If there was an united Ireland, would we in the North be better off?

dj9928

Just curious, at the min we are the poorest region in the UK, the vast majority of people are on min wage or below £250 a week, First time housing buyers have no hope, would we in the north be better of financially with a united Ireland

Dave!

yeeshk, this is never a pleasant thing to discuss............. -_-

ScumLord

I think their better off as they are. N.I has never had the chance to develop properly because of all the trouble if there was peace I have no doubt N.I would excell in europe they have strong politions that could get just about anything off Europe.

They have much better infastructure thanks to British taxes. Just look at their roads I remember leaving N.I and the first thing you notice are the potholes.

they could have the best of both worlds, They are Irish and should get all the international tourisim that goes along with that title but at the same time they have all the benifits off British money.

Zonko

I disagree scumhole, outside of Belfast the north has terrible roads, the only big disadvantage is the lack of self-sustaining economy due to the largely government subsided companies like H&W and shorts. At the moment the north is costing the UK £2B a year for both reasons like this, and scams still going on all over the show mostly buy republicans trying to rip off the percieved enemy.

antSionnach

I think his name is scumlord...!

I think right now, objectively speaking, Ulster would be better served as part of an Irish state. However, they would probably be even better served by looking after their own affairs. Clean up your own mess lads!

Zonko

Ah yeah, sorry about that scumlord. Clean up our mess though? In all fairness there are very few people alive that instigated the secterian partitioning of Ireland, the current working generations for the most part didn't kill anyone, didn't bomb anywhere, didn't try to keep half the population down through inhumane governing policies. It's not our fault we've been shat on and forgotten about by the south, had a blind eye turned to us by the UK and been kicked about and unlooked after by our own people in power.

antSionnach

Yeah, so Ulster should put itself into power. get Ulster working for Ulster.

Financially, the place is a mess. I'm not sure the southern economy can afford that kind of patriotism, and the vast majority of people in the north want unity so it's completely hypothetical anyway.

Why would Ulster be better off as part of a united Ireland?

Zonko

1/3 of Ulster already is. :P

ScumLord

I know **** all about the ins and out's of the whole N.I situation but I do see all the folks in the north as being as Irish as the rest of us in the south probably even more so. In my hearts of hearts I'd love to see a united Ireland but at the end of the day treatys and constitutions are just words and paper the people matter and if you take away the emotion of the subject N.I is in the position to reap huge benifits if peace lasts.

N.I has allot coming to it from the Republic, Europe and the UK, they should at the very least get as much funding as they can from those bodys before rushing headlong into the idealisim of joining the republic. Which I think is enevitable.

At the end of the day N.I's future belongs to the people of N.I. At the end of the day you should do whats best for whats good for the people of your country.

admiralofthefleet

northern ireland would be better off existing in an all ireland economy, but things are more or less a united ireland at the moment, the cross-border bodies, different sporting organisations existing as an all-ireland entity, the new national developement plan, etc... . so i would say that ni only exists as part of the uk in a political sense, didnt john major say about 15 years ago the the uk 'has no economic or strategic interest in ni'

Mossy Monk

antSionnach wrote:

Yeah, so Ulster should put itself into power. get Ulster working for Ulster.

Northern Ireland is but 6 counties
Ulster is 9

jimmycrackcorm

dj9928 wrote:

Just curious, at the min we are the poorest region in the UK, the vast majority of people are on min wage or below £250 a week, First time housing buyers have no hope, would we in the north be better of financially with a united Ireland

You'll find out in a few years time.

purple'n'gold

dj9928 wrote:

Just curious, at the min we are the poorest region in the UK, the vast majority of people are on min wage or below £250 a week, First time housing buyers have no hope, would we in the north be better of financially with a united Ireland

You might be better off, but I for one (I live in the south) would feel far worse off if I had to live in the same state as the so called “Rev” William McCrea. A classic example of a bigot living in the 15th century.

Terry

Zonko wrote:

Ah yeah, sorry about that scumlord. Clean up our mess though? In all fairness there are very few people alive that instigated the secterian partitioning of Ireland, the current working generations for the most part didn't kill anyone, didn't bomb anywhere, didn't try to keep half the population down through inhumane governing policies. It's not our fault we've been shat on and forgotten about by the south, had a blind eye turned to us by the UK and been kicked about and unlooked after by our own people in power.

Abandoned by both the republic and the U.K.?
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and sort out your own problems. You would probably be better off on your own anyway.
The republic of northern Ireland has a nice ring to it.

Those people in the south that "shat" on you are no longer alive, so stop churning out that old nugget. It's time to grow up and stop blaming everyone else for your problems. Only then will you be able to move forward and decide your own future.

Rb

I agre Julep.

Also, United Ireland?No thanks.

Terry

don't get me wrong. I would love to see a united Ireland, but not one with a bunch of whining bitches who are still bitter about being abandoned by either Ireland or britain.
Then again, romantic Ireland is dead and gone...

gandalf

Once both communities learn to live together then they can consider joining us. Until they are able to do that we don't want them.

Oh AH mods don't move this to politics.

Terry

gandalf wrote:

Oh AH mods don't move this to politics.

LMAO.
Don't worry. It has already been AH'd.

luckat

If we got together - North and South - we could be a powerful force. I'd love it. But only if people want it wholeheartedly and are completely committed to the country.

flanger20002003

luckat wrote:

If we got together - North and South - we could be a powerful force. I'd love it. But only if people want it wholeheartedly and are completely committed to the country.

Which is highly unlikely...after all, that's what the past 30 years have been about! IMO, our Fianna Fail/PDs coalition can just about run the country as it is...imagine adding to an already strained welfare system the needs of another million or so people. Doubt either the Republic or the North would benefit economically from it at all.

Terry

I can't be entirely sure about this, but i really don't think that there are 1 million people up north in need of welfare support.

baztard

In the short term, no the six counties would be worse off, with all the turmoil from the change etc. In the long term though yes they would be better off.

Its not gonna happen anytime soon though unfortunately.

Zonko

julep wrote:

I can't be entirely sure about this, but i really don't think that there are 1 million people up north in need of welfare support.

The number might be close to one million if you factor in civil servants and government subsided companies.

Flukey

In the longer term Northern Ireland would be better off joining the rest of the country. There are a lot of jealous eyes looking at the way the Irish economy has gone. There are many reasons for the Celtic Tiger, but amongst them is the improving situation in Northern Ireland. If things keep moving positively, Northern Ireland will continue on the current upward curve they are on, and with the rest of us, it would be even better. There are those up there that will never want that, but maybe in time it will happen. On balance they would be far better off in a lot of ways.

Steyr

rb_ie wrote:

Also, United Ireland?No thanks.

Thank you, NO United Ireland for me either, i reckon the Nation would have a Civil War, I believe Tony would hand it back at 8am given the Opportunity, but why would we want an Economical and Political nightmare on our hands we have enough to deal with as it is, the UK can keep it as far as im concerned.

Black Swan

Sounds like a remake of an old series? Northern Exposure?

InFront

Steyr wrote:

Thank you, NO United Ireland for me either, i reckon the Nation would have a Civil War, I believe Tony would hand it back at 8am given the Opportunity, but why would we want an Economical and Political nightmare on our hands we have enough to deal with as it is, the UK can keep it as far as im concerned.

Very true. Add the fact that the majority of people, including a significant number of Catholics, want to remain attached to Britian (or the British Exchequer:) ) and you really don't have much argument in favour of Irish Unionism.

All that's left is patriotism, and although there's nothing wrong with patriotism, it doesnt really carry much weight against all of the arguments against a united Ireland.

Sleepy

Lets look at facts:

The UK pumps vast quantities of cash into Northern Ireland every year.
A huge proportion of employment in Northern Ireland is public sector.
The former paramilitaries on both sides haven't simply disappeared.

Joining the Republic would put all of those people out of work and the loss of the UK's subsidy. The Republic is on the verge of recession as it stands and would not in any way be able to afford to match the subsidy levels the UK provides the North (nor would there be the political will to do so in a country of such parish pump politics as practiced here).

If Northern Ireland can reduce it's reliance on state jobs, boost it's economy to the point where it's self-sufficient while at the same time preventing the hardliners on both sides of the political divide from killing each other and innocent civilians caught between them, neutralising the former paramilitaries that are now forming organised crime 'families' and basically grow up there might be a case for unification. Until that fantasy becomes a reality however, we plain and simple don't want you.

kevmy

IMO if the North joined us tomorrow it would be a disaster for both of us. Our welfare systems are different, our currency is different, our health systems are different etc. There is very little in the North and South that are run in the exact same way so it would not make sense.
The North would be better off using money that the Republic and Britain are giving it and putting it to use setting up their own system where they know their own problems. I can't see a United Ireland for another 50 years at least and even then it probably won't happen.

flanger20002003

julep wrote:

I can't be entirely sure about this, but i really don't think that there are 1 million people up north in need of welfare support.

Well maybe that was a slight exaggeration, but when you consider things like unemployment benefit, pensions, children's allowance, student grants, subsidies for community projects (youth clubs, reconciliation schemes etc.), I'd say you're talking in the region of half a million people at least. Don't forget that the effects of social welfare extend beyond the direct recipient...they might have kids or other dependents too. My point is that our government would struggle severely to cater for the needs of that many extra people, at least in the short term.

flanger20002003

julep wrote:

I can't be entirely sure about this, but i really don't think that there are 1 million people up north in need of welfare support.

Well maybe that was a slight exaggeration, but when you consider things like unemployment benefit, pensions, children's allowance, student grants, subsidies for community projects (youth clubs, reconciliation schemes etc.), I'd say you're talking in the region of half a million people at least. Don't forget that the effects of social welfare extend beyond the direct recipient...they might have kids or other dependents too. My point is that our government would struggle severely to cater for the needs of that many extra people, at least in the short term.

brianthebard

luckat wrote:

If we got together - North and South - we could be a powerful force. I'd love it. But only if people want it wholeheartedly and are completely committed to the country.

Powerful force for what now? It would be better for the republicans but that's about it. As already pointed out almost all government and national systems are different, unemployment is much higher in the North (not huge, but still higher) the post colonial mindset that the South has only recently managed to struggle away from is still very evident in the North, and economic meltdown would be nigh-on inevitable.

faceman

Im from the republic (or "the south" as my NI and UK colleagues call it) and i think that in general NI is better off under UK ownership. (i have friends who married NI lasses so I am a frequent visitor)

Economically i dont believe it would be a good idea short term for the republic to take 100% ownership of NI.

As tough as it might be I think shared ownership between UK and IRL (unless we find a huge oil reserve in the midlands or something and become the richest nation on earth) is the best we could manage for the mo. Although the UK would have to be the bigger investor.

Until the UK/NI starts using the euro i wouldnt bother tho. God damn them!

Oh yeah, heres the token "they're taking our jobs line". Where i work, we have offices in NI and they are now coming to dublin and taking our jobs!!

purple'n'gold

Until the UK/NI starts using the euro i wouldnt bother tho. God damn them

Afraid you will be waiting for eternity. IMO the British will never join the euro.

faceman

purplengold wrote:

Afraid you will be waiting for eternity. IMO the British will never join the euro.

yeah i know.

shamblertine

faceman wrote:

Oh yeah, heres the token "they're taking our jobs line". Where i work, we have offices in NI and they are now coming to dublin and taking our jobs!!

NI students consistently achieve the highest marks in gcse's and a-levels in the UK. The "brain drain" it suffers is inevitable with the troubles and lack of opportunities up there. But the economy up there is now growing at a very fast rate. With a united ireland, NI could really flourish. I really hope it will happen some day.

csk

A few facts, when there is a United Ireland it will not happen over night, we won't go to bed one night only to wake up and learn the dastardly Brits have withdrawn without telling any body, shot the Celtic Tiger on the way leaving us all back in the 80's with no money.

Instead the process of reintegration of the National Territory will take months if not years, when a United Ireland happens it will be the culmination of months of synchronicity. The changeover from the pound to Euro will be no different than our own changeover, there will be no economic meltdown. Different Health services etc. will mean little by the time. This process of synchronicity has already begun check out the lastest NDP.

A United Ireland will be nothing but a benefit to the north, the obvious example being no more British State sponsored murder gangs roaming the streets killing random and innocent Irish people. The economy after years of being run down by the British mismanagement will flourish, the dependcy on British hand outs will have evaporated and a reinvigorated northern economy will only enhance.

As for increasing the post colonial mindset this is rubbish. We are, funnily enough an ex colony, indeed the north east still is! The only negative impact this could have is the Wolfe Tones reuniting and assaulting ear drums nationwide.

ScumLord

The economy after years of being run down by the British mismanagement will flourish, the dependcy on British hand outs will have evaporated and a reinvigorated northern economy will only enhance.

That's a good point, sure look at when the tans where incharge of us down here you couldn't even grow a potato in the country, now look at us! Potatos, carrots all the vegitables you can eat.

kevmy

ScumLord wrote:

That's a good point, sure look at when the tans where incharge of us down here you couldn't even grow a potato in the country, now look at us! Potatos, carrots all the vegitables you can eat.

LOL

Sleepy

csk, that's rather a rose-tinted view tbh. A United Ireland would certainly harm the Northern Irish employment levels as there's no way the south could afford (or it's population would stand for) the upkeep of NI's public service.

The Republic would suffer badly and as such would be even less able to provide for the North resulting in a reduced standard of living for everyone.

Dave!

I'm gonna agree with Sleepy here. The Irish economy will have to prop up N.I. like the Brits have been doing for so long, only we don't have as much money as they do. So N.I. will suffer because it'll have less money at its disposal, and the Republic will suffer because we'll still have to pump the money we have, into N.I.

And csk, you mentioned British mis-management of the Northern economy -- but can you imagine the devastation that would be caused once the shower of eejits in Dáil Éireann get their hands on it?! :eek: Oh the horror......

I don't think from an economic POV that the Republic or the North would benefit at all from reunion. But I'm not an economist.

csk

Sleepy wrote:

csk, that's rather a rose-tinted view tbh. A United Ireland would certainly harm the Northern Irish employment levels as there's no way the south could afford (or it's population would stand for) the upkeep of NI's public service.

The Republic would suffer badly and as such would be even less able to provide for the North resulting in a reduced standard of living for everyone.

The rose-tinted view was the whole point. TBH I am astounded by the pessimism, the idea that the euro to pound changeover would cause economic meltdown or that some kind of ludicrous psuedo-disease "post-colonialism" would run rife (worse than SARS or bird flu or foot and mouth maybe?) is nothing but unsubstantiated scaremongering.

The northern economy is badly run down yes, and it would if handed over tomorrow be catastrophic but the point remains, it will not be handed over tomorrow. We are embarking on a process where both our economies are being brought together, where closer ties are being developed, so that the kind of problems mentioned will not be a factor. I happen to think this will only be to our mutual benefit.

As long as the economy here in the Republic stays strong and doesn't go into an unprecedented slump and closer economic ties develope then there should be no worry about the state of the economy after re-unification.

DaveMcG wrote:

And csk, you mentioned British mis-management of the Northern economy -- but can you imagine the devastation that would be caused once the shower of eejits in Dáil Éireann get their hands on it?! Oh the horror......

Yes this is a danger especially with our present buch of cowboys, but surely there are Irish men and Irish women of passion and vision among the next generation that will usurp these pitiful gobsh!tes. Surely the Celtic Tiger generation will throw up some proper leaders... Actually, yeah we're screwed.

kevmy

csk wrote:

The northern economy is badly run down yes, and it would if handed over tomorrow be catastrophic but the point remains, it will not be handed over tomorrow. We are embarking on a process where both our economies are being brought together, where closer ties are being developed, so that the kind of problems mentioned will not be a factor. I happen to think this will only be to our mutual benefit.

I agree with you here except that a lot of Northeners don't want a United Ireland - at least 50%. So before even thinking about reunification they must be onside. As for the NDP thats doing no more than our duty under the Good Friday agreement - if we have joint responsibility in the decision making than we should share some of the financial burden also. IMO it will take a long time to sell Unionists that they are better off under Dublin rule only then can the slowly slowly economic and social integration of North and South begin because if it's rushed through we could end up fcuked like the Germans.

Harpoon

ScumLord wrote:

I think their better off as they are. N.I has never had the chance to develop properly because of all the trouble if there was peace I have no doubt N.I would excell in europe they have strong politions that could get just about anything off Europe.

They have much better infastructure thanks to British taxes. Just look at their roads I remember leaving N.I and the first thing you notice are the potholes.

they could have the best of both worlds, They are Irish and should get all the international tourisim that goes along with that title but at the same time they have all the benifits off British money.

em have you been in the north in the last ten years.Its pretty well accepted that their roads are MUCH worse than in the Republic.It has completely reversed in a decade. And their trains, buses em again I would say much worse. Ive been on the trains.Might seem that there isnt as much gridlock because the economy is still developing.Less jobs, less cars, less gridlock.

Harpoon

Zonko wrote:

The number might be close to one million if you factor in civil servants and government subsided companies.

something in the region of 70% of the employed in ni are public servants.....funded to the teeth by the British Government, an absure paradigm. Smacks of paying people to stay of the street.

and housing, now thats heading for a slump. Comparatively houses in the south are easier to fund. Better salaries and lower, stable interest rates. I dont know where people are getting the money to spend the money on houses up there. The fundamentals are crazy. I can laugh at this now because over the years many a northerner has said to be that us southerners are crazy with the house prices.

Harpoon

Sleepy wrote:

Lets look at facts:

The UK pumps vast quantities of cash into Northern Ireland every year.
A huge proportion of employment in Northern Ireland is public sector.
The former paramilitaries on both sides haven't simply disappeared.

Joining the Republic would put all of those people out of work and the loss of the UK's subsidy. The Republic is on the verge of recession as it stands and would not in any way be able to afford to match the subsidy levels the UK provides the North (nor would there be the political will to do so in a country of such parish pump politics as practiced here).

If Northern Ireland can reduce it's reliance on state jobs, boost it's economy to the point where it's self-sufficient while at the same time preventing the hardliners on both sides of the political divide from killing each other and innocent civilians caught between them, neutralising the former paramilitaries that are now forming organised crime 'families' and basically grow up there might be a case for unification. Until that fantasy becomes a reality however, we plain and simple don't want you.

the republic on the verge of recession, whoahhh where are you getting that from. A little talk about house price adjustment and its all doom and gloom.Fundamentals dont support that.

purple'n'gold

the republic on the verge of recession, whoahhh where are you getting that from. A little talk about house price adjustment and its all doom and gloom.Fundamentals dont support that.

our economy is skewed, far too many working in construction which is financed by borrowed money. Manufacturing jobs, even good ones (Motorola) disappearing like snuff at a wake. Governments benchmarking pay outs to permanent and pensionable public servants eating away the public purse. I’d say we are heading for a fall.

shamblertine

Harpoon wrote:

something in the region of 70% of the employed in ni are public servants

Haha absolute rubbish

Harpoon

shamblertine wrote:

Haha absolute rubbish

absolute rubbish are you sure? maybe it is not in absolute employment terms, but something in that region is generated from the public sector. European average is in the region of 40%.

Harpoon

purplengold wrote:

the republic on the verge of recession, whoahhh where are you getting that from. A little talk about house price adjustment and its all doom and gloom.Fundamentals dont support that.

our economy is skewed, far too many working in construction which is financed by borrowed money. Manufacturing jobs, even good ones (Motorola) disappearing like snuff at a wake. Governments benchmarking pay outs to permanent and pensionable public servants eating away the public purse. I’d say we are heading for a fall.

Motorola as far as I know are laying off what 300? Didnt Intel announce some positive news? Isnt that the case?
I agree that too much of the economy depends on housing, then again we have increasing immigration, low and stable interest rates (find me someone who thinks the ecb repo rate is going to go beyond say 4.5%). We are, and are becoming more of a knowledge based economy.There are always uncertainties and threats to an economy. I do not believe that the negatives outweigh the positives.

Flukey

Our government and national systems are not as different as many people seem to be saying in this thread. Don't forget that a lot of our ways have not changed radically since independence, like our legal system, and that a lot of things that have been brought into Britain since then have been mirrored here too. Then there is the fact that we are both members of the EU, which means a lot of similarities. Of course there are differences too, but they could be overcome. As has been pointed out, this would be a prolonged process, if it is to happen. There is already a lot of co-operation going on anyway, so we would not be starting from square one.

Many Unionists do have a great fear of a united Ireland and fear that they would lose out in many ways. There would be benefits. For example, currently Northern Ireland has about 18 MPs in Westminster out of a total of, I think, somewhere over 600. So about 3%. They are all single seat constituencies. In a United Ireland Dáil, all those constituencies would become multi-seat. If we take it that on average there would be 4 seats per constituency, that would make up over 70 seats. Chances are that constituencies might be revised and they may end up with more or possibly less. Anyway, add that 70 to the existing 166 seats in the Dáil and you would see that the "North" would have a far greater say in their affairs and a better political representation than they do in Westminster! They could well end up in Government. The Dáil would be revised as a whole more than likely, but whatever new total amount of seats there would be in it, what is currently Northern Ireland would have a large amount of them, probably 25% - 30%.

Coming under "Dublin Rule" would not be such a major change. When a government changes in any country in the democratic world, usually day to day lives are not so greatly affected. When Labour returned to power after so long out in Britain or when we have had a change of government here, things did not radically change. We still had to get up the next day, go to work/school etc, buy our food for the week, meet friends, rest and play, and basically do all the type of things we always do. Many people will tell you that they have no interest in politics and it doesn't affect them anyway (which is not true) and it doesn't matter who is in charge. So much of the day to day life of the average person in Northern Ireland will not be majorly affected by becoming part of a united Ireland.

Another aspect of "Dublin rule" is that that is only the location of the Dáil. There are TDs from all over the country there representing their constituencies. So even in the context of the Republic only, when you hear people outside of Dublin talking about "Dublin rule", it is of course rubbish. All the country is represented, and if the North were to come in, they'd be represented too and have their input.

None of this will happen overnight, and it would have to be a step by step handover with transitional support from Britain in terms of things like finance and investment etc. The British exchequer would for a time continue to contribute in the support of Northern Ireland as things changed over, slowly reducing involvement. There are many complex issues in such a change, but it could be done, albeit with some very careful management.