If there was an united Ireland, would we in the North be better off?

sceptre

csk wrote:

As long as the economy here in the Republic stays strong and doesn't go into an unprecedented slump

It's rather unlikely to happen today or tomorrow but at some point it will slump. It's the childlike assumption that most consumers have that things are the way they are and that's the way they'll always be until they wake up some morning in a cold sweat that tends to throw economies into the crapper.

Flukey

A lot of misconceptions about the "South" (including the East, West and Midlands) are still held by some of the more extreme elements in the North, often fuelled by people like our good friend Big Ian. Many still think that if they got the train to Dublin, on getting off it they would be surrounded by priests, nuns and brothers, all bearing rosaries and be swept off to a convent somewhere to be converted. Laughable as it may seem, it is a perception still held, even by the young!


Now if I met them at the "Connolly" Station, I'd bring them on a tour of my city. What would I show them? I'd show them O'Connell Street and The GPO, where the proclamation was read from in 1916. I'd show them the O'Connell Monument erected to Daniel O'Connell and his role in Catholic Emancipation. I'd show them the bullet holes in the statue, from 1916. I'd show them where Nelson once stood, before he was blown up. I'd show them the Parnell Monument and point out the wonderful quotation on it. I'd show them Kilmainham Jail. I'd show them where Robert Emmet was hung etc. This is all too much for them I hear you say. Well, there are other places I'd show them too!


I'd show them St. Patrick's Cathedral and Christchurch Cathedral, with the same pride as all those other places. I'd point out to them that "Catholic Dublin" does not have a full cathedral of its own, only the pro-Cathedral. Dublin's two cathedrals are in fact both Protestant, something many Dubliners don't even know. St. Patrick's is the national cathedral and Christ Church is the city cathedral. The pro-Cathedral is not a full cathedral, and so Dublin, the capital of holy Catholic Ireland, much feared by Unionist Protestants, does not have a Catholic cathedral.



I'd show them the wonderful "Georgian Architecture" of the city and the many wonderful buildings that have strong "British" connections and are part of my city. I would proudly show them City Hall, Dublin Castle, once part of British rule here and the Bank Of Ireland in College Green, our former parliament under British Rule. I'd show them the ordinary people of Dublin going about their daily business no more or less under the influence of their Religion than anyone in Belfast or Derry.


In short, I'd show them all the elements that go to make up this city and that it is not all "Irish, Catholic, Republican" but that a lot of what is best in this city goes back to our times under British rule, not forgetting the Viking influences, the American influences, European influences and the modern Irish influences and all the other influences on the city and its people. OK, I may not be able to get them to taste the "Devil's Buttermilk" as many of them call Uncle Arthur and Dublin's most famous product, but I'd still show them there is a lot more to this city and indeed this country, than they have been led to believe!


There are huge British influences here. Through BBC and UTV in particular, aswell as the other channels, we get a huge range of British TV. Much of the North is inaccessible to RTE, which is why some perceptions of here persist. Even on RTE and TV3 there are many of the British programmes. We speak English, which of course has been a great benefit to the Irish in international terms both as emmigrants and in our dealings with other nations. Our history links us. We are swamped with British sport, music, culture, print-media, news, personalities, shops, products etc. Many Irish people have as big an interest in the Royal family as does any Loyalist. I passed the British Embassy the week after Diana's death and its gates and railings were covered in flowers. Books of condolences for that event and many of the atrocities in the North have come from here signed a broad spectrum of us.



Most of our legal system and political structures are still based on Britain's and still follow modern British changes, as I pointed out in my previous post. Britain is our biggest trading partner and a huge source of tourism. Because of our strong commercial and economic links to Britain we have to keep in touch with what is happening there. The list of connections and things we have in common is huge.



The average Irish person probably knows a lot more about Britain than the average British person or Northern Unionist knows about here. So the question is: are we really so different? Yes we are different. But the people in Cork are different to those in Dublin, or Limerick or Mayo or Offaly or anywhere else we care to mention. The people in Belfast are diffent to those in Derry or Armagh or any other part of the north. We are all different, but we have a lot more in common than divides us. Much of what does divide us is just a mindset.

darkman2

May I throw a spanner in the works here. The ROI could easily afford the north because everything from tax regime to governance would change to our regime. In fact the North could be the 'Celtic tiger' of the ROI propping up OUR economy if united. Or else we could go the way of Germany!:p

brianthebard

darkman2 wrote:

May I throw a spanner in the works here. The ROI could easily afford the north because everything from tax regime to governance would change to our regime. In fact the North could be the 'Celtic tiger' of the ROI propping up OUR economy if united. Or else we could go the way of Germany!:p

Care to expand on that?

Tar.Aldarion

Harpoon wrote:

the republic on the verge of recession, whoahhh where are you getting that from.

I imagine he got it from common sense, and if that is not enough, I do a course which goes in depth as to why we a re due one.
The better thing is, the cycle is increasing in speed. Every time a recession takes place it will be over faster.

kevmy

Flukey wrote:

None of this will happen overnight, and it would have to be a step by step handover with transitional support from Britain in terms of things like finance and investment etc. The British exchequer would for a time continue to contribute in the support of Northern Ireland as things changed over, slowly reducing involvement. There are many complex issues in such a change, but it could be done, albeit with some very careful management.

I agree with all of this. But I also think it will that a long time to happen and it should not be rushed into or forced on anybody.

When I said "Dublin Rule" I was using it as it is often seen by some of our more hardline Loyalist friends (as a cross between the Devil and the Pope) and not as serious excuse.

As regards our immenient recession it's not that immenient (we're safe for a few years yet), it won't be that hard (we'll never go back to the 80's as we've moved on to far in almost every aspect) and it will effect the most people who are not sensible now (due to changing demographics there will be less young people looking for jobs for the next 15 years therefore less jobs needed to fill and those not saving now or putting money towards pensions will be caught out). The people of course who will get screwed the most are the poor and the disadvantaged. This will unfortunately be one of the legacys left by the present government - in that they have not raise enough people further from the poverty line.

Don't get to depressed though cause the surest way to bring on a recession is to think a recession is just around the corner. Stay positive people

greenkittie

Flukey wrote:

So much of the day to day life of the average person in Northern Ireland will not be majorly affected by becoming part of a united Ireland.
.

:eek: i'd sorely miss my free healthcare!

csk

kevmy wrote:

I agree with you here except that a lot of Northeners don't want a United Ireland - at least 50%.

Yes of course this is the main obstacle and always has been. However with closer ties, economic and social, then most Unionists will see that their pathologoical hatred of all things southern is unfounded.

Also if the predicted demographic shifts happen then that 50% could be eradicated sooner than some like to think.

Flukey wrote:

Much of what does divide us is just a mindset.

Would fully agree, in fact I would say much of the more rabid strains of Unionism is a false consciousness stuck back in the 18thCentury, that really is irrelevant in todays world.

sceptre wrote:

It's the childlike assumption that most consumers have that things are the way they are and that's the way they'll always be until they wake up some morning in a cold sweat that tends to throw economies into the crapper.

I hope that child like assumption bit was not aimed at me. :rolleyes:

Sleepy

csk wrote:

Would fully agree, in fact I would say much of the more rabid strains of Unionism is a false consciousness stuck back in the 18thCentury, that really is irrelevant in todays world.

LOL, you could (and I would) say the exact same about Irish Republicanism. Though most southern 'Republicans' would soon change their minds when faced with the economic reality of any union.

"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone..."

... and thank fvck for that.

kevmy

csk wrote:

Also if the predicted demographic shifts happen then that 50% could be eradicated sooner than some like to think.

I know that but AFAIK it takes a certain percentage (around 70% i think) of Unionist politicians in the Assembly to agree to the vote on All Ireland status before the referendum can go ahead. So it doesn't really matter what percentage of the overall pop just percentage of Unionist politicans

Bob the Builder

Yes, ye' would, cos now, ireland is about 6billion richer than ye lot, but the biggest problem would be to merge the two states...

jimmycrackcorm

kevmy wrote:

I know that but AFAIK it takes a certain percentage (around 70% i think) of Unionist politicians in the Assembly to agree to the vote on All Ireland status before the referendum can go ahead. So it doesn't really matter what percentage of the overall pop just percentage of Unionist politicans

Source for this anti-democratic information?

csk

Sleepy wrote:

LOL, you could (and I would) say the exact same about Irish Republicanism.

Yes you could and I would agree but you obviously missed the point of why I said Unionism in the first place.

Though most southern 'Republicans' would soon change their minds when faced with the economic reality of any union.

You miss the point entirely WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ECONOMIC REALITY OF ANY UNION WILL BE. Unless of course you are somehow psychic and can predict the future ?

Sleepy to paraphrase your good self, the way I see it is that Ireland is our collective house. As it stands, we have a small minority living in the coal shed whilst the vast majority live in double en suite bathrooms.

Sleepy isn't it funny how principles seem to be dead and gone when potentially your own economic welfare comes under threat ?

csk

kevmy wrote:

I know that but AFAIK it takes a certain percentage (around 70% i think) of Unionist politicians in the Assembly to agree to the vote on All Ireland status before the referendum can go ahead. So it doesn't really matter what percentage of the overall pop just percentage of Unionist politicans

I thought it had something to do with the Secretary of State as well but I'm not sure.

But surely if Nationalist population increased then so too would their representation in the Assemby and so they would carry any potential vote ?

It would hardly have to be 70% of designated Unionists in the Assembly because that sounds wholly undemocratic to me. Even if there were only say ten Unionist politicians left, then 7 of them could hold the rest of Northern Ireland to ransom ? That's sound wholly undemocratic to me but I'll check.

kevmy

csk wrote:

I thought it had something to do with the Secretary of State as well but I'm not sure.

But surely if Nationalist population increased then so too would their representation in the Assemby and so they would carry any potential vote ?

It would hardly have to be 70% of designated Unionists in the Assembly because that sounds wholly undemocratic to me. Even if there were only say ten Unionist politicians left, then 7 of them could hold the rest of Northern Ireland to ransom ? That's sound wholly undemocratic to me but I'll check.

I'm not certain about the numbers on that but I'm almost certain that some decisions have to be made by a majority of both Unionists and Nationlists to ensure that one side cannot force decisions on the other side.

Sleepy

csk, nice comeback on the 'collective house' but to look at that analogy again, I'd see the Republic of Ireland as one house and the North as our Neighbour's extension - i.e. their problem, not ours

brianthebard

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Source for this anti-democratic information?

How is that undemocratic? he just explained that a democratic vote was necessary.

Terry

brianthebard wrote:

How is that undemocratic? he just explained that a democratic vote was necessary.

because it is one sided.
the unionists do not make up 70% of the population of the north. (52% at the last count and falling due to population growth amongst nationalists). even If only 51% of the nationalists wanted a united Ireland, then it should really only require 51% unionist support.

csk

Sleepy wrote:

csk, nice comeback on the 'collective house' but to look at that analogy again, I'd see the Republic of Ireland as one house and the North as our Neighbour's extension - i.e. their problem, not ours

Quite but you do see how such comments of yours could be misconstrued as hypocritical especially if I was to further paraphrase the one about "lottery of Birth" etc.

The whole "its their problem let's bury our heads in the sand til it goes away" is precisely how we found our way into this mess in the first place.

Suffice it to say whether you see them as such or not, the people of the north are just as Irish as you or me (well me at least).

hmmm

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Source for this anti-democratic information?

A democracy does not mean simple majority rule.

Sleepy

csk wrote:

Quite but you do see how such comments of yours could be misconstrued as hypocritical especially if I was to further paraphrase the one about "lottery of Birth" etc.

Not at all. As members of the EU, British citizens are entitled to move to Ireland whenever they like. My arguments regarding "lottery of birth" would extend to not preventing freedom of movement or freedom of markets. I'm open to correction but I believe people in Northern have that right with respect to the Republic.

The whole "its their problem let's bury our heads in the sand til it goes away" is precisely how we found our way into this mess in the first place.

It's largely a problem of their own creation. The majority of people in the North didn't want to become part of the new Free State at the time of our nation's birth. TBH, if I'd been there at the time and had wanted to be part of it, I'd have moved south of the border. Easier said than done obviously but if being part of a nation that wasn't under British rule was that important to someone, I think it was the more sane option than trying to terrorise the rest of their country into submission.

Suffice it to say whether you see them as such or not, the people of the north are just as Irish as you or me (well me at least).

In your opinion. Many Northern people, both protestant and catholic, would very much disagree with you and from most surveys I've seen they make up the majority of the population of Northern Ireland.

bl1986

The north wud be much better off as part of a united ireland it wud eventually become as prosporous as the rest of ireland and overall both sides of the divide wud become better off, i know its not the same but we only have to look at sport and compare 32 county sports like rugby to partitioned sports like football to see this

Mr.Nice Guy

Sleepy wrote:

It's largely a problem of their own creation.

Nonsense. Northern Ireland was an entity constructed to guarantee unionist supremacy, brought into being thanks to British and Irish treaty delegates. Hardly a problem "of their own creation".

Sleepy wrote:

The majority of people in the North didn't want to become part of the new Free State at the time of our nation's birth.

Wow what a flawed sentence. The nation is the island, don't confuse statehood with nationhood. And what is this "North" you speak of? According to poll results of the time, Fermanagh and Tyrone had a 55-45% nationalist population. These people were taken into the Northern Ireland entity. And if you look at the 9 counties of Ulster, it was an even split - hence why 3 counties were ultimately excluded. So to say "the majority of people in the North didn't want to become part of the new Free State" is utterly inaccurate. They weren't given a chance.

Sleepy wrote:

TBH, if I'd been there at the time and had wanted to be part of it, I'd have moved south of the border.

You would have uprooted your family and left relatives, friends and a steady job behind to go live in a different part of the island and face a difficult and uncertain future? Oh how brave of you!

Sleepy wrote:

Easier said than done obviously but if being part of a nation that wasn't under British rule was that important to someone, I think it was the more sane option than trying to terrorise the rest of their country into submission.

Yes because all nationalists "terrorised" the rest of their "country", didn't they? Have you been reading Ian Paisley's history of Ulster by any chance?

Terry

Who screwed around with my edit?

have at it.

Free staters vs Nordies./
The Nordies wanted to be part of the free state, but we abandoned them.

Here is what really happened:

75 years ago, peole who are no longer alive made a political decision.
part of Ireland remained in Ulster, the rest was what was to become the republic of Ireland.
Deal with it.
We are not out to get you.
We don't have it in for you.
The PSNI don't have it in for you either.
Grow the **** up, learn to realise that the IRA ? INLA ? whatever are terrorists and so are the UVF/ UNLA/ Whoever.
We in the south don't care for that.
Sort your own problems out and then come crying to us about crap.
Or else just grow up.
Yeah, that's the best one.
Just grow up.

K-9

I agree with Terry's general point. I want a United Ireland but the political situation at the minute isn't a great advertisement for it. Not even an agreed Northern government, So how could there be an agreed 32 county united Ireland. There's no point just incorporating the same problems and prejudices in a United Ireland.

Terry

Huh?
I was just wondering who screwed with the edit I made to the title of the thread.
I made a point?
I'm off to edit the title again.

EDIT:
Sems I can't edit the title.

nesf

Terry wrote:

Huh?
I was just wondering who screwed with the edit I made to the title of the thread.
I made a point?
I'm off to edit the title again.

EDIT:
Sems I can't edit the title.

Hmm, but I can...

brianthebard

bl1986 wrote:

The north wud be much better off as part of a united ireland it wud eventually become as prosporous as the rest of ireland and overall both sides of the divide wud become better off, i know its not the same but we only have to look at sport and compare 32 county sports like rugby to partitioned sports like football to see this

Yes lets compare a small sport that relatively few nations play to a world wide sport played by just about everyone. That'll be all the proof needed to ensure that the six counties return to the warm bosom of Irish Irishness.:rolleyes:

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Judt

Economically speaking, a "United Ireland" would be a disaster. The GDP per capita in Northern Ireland is €19,603. In The Republic of Ireland it's €41,000. In NI the government accounts for 63% of the economy, versus 36% in the ROI.

The UK government accounts for 20% of NI's economy in subvention (economic aid by any other name); that's £5 billion, or about €7.43 billion. Our revenue in the ROI last year was €44.3 billion, and the budget €45.4 billion. Given that NI is a net loser of funds just to keep the ship running, let alone invest the billions it takes for an economic turnaround, our budget would increase dramatically without a significant increase in revenue. National debt would go through the roof and both the North and the South would be worse off - the south would lose huge amounts of money to the north, and the north would not get enough money to make itself economically viable.

darkman2

Judt wrote:

Economically speaking, a "United Ireland" would be a disaster. The GDP per capita in Northern Ireland is €19,603. In The Republic of Ireland it's €41,000. In NI the government accounts for 63% of the economy, versus 36% in the ROI.

The UK government accounts for 20% of NI's economy in subvention (economic aid by any other name); that's £5 billion, or about €7.43 billion. Our revenue in the ROI last year was €44.3 billion, and the budget €45.4 billion. Given that NI is a net loser of funds just to keep the ship running, let alone invest the billions it takes for an economic turnaround, our budget would increase dramatically without a significant increase in revenue. National debt would go through the roof and both the North and the South would be worse off - the south would lose huge amounts of money to the north, and the north would not get enough money to make itself economically viable.

I will get my 2 cents in here. The Republic could afford the North and much easier then people think. Your tax system would be abolished. The Republic need a deprived six counties really because that means growth for us. Your tax system would be changed to ours and that changes things significantly because FDI would flow like a river into the North. It would mean less to spend here but only for a time. The North of our country would develope quickly in a UI and it would eventually become net contributer to our coffers. Lets face it, the North is poor compared to us. The British dont give a sh!t what happens there. In fact they are slyly off loading it on us. Thankfully we can afford it now but will the Celtic Tiger stay?