7 Months of FIAT.... Can you beat it?

r3nu4l

3ps wrote:

I don't see many new FIATs on the road......

By November 06 in year-to-date analysis Fiat had seen a 20.6% increase in sales and was 7th in terms of cars sold throughout Europe.

See Table 1 here

I agree that pricing is a factor for lots of buyers...but again if Fiat were so terrible nobody would buy one cheap if they knew they were going to be spending a couple of hundred every few months.

BTW, I don't work for Fiat but do own one...it's a Stilo that hasn't given me any problems since I bought it and in the last four months I've added 6,000 miles to the clock.

John R

Demmo wrote:

People seem to think that Fiat have the worst cars on the road, they don't. How come they're one of the best sellers across Europe since the Punto came out in 1994. And the Uno has sold millions before it. You can't argue with volume sold, and top ten sales over a number of years. I'd guarantee you that there are other manufacturers out there that are a whole lot worse.

Such as?

r3nu4l wrote:

I don't agree...and not just because I own a Fiat If all Fiat cars were truly as terrible as some people on boards.ie like to make out then nobody would buy them.

Think about it, if a car is cheap but you know that you are going to be spending thousands on repairs every year then you're not going to buy that car now are you?

If all Fiat cars were that bad then everyone would know about it and Fiat sales would be far lower than they are now.

Lots of people will ALWAYS go for the cheap option, no matter what evidence suggests it is a bad bet, in the hope that they will be lucky. Besides the ignorance of the general public reigns supreme.

People buy cars with lousy reputations and are then surprised when they fall apart in their driveways.

JD Power 2005 survey results: Fiat 31st out of 32 manufacturers and the last place... Alfa Romeo, what a shock. http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=214562&EL=3121184#



http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=214562

Owen

ronoc wrote:

You missed out cheap to run.
I think for the money in most cases they are getting a very good quality package.
Expensive is not the same as quality. Nor does cheapness Imply lack of quality.

I think you missed the sarcasm, you're supposed to be disagreeing, yet you're validating my points. IMHO expensive prices, for the majority of things, food, cars, clothing, jewellery, technology does for the most part delivers quality. Cheapness for the most part does also imply lack of quality.

Compare a Casio to a TAG Heuer and the difference is blatantly obvious, this translates to the Motor Trade also. Compare a Panda to a VW. The Panda has horribly poor quality in finish, the switchgear is cheap and nasty, and IMO will fail in time. The Stilo is untouchable in the Motor Trade and holds little no residual value due to woeful reliability problems.

Biro

Every survey returns a different result, I've seen one where Fiat were ahead of Audi.
Fiat are nowhere near as bad as the reputation. Besides budget, you also get some design flair, and very good engines. A 1.2 80bhp as opposed to a VW offering of 1.4 and 75bhp.

Sleipnir

My Dad's Fiat Ritmo burst into flames as he was driving along. No warning or anything just flame and smoke coming out through the air vents etc.

Funny thing was it happened right outside the spanish embassy and my dads flaming car hit the kerb and jumped on to the path right out front.
Out comes the spanish security guards screaming etc. They thought it was E.T.A
My dad said he had to sit one the poor fellas down as he looked like he was having a heart attack.

Biro

ned78 wrote:

I think you missed the sarcasm, you're supposed to be disagreeing, yet you're validating my points. IMHO expensive prices, for the majority of things, food, cars, clothing, jewellery, technology does for the most part delivers quality. Cheapness for the most part does also imply lack of quality.

Compare a Casio to a TAG Heuer and the difference is blatantly obvious, this translates to the Motor Trade also. Compare a Panda to a VW. The Panda has horribly poor quality in finish, the switchgear is cheap and nasty, and IMO will fail in time. The Stilo is untouchable in the Motor Trade and holds little no residual value due to woeful reliability problems.

The Panda isn't that horribly poor. It's cheap and cheerful alright, but I wouldn't say crap. The Polo interior is dull and cheap looking too, if a little better put together.
In my opinion the worst quality interior based on the cost of a car that I've been in in the last few years was a 04 mini. That silvery kind of paint was flaking off, and in general it was very poor considering it's price. Very nice to drive alright. Surprisingly cramped inside given the outer footprint of the car.

r3nu4l

John R wrote:

JD Power 2005 survey results: Fiat 31st out of 32 manufacturers and the last place... Alfa Romeo, what a shock. http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=214562&EL=3121184#



http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=214562

Lies, damn lies and statistics...In this result (click link at bottom of page for table) Fiat is still not up there with the best but is coming out on top of the likes of Saab, Seat and Audi whereas Audi and Saab are 9th and 10th in your table :rolleyes: I'm sure we can all find stats that vary, my experience so far tells me that at least my car is reliable despite what the goons in the motor trade think

ned78

ned78 wrote:

I think you missed the sarcasm, you're supposed to be disagreeing, yet you're validating my points. IMHO expensive prices, for the majority of things, food, cars, clothing, jewellery, technology does for the most part delivers quality. Cheapness for the most part does also imply lack of quality.

Compare a Casio to a TAG Heuer and the difference is blatantly obvious, this translates to the Motor Trade also. Compare a Panda to a VW. The Panda has horribly poor quality in finish, the switchgear is cheap and nasty, and IMO will fail in time. The Stilo is untouchable in the Motor Trade and holds little no residual value due to woeful reliability problems.

Eh, No I'm not perhaps you should Read -> Comprehend before you Reply.

For the low price you get a high level of standard equipment, stuff that most other marques have on their extras lists.

You may pay less but you get value for your money and a car that is one of the cheapest to run around.

Deprecation is high but that also works in your favour if you are buying second hand to hold on to it.

What I am saying in case you still think I am validating your points is you get alot for that low price. Value is the key word!

Owen

ronoc wrote:

Eh, No I'm not perhaps you should Read -> Comprehend before you Reply.

For the low price you get a high level of standard equipment, stuff that most other marques have on their extras lists.

You may pay less but you get value for your money and a car that is one of the cheapest to run around.

Deprecation is high but that also works in your favour if you are buying second hand to hold on to it.

What I am saying in case you still think I am validating your points is you get alot for that low price. Value is the key word!

I went to dinner with herself last night. She's Polish, so we went to a Gospoda, a Polish Restaurant. I bought a main course for €8 (The most expensive was 12 Euro). I had an oversize dinnerplate arrived with enough food for 2 people, and 3 side dishes, and the food was average. If I go to a better restaurant, and pay more, I usually get smaller portions, and less quantity, but the quality is far superior.

And the same applies to cars. Yes you can buy a full loaded FIAT for buttons, but when all's said and done, it's still a FIAT. I'd rather the more expensive car, with optional equipment that costs more, but with optional equipment that's still going to work in 30 years. That's the difference between quality and quantity.

Biro

ned78 wrote:

I went to dinner with herself last night. She's Polish, so we went to a Gospoda, a Polish Restaurant. I bought a main course for €8 (The most expensive was 12 Euro). I had an oversize dinnerplate arrived with enough food for 2 people, and 3 side dishes, and the food was average. If I go to a better restaurant, and pay more, I usually get smaller portions, and less quantity, but the quality is far superior.

And the same applies to cars. Yes you can buy a full loaded FIAT for buttons, but when all's said and done, it's still a FIAT. I'd rather the more expensive car, with optional equipment that costs more, but with optional equipment that's still going to work in 30 years. That's the difference between quality and quantity.

But you're tarring Fiat as being just crap. Thats just incorrect. One of my mates had a clio and another had a Bravo. The Bravo was better built, better engine, nicer looking inside and out, and much more comfortable to drive. The new grande punto I had rented on holidays was a sound car. Not cheap and tacky at all, compared to the competition. Cars like the daewoo matiz and the like are the cheap crap that you talk about.
The 1-series is a classic point to negate your statement that the more you pay the better you get. Are you saying that for 30 grand you really are getting what you're paying for?

Owen

Biro wrote:

But you're tarring Fiat as being just crap. Thats just incorrect.

From my experience of my two FIAT company purchases, it's indeed correct. A good friend worked as a salesman for FIAT, and he used to dread breakdowns as something would always go wrong.

Biro wrote:

The 1-series is a classic point to negate your statement that the more you pay the better you get. Are you saying that for 30 grand you really are getting what you're paying for?

The 1 Series is overengineered. It has rear wheel drive, quality plastics, fabrics and upholstery. It also has quite a lot of safety equipment, and the standard equipment list includes 16" Alloys, ABS, Tire Pressure Sensors, Aircon, 6 Airbags, Traction Control, Front Foglamps, CD, iPod interface, Electric Windows, Electric Mirrors, Power Steering, Alarm, Immobiliser, Follow me home Headlamps. By no means a basic car. Is it worth 30k? Perhaps it's a little overpriced, but it's not a million miles away from an A3, and to be fair to the 1 Series, it does hold it's value slightly better in the long term.

You will see a lot more 20 year old 1 Series on the road than 20 year old Puntos come 2027. There are quite a lot of E30 3 Series on the road today driving as well as they ever did. That's build quality. And before anyone even thinks of saying the 1 Series doesn't have the build quality of the E30, visit the factory, and view the comparissons they have on the wall there yourself, it's every bit as good, if not better.

Biro

OK, for one thing those standard features are on loads of cars in that price bracket, and you can also get them on a punto. And I'd actually love to see a 1-series get the same treatment that most punto's get. Most people who buy puntos don't spend another cent on the car, whereas the 1-series buyers service them on the button and mind them.
I've heard of more BMW engine trouble than Fiat. I'd agree that the BMW built quality is better, so therefore you'll have buttons breaking and electrics failing more often maybe than on the beemer, but Fiat engines, handling and style are very good compared to the opposition.
And I don't care how well put together BMW say it is, I just can't see the point in a 116. For the price, it really is a rip off.

Owen

Biro wrote:

I've heard of more BMW engine trouble than Fiat.

Of course you have. It's accepted as the norm on a FIAT, whereas with BMW, people feel the need to tell others when it happens.

Biro

ned78 wrote:

Of course you have. It's accepted as the norm on a FIAT, whereas with BMW, people feel the need to tell others when it happens.

Now that is a load of sh!te. It's the other way around. People love to sing about how unreliable Fiat and Alfa are, but never ever mention about problems with anything German. Maybe they're ashamed that they spend that much money on a heap of muck.
VW/Audi are particularly bad for this. Typically they all brag about how great their VW or Audi is, and you happen to hear on the offchance that the engine failed, or the electrics are causing relentless bother. Where as someone locks their keys into a punto and they'll sing to the neighbour about how crappy fiat are. Or they own it for 4 years, clock up 50,000 miles without any maintenance, and wonder at how something has broken.
BMW's by and large are OK for reliability, but I know people who have blown 316 engines, a 528 that overheated within a year, and the owner subsequently found out that there was cases against BMW in England for people getting scalded by steam, and apart from those extreme examples were known to overheat anyway.

John R

r3nu4l wrote:

Lies, damn lies and statistics...In this result (click link at bottom of page for table) Fiat is still not up there with the best but is coming out on top of the likes of Saab, Seat and Audi whereas Audi and Saab are 9th and 10th in your table :rolleyes: I'm sure we can all find stats that vary, my experience so far tells me that at least my car is reliable despite what the goons in the motor trade think

If you actually read the link to that survey you would have found out that it is formed of the opinions of neither ME nor goons in the motor trade but people that have bought the cars.

Rudolph Claus

Why cant ye folk just buy Hondas, theres plenty to go around for all sorts of budgets. For the conservative spender just buy a 1990 civic because it will still be more reliable than a fookin Fiat.

Just thought i`d share a snippet of information with ye townees that Fiat made absolutely brillant tractors. Fiat Agri tractors are even sought after to a certain extent by some farmers. I know of 2 lads looking for the 110/90 Fiat and i know of many others with big horsepower ones with 10,000hours. My uncles mate has an F140 that has more than paid for itself 10 fold and still going strong. He also has a 110/90. My uncle himself worked for a farming contractor with an entire FiatAgri line-up and they were often regarded as the best tractor of the time. This is about 10-20 years ago, my uncle has since since set-up on his own with diggers and tractors in time for the property boom and has made an absolute fortune using Fiat tractors,,, but more recently Case IH tractors are his thing.
There are a lot of Fiat tractors in Holland that were used in light harvesting and are absolutely in mint condition, these tractors are dating from 1990 - 1998. My uncle`s friend is a plant dealer and is importing some of these particular tractors from Holland and people people are literally queing up for them. The particular 110/90 model i mentioned earlier is an ideal size of tractor for small Irish farms, its 110hp and 4wheel drive and will take a loader no bother.

Sorry for the culchie lesson but its funny to think how SEVERE the difference is between Fiat tractors and Fiat/Alfa cars. You`d wonder if they`re the same company,, think ill go and look that up.

johncm

r3nu4l wrote:

I've had my Stilo ('02 used) for four months now and not had a single problem with it! In fact, it's been a pleasure to drive although the 1.2 engine is puny for a car that size.

That said, it does the job I want it to and easily travels along at 80-90 mph on the A14 without any complaint.

On another note, I think it's strange that FIAT are replacing the Stilo with the Bravo name, seeing as how the Stilo was supposed to replace the Bravo/Brava name in the first place.

the newer stilo has a 1.4 enginein it so its a very nice car to drive. ive seen pics of the new bravo and it looks very nice

r3nu4l

John R wrote:

If you actually read the link to that survey you would have found out that it is formed of the opinions of neither ME nor goons in the motor trade but people that have bought the cars.

I think you misunderstood me, I had moved on from the survey at that point when I referred to the goons in the motor trade, I was referring to all the goons you meet up with in the garages, that purport to know everything about every car manufacturer. :rolleyes:

Also the survey I posted showing Audi and Saab below Fiat was also put together from a survey of ordinary car owners just like the one you posted and it was taken 2006, not 2005 like yours. I doubt Audi and Saab suddenly became crap in one year so I don't put any faith in those surveys. A cleverly designed survey can show anything you want it to show, that's the beauty of it.

Biro

Nuttzy wrote:

Why cant ye folk just buy Hondas, theres plenty to go around for all sorts of budgets. For the conservative spender just buy a 1990 civic because it will still be more reliable than a fookin Fiat.

Just thought i`d share a snippet of information with ye townees that Fiat made absolutely brillant tractors. Fiat Agri tractors are even sought after to a certain extent by some farmers. I know of 2 lads looking for the 110/90 Fiat and i know of many others with big horsepower ones with 10,000hours. My uncles mate has an F140 that has more than paid for itself 10 fold and still going strong. He also has a 110/90. My uncle himself worked for a farming contractor with an entire FiatAgri line-up and they were often regarded as the best tractor of the time. This is about 10-20 years ago, my uncle has since since set-up on his own with diggers and tractors in time for the property boom and has made an absolute fortune using Fiat tractors,,, but more recently Case IH tractors are his thing.
There are a lot of Fiat tractors in Holland that were used in light harvesting and are absolutely in mint condition, these tractors are dating from 1990 - 1998. My uncle`s friend is a plant dealer and is importing some of these particular tractors from Holland and people people are literally queing up for them. The particular 110/90 model i mentioned earlier is an ideal size of tractor for small Irish farms, its 110hp and 4wheel drive and will take a loader no bother.

Sorry for the culchie lesson but its funny to think how SEVERE the difference is between Fiat tractors and Fiat/Alfa cars. You`d wonder if they`re the same company,, think ill go and look that up.

Very true, the Fiat tractors are savage, and pure reliable. Is the 100/90 a 5 cylinder? The only problem (which I'd get over) is the position of the pedals in relation to the seat, they're kind of too upright, but other than that I reckon I should get one!

Seth Brundle

Are Fiat & Ford New Holland tractors not the same?

cpoh1

Lads as Arsene Wenger once famously said "everybody thinks their own wife is the prettiest". Fiat owners for the most part on here are going to defend the brand they bought and have stuck with.

From my own experiences, I dont know how many times ive been with a friend mechanic when he's done the head gasket on a fiat, usually puntos and bravos. Even after the heads been done its not unusual to see the same car in again a month later even after a skim, new gasket, timing belt, water pump, thermostat and new coolant. For every satisfied customer there are two with terrible problems with their car!

r3nu4l

cpoh1 wrote:

Fiat owners for the most part on here are going to defend the brand they bought and have stuck with.

Not really fair, I'm basing my comments on my own experience, not that of a friend or what I heard in the pub or from a mate in the garage. I've also owned an Opel and loved it despite what Jeremy Clarkson might say about them

For me, I have no brand loyalty, I say it as I see it. A friend of mine has a BMW 3 series that is in and out of the garage every month or two. She told me her friend who also owns a 3 series is having trouble as well...I don't go around saying BMW are crap just because two of the 3 BMW owners I know are having problems with their cars! :rolleyes:

I'd like to hear from other Fiat owners on boards, the Punto was best selling car in Europe for years there must be plenty of owners on boards.ie...let's hear from them about all the problems they've had, then I'll believe what I'm hearing, directly from the owners, not the usual tripe from a 'friend of a friend who's brother works in a garage'.

That said, if these owners do appear and say they have had nothing but trouble I'll concede and be glad that my trouble-free motor is the finest ever built by Fiat

cpoh1

r3nu4l-I see what your saying about the old wives tales from a friend of a friend of a friend. In thi scase ive spent hours with my mate at his garage fixing cars, a high proportion of them head gaskets on fiats and every now and then a 4cyl bmw or opel. I may not own a fiat but I have first hand experience taking off their heads, getting them skimmed and replacing gaskets. you can believe it or not, im not too bothered, just sharing my experienes like I said.

As an aside, bmw has a reputation for build quality that a little unjustified since the 90's imo. i know of lots of guys with 4cyl engines that were not happy owners.

zilog_jones

ned78 wrote:

You will see a lot more 20 year old 1 Series on the road than 20 year old Puntos come 2027. There are quite a lot of E30 3 Series on the road today driving as well as they ever did. That's build quality. And before anyone even thinks of saying the 1 Series doesn't have the build quality of the E30, visit the factory, and view the comparissons they have on the wall there yourself, it's every bit as good, if not better.

For the record, there's this little old lady I occasionally see driving around the Northside of Limerick in a yellow Fiat 127 - that car must be at least 23 years old! I rarely see any BMWs this old - most the E30s around are at least an '89 or '90.

alias no.9

cpoh1 wrote:

I dont know how many times ive been with a friend mechanic when he's done the head gasket on a fiat, usually puntos and bravos. Even after the heads been done its not unusual to see the same car in again a month later even after a skim, new gasket, timing belt, water pump, thermostat and new coolant.

To be honest, if any car blows it's head gasket within a month of having it replaced, I'd question the mechanic, either he made a balls of the job or the gasket blew due to an underlying problem that went undiagnosed.

cpoh1

alias no.9 wrote:

To be honest, if any car blows it's head gasket within a month of having it replaced, I'd question the mechanic, either he made a balls of the job or the gasket blew due to an underlying problem that went undiagnosed.

What exactly are you insinuating here?!

Have you ever taken a head off a car, had it skimmed and changed a gasket on a fiat before??? Fiat head gaskets go because they have a really crap cooling system and a soft as chewy chewitts head on them that warp when they even hint at overheating. If you are really unlucky you wont even be able to skim the head the thing will be that badly warped. It has nothing to do with the mechanic and everything to do with crap engineering. Most of the puntos fixed didnt even have temp gauges inside the car!!!

Biro

I don't own a Fiat, I own a Toyota. I'm basing my opinion on family and friends owning countless trouble free Fiats of various models.
The bravo you speak of could be the older 1.4, which wasn't the best. The newer 1.2 was a good car.

alias no.9

cpoh1 wrote:

What exactly are you insinuating here?!

Have you ever taken a head off a car, had it skimmed and changed a gasket on a fiat before??? Fiat head gaskets go because they have a really crap cooling system and a soft as chewy chewitts head on them that warp when they even hint at overheating. If you are really unlucky you wont even be able to skim the head the thing will be that badly warped. It has nothing to do with the mechanic and everything to do with crap engineering. Most of the puntos fixed didnt even have temp gauges inside the car!!!

To be honest what I was insinuating was that the situation you refered to was fantasy.

I don't believe any mechanic worth their salt would have the head off, have it skimmed and replace the head gasket only for it to blow again the next week, not even on a punto or a rover K-Series.

Head gaskets are a weak point on puntos, but you're exaggerating, plain and simple. I'm well aware of the lack of a temperature gauge on base model puntos. I'm also aware that the head on the punto is cast iron, just like the cylinder block, which means the head very rarely warps when the gasket blows.

In my immediate family we've had 4 puntos, 2 bravos, 2 unos, a stilo, and an old panda. Altogether they've covered the bones of a million miles. One of the puntos blew a gasket, none of the rest ever had any gasket truble, in fact they've been very reliable overall with little more than wear and tear items needing replacement.

cpoh1

alias no.9 wrote:

To be honest what I was insinuating was that the situation you refered to was fantasy.

I don't believe any mechanic worth their salt would have the head off, have it skimmed and replace the head gasket only for it to blow again the next week, not even on a punto or a rover K-Series.

Head gaskets are a weak point on puntos, but you're exaggerating, plain and simple. I'm well aware of the lack of a temperature gauge on base model puntos. I'm also aware that the head on the punto is cast iron, just like the cylinder block, which means the head very rarely warps when the gasket blows.

In my immediate family we've had 4 puntos, 2 bravos, 2 unos, a stilo, and an old panda. Altogether they've covered the bones of a million miles. One of the puntos blew a gasket, none of the rest ever had any gasket truble, in fact they've been very reliable overall with little more than wear and tear items needing replacement.

Youve got some bloody cheek :mad:

Because your immediate family have owned a few puntos you are 100% sure that ive made up something when I have absolutely no reason in doing so. And I said a month not a week either, get the aul facts striaght.

When I helped my mate change the head gasket the first time round, we changed the water pump, timing belt, head bolt studs, new gasket, .75mm skim from a reputable engineering shop in the area and a complete coolant flush. All the parts were oem fiat. The (lady) driver came back 6 weeks later having driven the car for two weeks with it over heating and with no fluid in the resevoir or rad. The whole head had to be scrapped it was so badly warped (the cam shft housing was way out of alignment), never mind your cast iron bull.

I dont like blowing my trumpet or putting other posters down but ive got more experience with cars than you will ever have. I dont need gob****es like you telling me what i have and have not worked on and seen with my own two eyes.

alias no.9

cpoh1 wrote:

Youve got some bloody cheek :mad:

Because your immediate family have owned a few puntos you are 100% sure that ive made up something when I have absolutely no reason in doing so. And I said a month not a week either, get the aul facts striaght.

When I helped my mate change the head gasket the first time round, we changed the water pump, timing belt, head bolt studs, new gasket, .75mm skim from a reputable engineering shop in the area and a complete coolant flush. All the parts were oem fiat. The (lady) driver came back 6 weeks later having driven the car for two weeks with it over heating and with no fluid in the resevoir or rad. The whole head had to be scrapped it was so badly warped (the cam shft housing was way out of alignment), never mind your cast iron bull.

I dont like blowing my trumpet or putting other posters down but ive got more experience with cars than you will ever have. I dont need gob****es like you telling me what i have and have not worked on and seen with my own two eyes.

That to me says the thing wasn't put back toegther properly and lost it's coolant straight away. I notice you dont mention doing a pressure test on the cooling system.