Enda Kenny on Immigration - honest debate or oppotunist sh1t stirring?

Zombrex

is_that_so wrote:

No I have an opinion contrary to yours.

That means you think I'm wrong. If you didn't you would agree with me and think I was right

Saying that you think I'm "not-right" but then refusing to say that you think I'm wrong is just ridiculous.

If you think I'm wrong I've no problem with that. If you put forward an argument as to why you think I'm wrong I will read it and happily debate it with you.

What I can't stand is people saying that I should just shut up, with no argument or reason behind that.

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

So what does that mean? Does that mean I'm not really part of the "Irish people". I imagine people like ballooba would be shouting "NO, you are just an exception to the rule"

I've already said that I don't agree with the Celtic Christian definition.

I disagree that nationality cannot or does not need to be defined.

I also disagree with your definition "Anyone who thinks they are Irish is Irish".

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

I've already said that I don't agree with the Celtic Christian definition.

I disagree that nationality cannot or does not need to be defined.

I also disagree with your definition "Anyone who thinks they are Irish is Irish".

In fairness all you seem to do is disagree ....

I have already stated (a few times) that the issue of legal nationality is rather irrelevant as a definition of what is the Irish people, since plenty of people who consider themselves "Irish" don't have passports and plenty of people who don't consider themselves "Irish" do.

How passports are allocated seems to work more on whether the Irish football team need some better players than any actual attempt to define Irishness.

If you disagree with Kenny's use of the term "Celtic and Christian", and you yourself admit that defining Irishness is "very hard to nail down" what exactly is your point?

Can you define what it means to be an Irish person?

purple'n'gold

Very soon now, every one will wonder what all the fuss was about. There will be zero immigration except for a few doctors and nurses etc. if we keep loosing high quality jobs like Motorola, we wont have enough jobs for our own educated young people.

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

If you disagree with Kenny's use of the term "Celtic and Christian", and you yourself admit that defining Irishness is "very hard to nail down" what exactly is your point?

Yes I am saying it's very hard to nail down.
I don't think that "Celtic and Christian" would be a definitive description.
I do think that being Irish needs to be defined. It is part of our sense of security and belonging. Whether you think that's silly or not, you cannot deny that it is a fact of life and it is the way that things have always been.

Wicknight wrote:

Can you define what it means to be an Irish person?

I've already said I can't.

Dictionary.com says the following:>
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irish

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

Yes I am saying it's very hard to nail down.

Actually you appear to be saying you cannot define it. Which is fair enough, I've said the exact same thing.

But you also say what it is to be "Irish" should be defined, should be nailed down, so I assume you think someone else should define it.

The question then is if someone else defined what it is to be "Irish" for you and you found yourself not actually included in that definition would you be happy with that definition?

(I assume you consider yourself Irish)?

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

But you also say what it is to be "Irish" should be defined, should be nailed down, so I assume you think someone else should define it.

Kind of, I think their should be a debate on what contitutes being Irish. Maybe that should be part of what Enda Kenny is proposing.

Wicknight wrote:

The question then is if someone else defined what it is to be "Irish" for you and you found yourself not actually included in that definition would you be happy with that definition?

They're already are people who would claim that I am not Irish. Hardline republicans would probably class me as a West Brit traitor. That's fine by me. Common sense prevails.

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

They're already are people who would claim that I am not Irish. Hardline republicans would probably class me as a West Brit traitor. That's fine by me. Common sense prevails.

That is largely irrelevant since I don't think when you called for a debate on what is "Irish" you were asking for the opinions of hardline republicans.

You say "common sense prevails", so I assume that you think most people would consider you "Irish", that your "irishness" is simply common sense.

I'm asking you what if they didn't?

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

That is largely irrelevant since I don't think when you called for a debate on what is "Irish" you were asking for the opinions of hardline republicans.

So the opinions of hardline republicans don't count?

Wicknight wrote:

You say "common sense prevails", so I assume that you think most people would consider you "Irish", that your "irishness" is simply common sense. I'm asking you what if they didn't?

Common sense would be that I'm not a West Brit Traitor because Irish culture has moved away from hardline republicanism.

If hardline republicanism was at the heart of Irish culture, and I didn't share that sentiment, then I wouldn't mind if I was told I wasn't Irish.

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

So the opinions of hardline republicans don't count?

Common sense would be that I'm not a West Brit Traitor because Irish culture has moved away from hardline republicanism.

If hardline republicanism was at the heart of Irish culture, and I didn't share that sentiment, then I wouldn't mind if I was told I wasn't Irish.

Ok, if you are just going to stall and refuse to answer this (hardline republicans .. where did that even come from??) I don't see much point in responding any further ...

It is quite simple. You say you cannot decide what is or is not "Irishness" but you want people to debate the issue of Irishness and reach a conclusion as to how it is defined.

Who are these people, and what would your response be if they decide that you weren't part of that definition?

The fact that you seem uncomfortable answering that rather clear question suggests that maybe, just maybe, you are starting to understand my original point...

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, if you are just going to stall and refuse to answer this (hardline republicans .. where did that even come from??) I don't see much point in responding any further ...

Maybe it's your problems of comprehension.

If I didn't fit in with the commonly accepted view of what constituted being Irish, then I would not object. I would not like to pretend to be something I'm not.

Wicknight wrote:

It is quite simple. You say you cannot decide what is or is not "Irishness" but you want people to debate the issue of Irishness and reach a conclusion as to how it is defined.

It's not up to me to decide. That would be called dictatorship.

Wicknight wrote:

Who are these people, and what would your response be if they decide that you weren't part of that definition?

See above.

Wicknight wrote:

The fact that you seem uncomfortable answering that rather clear question suggests that maybe, just maybe, you are starting to understand my original point...

I understand your point, I just don't agree with you. Given that I don't live under your dictatorship, I don't have to either.

MadsL

Still baffled as to why you all accept the 'Celtic' statement when the Irish nation is largely not historically Celtic?

Just ignoring the research are we? Wishful thinking?

SeanW

Ireland is largely of a white, Celtic(ish) background, and until very recently there would have been very few non-Catholic persons of non-Irish ancestry who would have considered themselves or be considered Irish. Of course that's started to change with people immigrating and sometimes integrating, and the native population ditching Catholicism.

But traditionally, the number of people not conforming to the traditional stereotype of "Irish" in Ireland had been quite small. Enda's speech therefore is reasonably accurate.

Wicknight, I understand that you might have a little bit of "what about me, Enda?" thoughts after reading the speech but what I don't understand is why you're so worked up about it?

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

If I didn't fit in with the commonly accepted view of what constituted being Irish, then I would not object. I would not like to pretend to be something I'm not.

You can't get a straight answer out of you can you ....

The point is that you already are pretending to be something you are not by thinking of yourself as "Irish" when you clearly aren't.

If its pointed out that you aren't actually "Irish", do you accept that?

ballooba wrote:

It's not up to me to decide. That would be called dictatorship.

If everyone thinks that then ultimately who does decide?

Zombrex

SeanW wrote:

But traditionally, the number of people not conforming to the traditional stereotype of "Irish" in Ireland had been quite small. Enda's speech therefore is reasonably accurate.

"Reasonably accurate"? He wasn't quoting statistics

SeanW wrote:

Wicknight, I understand that you might have a little bit of "what about me, Enda?" thoughts after reading the speech but what I don't understand is why you're so worked up about it?

I get "worked up" (am I getting more worked up that those telling me to be quiet or telling me I'm worked up? ) about it for these reasons -

- At the heart of all the Irish problems with racism and new cultures is the underlying attitude of "us" and "them". Even actions of the best intentions are going to shackled by this attitude and ultimately unsuccessful. If you don't understand the issues you cannot fix them.

- Enda Kenny is a leader of a major political party, not someone just making random comments on the internet. It possibly be in the next government.

- The re-action to my comments from others here are rather troubling.

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

You can't get a straight answer out of you can you ....

You keep making that comment and I resent it. How more clear can I be.

Wicknight wrote:

If its pointed out that you aren't actually "Irish", do you accept that?

Yes. I have already said that.

Wicknight wrote:

If everyone thinks that then ultimately who does decide?

It's called democracy.

Wicknight wrote:

am I getting more worked up that those telling me to be quiet or telling me I'm worked up?

Nobody is telling you to be quiet. If anybody here is trying to shut anybody down here, then it's you.

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

You keep making that comment and I resent it. How more clear can I be.

You keep saying that if the majority decided that you weren't Irish you wouldn't mind because if that was the case you wouldn't think of yourself as Irish anyway in the first place. So of course you wouldn't mind.

That is a bit of a cop out from properly answering my question and also seems to imply that those who do think of themselves as Irish despite the fact that the majority doesn't are some how deluding themselves.

You clearly do think of yourself as Irish, and I would imagine you didn't come to that conclusion because a majority of representatives told you that you were Irish.

Think of it this way - If others decided tomorrow that you weren't Irish what would you consider yourself to be?

I would imagine, and I'm going out on a limb here, that you would still consider yourself Irish, since that is what you consider yourself at the moment to be.

The whole point of this is to trying and get you to imagine the position of someone who considers themselves Irish but is not considered proper Irish by others because they do not fit a certain mold of what the others consider to be Irish qualities.

I would imagine at the end of the day if you were informed tomorrow that you didn't fit that mold you would still consider yourself Irish, because what else would you consider yourself to be?

ballooba wrote:

It's called democracy.

You said you wouldn't try and define what is "Irishness" because you wouldn't want to impose that idea on anyway. If everyone in the democracy feels like this then no one will want to. How can a conclusion be reached then?

ballooba wrote:

Nobody is telling you to be quiet.

ballooba wrote:

I think seeing as Wicknight is in the tiny minority on this one his opinion doesn't even count. Job done. I'm off.

ballooba

The last comment you have quoted there was intended as a joke. I thought that was quite clear from the smiley you have neglected to quote.

I have already answered your question regarding whether I would accept being told I am not Irish. I feel I have been completely unambiguous on that.

Wicknight2 wrote:

How can it be a democracy if no one in the democracy can come to any conclusion.

That's the whole point of democracy. One person cannot form a conclusion for the whole. That can only be achieved through consensus. I do have an opinion on what constitutes being Irish. As such I would welcome the debate that Mr Kenny is proposing and hopefully the eventual immigration reform.

Zombrex

ballooba wrote:

The last comment you have quoted there was intended as a joke.

Hilarious .. laughing with me or at me ballooba? :rolleyes:

ballooba wrote:

I have already answered your question regarding whether I would accept being told I am not Irish.

You answered it with a "cop-out" clause, which I explain more in my edited post above.

You answered it by saying that you wouldn't consider yourself Irish in the first place, implying it wouldn't be an issue. That ignores that fact that you already consider yourself Irish and as such not answer the question properly.

Of course you know this because it was a way of getting out of actually answer the question. I would imagine if someone tomorrow told you that you weren't Irish you would tell them to f**k off and continue right on thinking of yourself as Irish, which is what the vast majority of the population would do, including myself.

If you were told you weren't Irish tomorrow what would you consider yourself to be?

ballooba wrote:

That's the whole point of democracy. One person cannot form a conclusion for the whole. That can only be achieved through consensus.

Democracy is about everyone deciding for themselves and then seeing how many people agree with you. You make your own personal decision, and if the majority agrees with you then that is reflected.

ballooba wrote:

I do have an opinion on what constitutes being Irish.

Well then why say you didn't?

is_that_so

Well I am comfortable in my Irishness. I have the passport, the languages and I also live on the island. I can relate to the Celtic part of our history that we claim to have and I love being at sports event involving the country I identify with. Because it makes me feel good. That's identification enough for me and that's how I would describe it. But I am also a European sometimes and I also could have been Spanish once upon a time but I chose not to be.

We identify with like-minded groups from our family up to the larger social groupings. But eventually when we have enough layers we stop and say that's my identity.

Zombrex

is_that_so wrote:

We identify with like-minded groups from our family up to the larger social groupings. But eventually when we have enough layers we stop and say that's my identity.

Well put.

ballooba

Wicknight wrote:

Hilarious .. laughing with me or at me ballooba? :rolleyes:

I don't know. Sense of humour is quite personal. If you didn't find it funny then I apologise.

Wicknight wrote:

If you were told you weren't Irish tomorrow what would you consider yourself to be?

I would have to think about that in that case.

Wicknight wrote:

Well then why say you didn't?

You didn't ask for my opinion. You asked me to define.

From this post It would appear that you believe opinions are either right or wrong.

I believe that they are just that, opinions. I have already expressed my opinion on this thread. I've heard yours also and while it's a valid opinion, it's not one I agree with. I've nothing further to contribute to this thread.

(As I'm sure the moderators of this forum will be glad to hear. )