TDs as messenger boys. (Tony Killeen et al)

Jackie laughlin

Nermal,
That's an interesting idea. The same could be achieved by making it illegal to seek political advice or help of any kind from a TD representing the area in which the voter lives.

Lostinblanch,
I wasn't arguing in favour of abandoning PRSTV. I was wondering how it could be maintained while eliminating clientelism. PRSTV is a good system which allows the voter to decide on candidates while maintaining proportionality.


No TD can get for a citizen citizen something to which he or she is not entitled and could not get for him/herself. However, many - perhaps the majority of - Irish voters don't recognise this. I reckon it would be impossible to be elected without "serving" the constituency.

DadaKopf

mike65 wrote:

List system!?

Mike.

In a list system, the political leadership chooses who sits in the parliament. Therefore, people vote for parties, not candidates. In continental Europe, this suits most because politics is generally divided along class lines, or rural-urban divides.

In STV, people vote for individual candidates. In Ireland, STV was pushed by Sinn Féin for broadly two reasons: firstly, it was in vogue, and secondly, it was well-known that STV increased the size of smaller parties and larger parties, but squeezed down on middle-sized parties. Great if you're leading a grassroots revolution.

Anyway, the Killeen thing. An electoral system is simply a mechanism for transferring votes into seats. These mechanisms are socially embedded, true, but STV cannot be blamed for clientelism. As a letter in the Irish Times today (30 Jan) says

"The truth is that TDs such as Tony Killeen respond to representations not because of the electoral system, but because there is a very real demand for this from Irish voters.

"This demand persists regardless of the electoral system, since clientelism was present well before the adoption of the single transferable vote in 1920."

Malta has STV, but not such a problem with clientelism, and countries like Italy is rife with clientelism despite having a list system.

The problem is Irish people's attitudes towards public service. The problem is Ireland's post-colonial political culture.

Can it change? Yes, but the solution isn't changing the voting system. The solution is public outrage at this level of clientelism. The solution is engaging in a process of transformation through punishing clientelism and changing attitudes. Clientelism is something we get all het up about when talking about 'corruption' in Africa, but we don't really apply the same standards to ourselves.

I read up on STV a lot after a bizarre economics article was published in the IT about changing the voting system last year. Some UCD bodkins were proposing Ireland adopts the German hybrid system. Looking more at STV, though, I was reassured that it's the most democratic of the lot of voting systems. It's more democratic to be able to go to a representative than to channel one's ire, or communicate one's need, through an unweildy party superstructure. But this only means that there are needs for safeguards. Safeguard one: public scrutiny and outrage. Safeguard two: an investigative press that holds politicians to account. Safeguard three: public prosecution. Safeguard four: educating the public and changing attitudes so voters do not demand clientelism.

Jackie laughlin

Of course PRSTV is not the cause of clientelism. However, it facilitates clientelism.

DadaKopf

As much as PR-List could if we had it, since it's Irish parties that are facilitators - machines - of clientelism in Ireland.

Less parties, more tribes.

lostexpectation

ballooba wrote:

Why should Killeen's secretary be responsible for a letter signed in Killen's name?

well killeen said he never saw the letters, is he lying

it seems its his adviser cllr pat daly who should get the sack, he obviously arranged the letters, all the TDS ahve said ah sure this is the wy it goes and it won't be changed so heads must roll for them to get a shock

ballooba

lostexpectation wrote:

well killeen said he never saw the letters, is he lying

it seems its his adviser cllr pat daly who should get the sack, he obviously arranged the letters, all the TDS ahve said ah sure this is the wy it goes and it won't be changed so heads must roll for them to get a shock

The letters would be signed:
P.P. Tony Killeen T.D.,
Cllr Pat Daly.

Or something like that. Effectively meaning they are signed by Tony Killeen.

P.P. indicates Per Pro btw.