual for the minister for justice to interfere with that area.

Villain

gandalf wrote:

Yeah the difference is the FG and Labour guys aren't Government Ministers, Killeen last time I checked is (albiet one that I have never seen do anything at all!).

He's a Junior Minister but I take your point, although there is a quite few current FG and Labour TD's that were Ministers in the past and I wouldn't bet against them having written a few of these letters while they were at cabinet.

@The_Minister, I'm not saying that the letters would ensure the Minister gets involved and early release is given but I don't believe they have no influence at all, I could well be wrong though (wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last:D )

ballooba

purplengold wrote:

I still cannot understand why the minister just doesn’t tell the letter writers to clear off.

Because then they mioght not vote for him.

The_Minister

ballooba wrote:

Because then they mioght not vote for him.

People go to TD.
TD writes letter.
TD recieves **** "fill-in-the-blanks" response
TD shows to voter.
Voter goes away feeling warm and fuzzy because they have helped their father/son/brother.
Most will never know if the minister acted on the letter or if the case just happened to be reviewed anyway. Either way, the TD gets the vote because the TD can just blame it on McDowell.