Enda Kenny on Immigration - honest debate or oppotunist sh1t stirring?

mike65

Okay crash helmets on everyone!

Whats Enda Kenny at with his comments regarding immigration which he managed to link with crime and notions of Catholicism and Christianity.

Saying Ireland was a "Celtic and Christian country", he said the rate of immigration had caused the greatest economic and social transformation since independence.

Immigrants had both rights and responsibilities, and "immigration must be managed in a way that keeps Ireland safe."

Mr Kenny said that while immigrants had the right to be free of discrimination and to have their contribution recognised, "they have the responsibility to integrate into our community, comply with our laws and respect our cultural traditions".

Ireland is the country its inhabitants make it, its not innatly Catholic or Christian.

Has Kenny reckoned that he can raise the issue of 'dem foreigners' while haveing his cake and eating it? - "hey we only want the best for all and need a debate" (which we do) while suggesting to those who are not well disposed to the new-look Ireland "hey I'm on your side really, I'll tighten things up and see we remain Holy Catholic Ireland" Nod, wink etc.

If Kenny wants a proper debate on where society is and should be headed to head-off strife in the future then he should say so and that alone, crow-baring in Crime and Culture in the same speech was cackhanded to say the least.

Mike.

lostexpectation

im really surprised at him using the words christian and celtic?
he did in the bit of speech where he talks about welcoming people and or past experiences of need to emigrate, hmm so was the mention of catholic ethos about how charitable we try to be or wink to the certain section of people.

Enda Kenny problem has a bulgarian women as housemaid washing his undies and then he go out and blame all of societies ills on immigrants, we're full he'll say.

Zombrex

Ummm ... being an atheists I really don't like people constantly calling Ireland a "Christian" country. Ireland is a secular country, at least in the later years of the State, and more the better for it. I'm all for people defending the secular nature of the state, but defending the "Christian" nature of the state is just stupid.

is_that_so

The Celtic, Christian thing is for the large number of people out there who still like that idea. It also does well on the hustings. He's just preaching to the choir but a choir that will probably get out and vote.

As regards the immigration, well he does need to start taking "opportunities" to say things as he's done feck all in the last year or so to convince anyone that the alternative government is alive. It is to be expected tbh in an election year. I can see where he's coming from.

Irish society needs everyone to get involved. IMO integration is important all round and benefits all of us and I have to say I also agree with his assertion that it does need to be managed for all concerned.

Sponge Bob

atheists do not vote, they are too busy watching pr0n to 'come out' on election day

Time Magazine

Wicknight wrote:

Ummm ... being an atheists I really don't like people constantly calling Ireland a "Christian" country. Ireland is a secular country

Ridiculous. The figure in my head is that 73% of us attending Maas at least once last year.

We are not secular. Our primary school teachers are the main organisers of confessional, eucharistic and confirmation sacrament events. And there'd be uproar if the parents had to do it themselves.

But we're not a Christian state insofar as we do not impose Canon Law on anyone. Nor are we secular, the ridiculous concept where a Christian school may not facilitate prayer meetings. We're a pluralist society where all faiths are tolerated and accepted.

Our society is inherently Christian-based, whether it's faith-based or not. Bigamy is illegal; blasphemy is specifically noted in the Constitution; Saint Vincent de Paul is an organisation we help and support because we agree with its moral character.


As for Enda's speech, I agree a debate on immigration is needed; if only to quell the uproar of the gobsh*tes who are spreading mis-information. I'd have much rathered had the government raised the debate to hear what the public thought; but it appears they weren't willing to do that.

Enda Kenny's not sh*t-stirring or using rhetoric when he called for a fair debate. I personally have been the recipient of crime committed by an immigrant; it's time to quantify the negative elements now that we know the postives, and these negative elements do exist - there's little doubt they're pushing up house prices, for example.

ballooba

lostexpectation wrote:

im really surprised at him using the words christian and celtic?
he did in the bit of speech where he talks about welcoming people and or past experiences of need to emigrate, hmm so was the mention of catholic ethos about how charitable we try to be or wink to the certain section of people.

Enda Kenny problem has a bulgarian women as housemaid washing his undies and then he go out and blame all of societies ills on immigrants, we're full he'll say.

I'm not usually much of a spelling & grammar fascist, but this is illegible. How are people supposed to know what you are trying to say unless you use something resembling proper english.

ballooba

If this thread had been started by someone else then I might think that it was deliberately misleading. Given that it was started by Mike65, I know that not to be the case. In my experience he is not the type of person to deliberately misrepresent what someone would say.

What I will say to people is that I suggest you read this speech in full (here) and form your own opinions. Don't rely on the juicy titbits taken from it by FF/PD supporters and newspapers. The following is the sentence where Enda mentioned a "Celtic and Christian" people, I'll wager it's the first time most of you have seen this.

Enda Kenny wrote:

As a Celtic and Christian people, we understand better than most the special challenges of immigration and integrating new communities. Now is time for a real national debate on these issues so that we can make the necessary changes to meet these new challenges. We have a chance to get this response right and to avoid the mistakes that were made elsewhere.

I believe the reference to a Celtic and Christian people was intended to represent the values that we draw from those influences. Celts are traditionally a travelling people and also a very welcoming people. I remember speaking to some Breton friends about this over the summer and the similarity between our two cultures. I don't think Enda Kenny is calling for a Celtic and Christian super-race or anything like that.

Terry

ballooba wrote:

If this thread had been started by someone else then I might think that it was deliberately misleading. Given that it was started by Mike65, I know that not to be the case. In my experience he is not the type of person to deliberately misrepresent what someone would say.

What I will say to people is that I suggest you read this speech in full (here) and form your own opinions. Don't rely on the juicy titbits taken from it by FF/PD supporters and newspapers. The following is the sentence where Enda mentioned a "Celtic and Christian" people, I'll wager it's the first time most of you have seen this.



I believe the reference to a Celtic and Christian people was intended to represent the values that we draw from those influences. Celts are traditionally a travelling people and also a very welcoming people. I remember speaking to some Breton friends about this over the summer and the similarity between our two cultures. I don't think Enda Kenny is calling for a Celtic and Christian super-race or anything like that.

nice one, Ballooba. I was just about to point that out.
just like Ibid said,

As for Enda's speech, I agree a debate on immigration is needed; if only to quell the uproar of the gobsh*tes who are spreading mis-information.

like those papers deliberately misquoting politicians in order to create controversy where there is none.

mike65

ballooba! Is it not possible to sh1t-stir on this board anymore?

As a Celtic and Christian people, we understand better than most the special challenges of immigration and integrating new communities

BTW the above still does'nt actualy make much sense in the context of an immigration debate. Whats being C&C got to do with it? Or am I missing something fundemental in the Irish psyche?

Mike.

Terry

yes, you are.
like it or not, the majority of Irish people still consider themselves to be christian.
we live in a democracy and, as such, majority rules.
while the numbers going to mass may have dwindled, all you need to do is look around you and think about all your friends who have had children or been married. then tot up how many were married in a church and how many had their children christened.
it may happen through tradition and/ or superstition, but these people still consider themselves christian, thus making Ireland a predominantly christian country.
either way, Enda kenny is right. (Labour supporter for the record)

Zombrex

Ibid wrote:

We are not secular.

Groan .. people never understand what I mean when I say that.

Being a secular state does not mean that everyone is non-religious. It means that everyone is free to practice any religion they wish. The State is non-religion.

You know a country like Saudi-Arabia, that is an example of a non-secular state. The chosen religion of the state (ie Islam) influences the government and the law.

Ibid wrote:

Our primary school teachers are the main organisers of confessional, eucharistic and confirmation sacrament events.

There is not a single child in a public school who is required to attend Catholic confessional or confirmation. This is a voluntary service provided by the school. You can also get help with other non-Christian religious festivals (assuming the school has the staff versed in the religion).

Ibid wrote:

We're a pluralist society where all faiths are tolerated and accepted.

Pluralism is not mutually exclusive of secularism.

Secularism means that the organisation of the state is seperate from any particular religious group. Yes we have Catholic public schools. But we also have Protestant, Muslim and non-religious public schools.

Ibid wrote:

Our society is inherently Christian-based, whether it's faith-based or not.

What is a non-faith based Christian society?

Ibid wrote:

As for Enda's speech, I agree a debate on immigration is needed;

It seems all we do is debate immigration these days.

Ibid wrote:

Enda Kenny's not sh*t-stirring or using rhetoric when he called for a fair debate.

No, he was **** stirring when he called Ireland a Christian Celtic state, as if that actually meant something in this day and age. I don't agree with ballooba interpretation that this was meant as some kind of call on our values of tolerance. As Mike points out that would be a rather bizarre analogy.

Ibid wrote:

there's little doubt they're pushing up house prices, for example.

But so are people from Mayo. The point is is that justification to stop people coming to Dublin, either from Poland or from Mayo.

Zombrex

julep wrote:

we live in a democracy and, as such, majority rules.

Rules what exactly....?

This is what makes secularists like myself uneasy about comments like "we are a Christian country" What does that actually mean?

Is it simply a statistic or is it an attempt to link Christianity with what is means to be "Irish" If it is the later then that is particularly worrying, especially when used in the context of a debate on immigration of people who may not be Christian.

is_that_so

Wicknight wrote:

Rules what exactly....?

This is what makes secularists like myself uneasy about comments like "we are a Christian country" What does that actually mean?

Having now read all the text I will say I couldn't even find the reference the first time I looked as there was far more important information in the text.

He didn't actually address that Christian reference to the country , he referred to the people , many of whom these days are neither Christian nor Celtic. Statistically however, he is correct.

But he is a politician and politicians pick speeches to suit the occasion.
He was addressing his own party and the line fits well with the speech and the audience.

It is of more concern to me that all that has been pulled out out of a fairly lengthy speech on Fine Gael policy is four words. TBH I really don't see the big deal. I am certainly not going to base my voting intentions on a couple of words.
If it is so offensive then people can make that known in the ballot box.

Of far greater importance IMO is the rest of the speech which tells us what they would do in government, which there has been very little comment on so far.

magick

like it or not, the majority of Irish people still consider themselves to be christian.
we live in a democracy and, as such, majority rules.

Exactly.

When in Rome...........

otherwise if you dont conform to this country get out.
Dont get me wrong , but we sound follow the American model,muli racial society but not multi cultural.

This is just like the pancakes, now ppl want to put all sorts of crap on them, lemon juice or sugar the way its ment to be, anything else is weird and against Ireland.

In other words dont f**k with the pancakes.

oscarBravo

Wicknight wrote:

No, he was **** stirring when he called Ireland a Christian Celtic state...

...except that it's already been pointed out that he didn't say that. If you're going to get upset about what Enda said, it's a good idea to make sure he said it first.

purple'n'gold

I don’t know what all the excitement is about really. At the end of the day, Ireland has a small open economy, totally at the mercy of global economics. Ok, some people are doing well at the moment mostly on borrowed money, but when the economy falters, and it will,( manufacturing jobs are disappearing very fast). Jobs will become scarce again and multiculturalism will disappear as immigrants become emigrants. We will then revert back to more or less what we were. Celtic, but a lot less Christian.

simu

We used to speak a Celtic language and some of us still do but the idea of the Irish being a Celtic race or people doesn't hold water. But Enda's not trying to appeal to pedants like me, I guess!

purple'n'gold

simu wrote:

We used to speak a Celtic language and some of us still do but the idea of the Irish being a Celtic race or people doesn't hold water. But Enda's not trying to appeal to pedants like me, I guess!

We like to say we’re Celtic; it has a nice ring to it. Actually we are part Celt, part Viking ,part Norman, part Anglo Saxon.

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

No, he was **** stirring when he called Ireland a Christian Celtic state, as if that actually meant something in this day and age. I don't agree with ballooba interpretation that this was meant as some kind of call on our values of tolerance. As Mike points out that would be a rather bizarre analogy.

Judging on your comments it would appear that you still haven't read the speech. As such, it would be debatable what merit your comments have. Why can't you just read the speech?

If indeed you have read the speech, I cannot see how the sentence containing those two words could be interpreted in any other way.

mike65

Brendan Keenan just gave the speech a lash on Radio 1s Rodney Rice programme. He noted how such talk excluded Northern Irish Protestants, while Joan Burton noted the Vietnamese who were invited in etc.

Mike.

InFront

I don't have a problem with the words of the speech, sentance by sentance they are fine. In fact the idea of a Christian and Celtic country opening up to new influences and ethic identities is particularly welcome from any public representative.

The "we" he speaks of when referring to a Celtic and Christian people are those of whom, he says would "have to have a very small mind, a very short memory and a very hard heart, not to welcome the stranger, who is trying to make a better life".
That is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and quite a nice gesture if you ask me. Quite the opposite to what the original article suggests, it is a very welcoming, openminded comment.

While he claims that the system is failing Irish citizens, he places equal emphasis on how the system is failing immigrants. He mentions additional educational resources for children without English as their first language, and indeed adult literacy amongst immigrants.
He also speaks of "rigorous enforcement of the employment protection laws and serious penalties for any employers who attempt to exploit immigrant workers through low pay or unfair conditions."

I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with this speech at all. The article that features it, of course, is quite sneaky and underhand in its portrayal of what Kenny actually said.

magick wrote:

if you dont conform to this country get out.

That depends on how you define conformity. Conformity in this context could be anything from being a mass going whiteskinned lady with a job in the local Spar to a law-abiding Kenyan with a poor grasp of the English language, zero appreciation for traditional Irish culture and a job in the local spar.

Conformity in terms of obeying the law, yes. Conformity in any other way, probably not.

walrusgumble

would any of ye expect muslim females to take off their head gear in public places eg schools if they are happy to continue their traditons? france and britain tried it i think. conformity is sufficent so long as everyone abides by the law. we hope immigrants intergrate into society but we should respect their traditions and ways of doing things, all we can do is encourage them to intergrate, not force them.

MadsL

Enda clearly never read the reports on the research.

“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1247765,00.html

MontgomeryClift

This is gas. You can talk about anything you want these days except the biggest social change to occur here since the plantation. People get all confused and emotional and Irish Timesish, asking 'Should he be mentioning this at all?'

purple'n'gold

MontgomeryClift wrote:

This is gas. You can talk about anything you want these days except the biggest social change to occur here since the plantation. People get all confused and emotional and Irish Timesish, asking 'Should he be mentioning this at all?'

You need not worry, after the economic downturn which is just around the corner, we will revert to white old Ireland again fairly rapidly.

antSionnach

purplengold wrote:

the economic downturn which is just around the corner

I didn't get that memo...

SeanW

Where did the OP get his info? If it was the Indo I imagine that they slanted the story to make Enda K. look like a racist parochial prat. That rag is only good for birdcage lining.

I agree with the idea of a proper debate about immigration, and the questions such a large influx of people from all corners raises.

But the problem is that such debates usually centre around idiotic extremists like Stormfront Ireland and Residents Against Racism types.

mike65

It proberly was the indo *for shame *, but he did mention those two traits.

Mike.

The_Minister

I think that people are uneasy with Ireland being described in the terms of "Celtic and Christian people", because thats the qualities that Stormfronters are always trumpeting. Its like the swaztika (sp?), it could mean something good, but normally doesn't. Add that to the fact that Enda was recorded telling a joke with the word "******" about a year ago, and people could get suspicious.

In the speech he refers to controlling immigration, and creating a special ministry for "immigration affairs". He make comments about tying the number of non-EU immegrants (i.e. blacks) to economic nessecity, rather than the sympathetic approach that is taken now. He wants to cherry-pick the most well-trained non-Eu's and slash the number coming to Ireland.
His comments on adult literacy programs consisting of 1/3 immegrants, seems to suggest a "they took our course" mentality. The courses tend to achieve much the same goal as each other, and tend to be effective in helping immegrants improve their english to an acceptable degree (do not forget that the vast majority of immegrants speak at least some English).
He seems to imply a high-correlation between foreigners and road-crashes.

I don't think that he was being overtly racist, (the above is to show that it could be interpreted like that, without just looking for trouble) but there are elements of his speech that are deseigned to push racist buttons; cutting down on the number of "non-Eu" immigrants (effectively blacks), they crash our cars, they divert welfare from the real Irish (the literacy courses), and of course, that we are a Celtic and Christian people. The bit about being White silently sounds in the minds of anti-immegrants when they hear that.
Kenny is courting xenophobes, quietly, and softly.

purple'n'gold

I think that people are uneasy with Ireland being described in the terms of "Celtic and Christian people",

I don’t think that the majority of Irish people are uneasy with that at all. After all, that’s what we(the vast majority) bascially are.