Sinn Fein backs police in historic vote

jank

then they will have brought the provos to an actual historical point.

What its 1993 and still the troubles in the North as bad as ever...:D

Oh right...:)

The more i listen to you Sand the more you begin to sound like Ann Coulter. You might take that as a compliment actually so ill retract it.:)

Jackie laughlin

SF are the provos. Remember: "Provisional Sinn Fein" and "Provisional IRA".

sceptre

Thin ice on the none-too-subtle personal jibes jank. Benefit of doubt removed should you require it at any point in the future. Please post like a rule-reading adult.

Raskolnikov

I'm sorry, but as someone who has lived in N. Ireland, foreigners like Sand and Jackie Laughlin don't have a clue what they're talking about.

For one, the issue of supporting policing isn't a concern for just Sinn Féin supporters. There are plenty of non Sinn Féin supporters out there who do not support the PSNI. If people think that this issue will disappear because Sinn Féin have endorsed the PSNI and have encouraged all members to abide by the UK rule of law, then they're mistaken.

Also, no one here (by the sounds of it), has endured the discrimination that many in the North have faced. In Portadown, it was only a decade ago that the police baton charged unarmed men and women staging a peaceful protest on the Garavaghy Road. A decade since Robert Hammill was beaten to death in the town centre while the RUC in the area did nothing to stop the attack. For crying out loud, there was even a priest put in hospital by the RUC for organising a St. Patricks' Day parade down a Catholic area. This isn't forgotten easily. In supporting policing, for many Catholics this is a two-way process. Once the police service proves itself to them as just, they will support it.

Another thing, I find ironic is how certain posters who find all things N. Ireland related so anathematic, can devote so much time and attention to something that doesn't concern them in the slightest. It's rather voyeuristic

sceptre

Raskolnikov wrote:

Also, no one here (by the sounds of it), has endured the discrimination that many in the North have faced. In Portadown, it was only a decade ago that the police baton charged unarmed men and women staging a peaceful protest on the Garavaghy Road. A decade since Robert Hammill was beaten to death in the town centre while the RUC in the area did nothing to stop the attack.

Apparently not by the sounds of it.

Although your profile says you're currently in Dublin, I'm assuming you've lived somewhere in NI at some point so you may well be a reasonable person to ask the same question I posed on page one of this thread, to which the person asked didn't bother their ass to reply. How would you rate the rule of law or policing in Northern Ireland at the moment, given that this is the obvious basis for the decision in question?

Jackie laughlin

Raskolnicov,
What a strange posting! It's utterly partitionist.

A Dub in Glasgo

sceptre wrote:

Pure supposition I'm afraid. Adding ellipsis doesn't make it any more true.

I am very much aware of that one

LordSutch

And about bloody time too ...........................

Lets see if their deeds match their words.

axer

Sand wrote:

This announcement doesnt mean that the SFIRA activists who saw Robert McCartney attacked and dragged out into the street to be butchered will give proper statements to assist PSNI inquiries.

I see Gerry Adams has called on anyone who saw anything in the Robert McCartney case to give full statements to the PSNI/RUC.

folk_smith

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

Jackie laughlin

Who approved/ordered the Adare raid? Will he/she/they report to the Gardai and confess? Failing that, will any member of SFIRA report them to the Gardai?

InFront

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

well there's always the rugby and cricket...

If 1916 signified death of the notion of a romantic Ireland, then I think the past few years have brought about the death of a United Ireland, at least politically speaking.

Rock Climber

InFront wrote:

If 1916 signified death of the notion of a romantic Ireland, then I think the past few years have brought about the death of a United Ireland, at least politically speaking.

How so?
I'd disagree.Pragmatism always wins if its used.Get rid of the violence,the reason to hate and see what happens.
We're already at a new dawn in that the likes of Willie McCrea is on the ropes looking for reasons to reject this new dawn.
The lack of reasons to reject it makes him and his ilk look like twats.

Mind you NI is NI and banana skins are bound to appear but at least theres less of them.Soon hopefully there will be none.

LordSutch

folk_smith wrote:

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

The 'Dream' may always be there for some people, but in reality, how would you tell the majority of people living in Northern Ireland that they are no longer British?

Sand

Ah but do you see a democracy with government parties elected by the voters of Northern Ireland because I sure as hell don't, have you seen collusion in our democracy simalar to that of the RUC???

I see a democracy in the north, but I accept your point that organisations like SFIRA arent fit to be part of a proper democracy. In terms of collusion, theres been investigation into "forces within forces" within the Gardai - Donegal for starters. Are you advocating that people should not co-operate with the Gardai? And lets not forget Haugheys little collusion episode. If there is a gap between people and the PSNI its down to decades of SFIRA policy to ensure there was a gap - a policy which included murdering people who co-operated with the police.

For them to lecture from the pulpit on acceptable policing is laughable given that their policing involved balaclavas and sticks with nails driven through them.

So in other words you were incorrect when you said it was been "Shutdown"!

The ARA has been shut down. Ceases to exist. Not in operation. Stopped. Not there. End of. When you can reconcile Hugh Ordes discontent with the move with your "shure theres no difference" view then let me know.

Oh right so you demand action and then when its delivered you slag them off for it,

Id demand, out of general principle, that if a group enters government that they operate like a political party rather than the Westies in suits. I dont think thats a whole hell of a lot to ask, nor do I think SFIRA deserve any credit for meeting basic standards of acceptable behaviour like "Dont murder people", or "Co-operate with the police", or "Dont run a criminal empire". I understand the Westies had issues with acceptable policing as well.

Sinn Fein have delivered, both the Irish and British governments agree on that, as for the DUP well we are still waiting

Delivered what exactly? They wont alert people if they hear dissidents are planning a terrorist attack apparently. Its reassuring that their "historic" movements come with a lot of conditions and sub clauses attached, at least we know some things never change.

As for the DUP I understand their policy has been fairly clear - Theyll go into government with SFIRA when it meets basic standards of behaviour: so basic that co-operating with the police is "historic".

The reality is for the Provos that even assuming the DUP enter powersharing with SFIRA, if a single incident like McCartneys murder [ 70 SFIRA activists, no eyewitnesses] occurs then the DUP will bail. They wont even wait for the courtcase. Theyll collapse the institution and walk. Thats the political reality. Because they dont trust SFIRA, theyve no good reason to trust SFIRA, their voters dont trust SFIRA, and their voters have no good reason to trust SFIRA.

Whatever about SFIRA distrust of the PSNI, Adams and McGuinness have the blood of thousands on their hands and the pain and suffering of tens of thousands on their consciences - assuming they have them. The DUP, nor any unionist party which represents the community Adams and McGuinness attacked, does not win a single vote from being seen close to SFIRA. If a single incident occurs, the instinctive and popular reaction will be to assume SFIRA is up to its old tricks and run for the high ground. Theyve seen what relying on SFIRA to deliver did for Trimble.

The SFIRA have to be boyscouts for a very, very long time. Adams selective attitude to co-operation with the police is not a good start.

I'm sorry, but as someone who has lived in N. Ireland, foreigners like Sand and Jackie Laughlin

Well, Im glad you recognise that much.

If people think that this issue will disappear because Sinn Féin have endorsed the PSNI and have encouraged all members to abide by the UK rule of law, then they're mistaken.

I dont think it will, see above.

Another thing, I find ironic is how certain posters who find all things N. Ireland related so anathematic, can devote so much time and attention to something that doesn't concern them in the slightest. It's rather voyeuristic

When SFIRA leave their traditional UK homeland and travel south into the Republic of Ireland seeking votes, bringing terrorist leaders like Gerry on tour to bask in the great mans limelight, touting their "historic" moments in the United Kingdom then it concerns me.

The more i listen to you Sand the more you begin to sound like Ann Coulter. You might take that as a compliment actually so ill retract it.

Yeah, grand, whatever...

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

Gone. The arrangements in NI are about normalising that part of the UK, not as a prep for unification. The EU has removed any sensible argument for it tbh.

InFront

Rock Climber wrote:

Pragmatism always wins if its used.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, a pragmatic attitude is a positive thing, but surely you see how it involves adjusting one's position, e.g. the "united Ireland" position.
Pragmatism was what created FF out of Sinn Fein, it created CnaG and FG out of the same party. I'm not sure how you think it would strengthen republicanism.

Get rid of the violence,the reason to hate and see what happens.

Yeah, powersharing in Northern Ireland.

Perhaps one day the North will chose to join the south, I don't know. Perhaps one day they will be ruled by Sweden, we don't know that either. I don't see why you think this makes a united Ireland more possible, I think people are bothering less and less with that concept lest it drop them into a different pit of unionism and stir up tensions again. I don't see it as a progressive attitude at all.

Jackie laughlin

Being Irish has nothing to do with the number of political jurisdictions on the island. It is a matter of culture.

SFIRA have created a phenomenon: 26 county nationalism.

FTA69

Jackie laughlin wrote:

SFIRA have created a phenomenon: 26 county nationalism.

There's no such thing, nationalism cannot be limited to regions, or else then we'd have to describe one's pride in one's county as "nationalism" as well. Provincialism or Regionalism would be better terms.

Raskolnikov

sceptre wrote:

How would you rate the rule of law or policing in Northern Ireland at the moment, given that this is the obvious basis for the decision in question?

I accept it, but with extreme reservations. We need to see a more balanced force. Where I lived, Portadown, out of a population of 26,000, there are currently no Catholics serving in the PSNI. Not only that, like I said earlier, some of those officers would have been involved in "policing" the Garavaghy Road during policing. Living in a Loyalist town that's still under LVF influence, I don't think it's unreasonable for Catholics to be sceptical. Another thing that I find unacceptable is the carrying of automatic weapons by the PSNI when on patrols. It's completely unnecessary given the climate we're in.

Jackie laughlin

FTA69,
I can't think of a definition of nationalism that doesn't mention territory. Because of this I tend to use the term "cultural nationalist" for someone not too concerned about jurisdictions.

However, until SF/IRA cranked up their murder machine, I didn't know anyone in the 26 counties who did not want a united Ireland. Nowadays it is common to hear people express a desire that the "6 counties" float away into the Atlantic. Indeed media outlets are well aware that Northern Ireland is a turn off for many people.