Cyclist going round a busy roundabout

Johnny Storm

This morning I saw a near serious accident. Would appreciate your thoughts on who was at fault. At a large two lane roundabout (beside the Graduate pub) I saw a car turning left into Avondale Road. That car was already in the left lane. As the car turned a cyclist kept going straight accross the opening to the road. The car hit the cyclist. My stomach I must say dropped. But the bike was just pushed sideways about 6 inches or so. The cyclist let out a torrent of abuse (understanable in the circumstances) and continued on his way. The car driver was very shocked looking. I'd imagine the cyclist must have a very bruised leg but IMHO is very lucky not to be seriously injured or worse.

Anyway, who is at fault? The car driver was already in the left lane so did not have to check to her left, I'd think? Also there is a cycle lane going all around the outside of the roundabout.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Wishbone Ash

I immediately assumed that the cyclist was at fault until you mentioned a cycle lane around the outside! Any signage indicating right of way/priority etc.?

(I don't think I've ever seen a roundabout with a cycle lane. Sounds like a receipe for disaster :eek:)

Mitch Connor

Cyclist is at fault imo - but according to the way the law works (afaik) technically the driver is at fault.

Mitch Connor

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I immediately assumed that the cyclist was at fault until you mentioned a cycle lane around the outside! Any signage indicating right of way/priority etc.?

(I don't think I've ever seen a roundabout with a cycle lane. Sounds like a receipe for disaster :eek:)

i understood it to mean that there was a cycle lane outside the roundabout, as in on the path/not on the road.

milltown

So was the cyclist on the cycle lane? i.e. crossing the road the car was trying to exit onto. Or was the cyclist on the roundabout in the same lane as the car?
If the former, the cyclist is at fault. If the latter, the car is at fault.

In either case the driver could be done for driving without due care and attention though. Seems unfair if the cyclist is at fault but the driver has a greater duty of care to other road users. I have never heard of a motorist killed by being hit by a bicycle.

Johnny Storm

There is a cycle lane which is basically on the path, beside but not on the roundabout. This cyclist was cycling on the road not the cycle-lane. In fairness the cycle lane would be quite awkward for anyone going around the roundabout - ie would have to stop at each turn off.

Wishbone Ash

Johnny Storm wrote:

There is a cycle lane which is basically on the path, beside but not on the roundabout. This cyclist was cycling on the road not the cycle-lane. In fairness the cycle lane would be quite awkward for anyone going around the roundabout - ie would have to stop at each turn off.

Presumably then, the cyclist would be obliged to give way at each exit?

Johnny Storm

Yes, if he was on the cyclelane (which this guy wasn't.)

Wolverine_1999

Comon, Irish cycling lanes are a joke... I would say both are at fault. The cyclist for being ignorant enough to think he is invincible going around a roundabout (should have watched traffic around him more carefully) and the driver for being ignorant in relation to cyclists (so many **** who have no consideration).

I can do both and have to say that the best cyclists are ones who can drive and the best drivers are those that can cycle. Can you imagine an Irish driver in the middle of Beijing? He would have more kills than in a video game...

Wishbone Ash

Johnny Storm wrote:

Yes, if he was on the cyclelane (which this guy wasn't.)

I just had a look at that roundabout in Google Earth. The cyclist may have entered the roundabout from an road with no cycle lane.

Saruman

Do i understand this correctly? The car approached the roundabout and was in the left hand lane and indicated left to take te first exit? The cyclist came up on his left to go straight through the roundabout (taking the 2nd exit) and the car did not notice and hit him? If thats the way it happened then the car is clearly at fault same as at any junction. Rules of the road are clear and also what you are taught in order to pass your test. Look in your mirror before you start to make a turn to check for cyclists or pedestrians etc.

If on the other hand the car was coming around the roundabout or straight through and was taking the next exit and the cyclist did not stop and yield to traffic on the roundabout and went straight through then its the cyclists fault clearly.

On the other hand if both cyclist and car were both "on" the roundabout and the car was taking the next exit but the cyclist instead of also taking the exit kept on going around and ended up in the path of the car then its more difficult but i would say the cyclist is an idiot for not paying attention but its the car at fault as he should have been prepared for it.

Its simple with cyclists, you treat them as even bigger muppets than other car drivers and be prepared for absolute stupidity and kamikaze manoeuvres and you can usually avoid this kind of thing


Or did this happen another way im not getting?

Johnny Storm

ACtually, the guy cycled up Rochestown avenue on the cyclelane. Then popped off it right in front of my car while I was front of ther queue to get onto the roundabout at Rochestown avenue. In fact if I had pulled out quickly while directing my attention to the oncoming traffic to the right I could have run him over myself :rolleyes:
So he was pretty agressive in his cycling.

Could you post a link to that Google Earth Location, please?

Johnny Storm

Saruman wrote:

Do i understand this correctly? The car approached the roundabout and was in the left hand lane and indicated left to take te first exit? The cyclist came up on his left to go straight through the roundabout (taking the 2nd exit) and the car did not notice and hit him? If thats the way it happened then the car is clearly at fault same as at any junction. Rules of the road are clear and also what you are taught in order to pass your test. Look in your mirror before you start to make a turn to check for cyclists or pedestrians etc.

If on the other hand the car was coming around the roundabout or straight through and was taking the next exit and the cyclist did not stop and yield to traffic on the roundabout and went straight through then its the cyclists fault clearly.

On the other hand if both cyclist and car were both "on" the roundabout and the car was taking the next exit but the cyclist instead of also taking the exit kept on going around and ended up in the path of the car then its more difficult but i would say the cyclist is an idiot for not paying attention but its the car at fault as he should have been prepared for it.

Its simple with cyclists, you treat them as even bigger muppets than other car drivers and be prepared for absolute stupidity and kamikaze manoeuvres and you can usually avoid this kind of thing


Or did this happen another way im not getting?

It was the third case.

Wishbone Ash

Johnny Storm wrote:

Could you post a link to that Google Earth Location, please?

I'm afraid I don't know how to post the images in Google Earth. Some of the other posters may know how. http://earth.google.com/

Saruman

I have seen some cyclists, on a busy roundabout like that move in to the middle of it if they are going around it. Its dangerous, however this event would not have happened had the cyclist done that. Both sides just need to be more careful on a roundabout.
The cyclist should know that not many Irish people actually even understand how to drive on a roundabout. They use the wrong lanes, they drive straight through going through 2 lanes instead of sticking to the one they are supposed to be in... I have ranted before about roundabouts in this country and why very few people seem to understand the basic rules of the roads when it comes to them.

mikedragon32

Driver is at fault. It's driving 101. Mirror, signal, mirror, manouver.

I know the junction you're talking about and used to cycle on it regularly. Like most large roundabouts, for a cyclist you need to be pretty gutsy. I cycled around the Cherry Tree roundabout once and that was once too often. Scary stuff.

The cyclist is clearly a muppet for even trying his move, but the responsibility is on the driver to ensure he is clear to go.

tunney

Saruman wrote:

I have seen some cyclists, on a busy roundabout like that move in to the middle of it if they are going around it. Its dangerous, however this event would not have happened had the cyclist done that.

Its the lesser of two evils. The safest way to deal with Irish drivers at junctions is to occupy the entire lane and to force the drivers to recognise you as a legitimate road user. They may curse you, beep you and b*tch about you on boards but its alot less likely that they will hit you.

Wishbone Ash

tunney wrote:

occupy the entire lane and to force the drivers to recognise you as a legitimate road user

I agree. I always treat a bicycle as if it were another normal sized vehicle.

(I also expect cyclists to obey traffic lights/signs etc. :rolleyes:)

daymobrew

Is this the roundabout? Google Maps (not Earth) link.

Wolverine_1999 wrote:

Comon, Irish cycling lanes are a joke... I would say both are at fault. The cyclist for being ignorant enough to think he is invincible going around a roundabout (should have watched traffic around him more carefully) and the driver for being ignorant in relation to cyclists (so many **** who have no consideration).

I can do both and have to say that the best cyclists are ones who can drive and the best drivers are those that can cycle.

Ideally cyclists would have a test and license and it would be a prerequisite for the driving license.

Saruman wrote:

Its simple with cyclists, you treat them as even bigger muppets than other car drivers and be prepared for absolute stupidity and kamikaze manoeuvres and you can usually avoid this kind of thing

I understand why you have this opinion. It's the muppets that you've seen that mess it up for those of us who have lights, obey traffic lights, wear helmets etc. I've gotten quite a bit of verbal abuse from cyclists when I point out to them that they just broke a red light. I've also gotten abuse from motorists when I point out their offences (now I just ring TrafficWatch).

Saruman wrote:

The cyclist should know that not many Irish people actually even understand how to drive on a roundabout. They use the wrong lanes, they drive straight through going through 2 lanes instead of sticking to the one they are supposed to be in... I have ranted before about roundabouts in this country and why very few people seem to understand the basic rules of the roads when it comes to them.

My biggest annoyance is the incorrect or lack of use of indicators (indicate as you exit people!!). It doesn't help those trying to enter the roundabout, especially cyclists who don't have a bucket of horsepower to help them cross the thing. Pedestrians trying to cross the road at an exit are equally fecked.

Stark

Roundabouts are an absolute ****ing nightmare when you're cycling.

Johnny Storm

That's the place DaymoBrew.

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I was very shocked when I saw it happening. IMHO the cyclist was 80% to blame from a "common-sense" point of view. From a legal point of view I dont really know - probably more like 50-50.

Johnny Storm

Stark wrote:

Roundabouts are an absolute ****ing nightmare when you're cycling.

Agreed, the cyclist is exposed to cars coming from every angle. I used to cycle to work every day for about 3 years (20 years ago :rolleyes: ). My route took me across the Artane roundabout, I always got off and pushed my bike around. And obviously traffic wasn't as bad back then as it is now.
I did occasionally feel a bit daft while I was doing it but I felt it wasn't worth risking my life just to get to work 30 seconds earlier.

DeepBlue

Johnny Storm wrote:

Could you post a link to that Google Earth Location, please?

Hopefully this link to google maps might help (and work ).

I used to work and live near there and passed that roundabout twice a day going from Church road up to Glenageary Avenue.
I always used to dismount and use the pedestrian crossings.

I don't know what the legal situation is but common sense dictates that the cyclist was wrong assuming that the motorist was indicating that he was turning left.

IrishRover

Did the motorist indicate left to show (the cyclist) that he intended to take that exit?

Johnny Storm

IrishRover wrote:

Did the motorist indicate left to show (the cyclist) that he intended to take that exit?

I didn't notice, TBH.

johnnyrotten

Johnny Storm wrote:

Anyway, who is at fault? The car driver was already in the left lane so did not have to check to her left, I'd think? .

What ever happened to Mirror - Signal - Mirror - Maneuver ?
Driver at fault !

BostonB

Good sense dictates you should never hit anything regardless of priority. You don't use your vehicle to prove your point about right of way. Big problem in this country is that both drivers and cyclist don't give consideration to each other. If both the driver and cyclist were watching each other properly they wouldn't have hit each other.

When is the last time you saw a driver give way to a cyclist, or a cyclist to a driver just out of courtesy? (obviously were its safe to do so)

mike65

Cyclists should use thier wit and simply get of the bloody bike and walk it across like a pedestrian.

Mike.

Johnny Storm

johnnyrotten wrote:

What ever happened to Mirror - Signal - Mirror - Maneuver ?
Driver at fault !

Seriously, its been a long time since I did my driving test. If you are in the left lane and turning left are you really supposed to look in your left mirror before turning? I suppose its a bit different on a roundabout.
Anyway, in this particular case the cyclist was probably right beside the car at the time the car began to turn and "possibly" not visible in the mirror. Although it the driver was on top of her game she undoubtably should have seen the bike.

Johnny Storm

BostonB wrote:

Good sense dictates you should never hit anything regardless of priority. .... If both the driver and cyclist were watching each other properly they wouldn't have hit each other....

In this case I'm 99% sure the driver did not see the cyclist due to her shocked reaction. My impression is that the cyclist thought he had some kind of right of way and didn't even look. Hopefully, they'll both learn something from this.

johnnyrotten

Johnny Storm wrote:

Seriously, its been a long time since I did my driving test. If you are in the left lane and turning left are you really supposed to look in your left mirror before turning? .

Absolutly, without question.
Observation is everything.