Gaelscoil or regular primary school?

dame

I've been wondering about this for a while as I've a daughter who'll be starting school in the next few years. There are both types of school in our local town. There are obvious benefits to attending school through Irish; learning the language fluently, finding it easier to pick up foreign languages later on, etc.

However, I have a few friends who attended different Gaelscoils and all say their English definitely suffered. Their spelling and grammar is bad (in English), and their accent speaking Irish sounds very book-learned (if you know what I mean). They speak it more slowly and don't sound like they grew up in a Gaeltacht anyway, that's for sure. Some of them say they got the bare minimum of English at school and very little practice with the reading books, even as young kids. One even said her teacher always told them English was a "filthy language" and that she didn't get them to write stories through English ever. This was obviously a bit of a set-back for kids who then go on to an English-speaking secondary school, with essay-type questions being required in a lot of subjects.

How do other parents feel about Gaelscoileanna? Do parents with children attending them feel that their grammar, spelling and writing skills are suffering? Or is the general concensus that being bi-lingual from the start of your school-days outweighs any negative effects? Are there any other things that I haven't thought of?

Gaspode

Both my older children started off in a gaelscoil, and to be honest I dont believe their english suffered too much. My daughter in particular is a fabulous reader and writer, and hasnt been held back by her years in that environment.
We moved them to an educate together school as we had a problem with a teacher getting physical with them that was not taken seriously by the school managment, so the decision to leave was nothing to do with the language.
They did struggle a little with some of the subjects like geography and nature as they had never done them thrugh english, but this was short-lived.

We never had reports any of the anglophobic racism of the type you've heard of. We did get a few people saying they had never figured us as nationalists (so far from the truth its unreal!) when they heard we were using the irish schools!

Overall, I think bi-lingualism is good, and makes it easier for children to learn other languages. However, 'Irishness' is part of the school culture, so dont expect rugby, soccer or any other sports to be encouraged for phys ed- Gaelic games and ceili all the way!

crosstownk

I'm all for learning Irish, but unless your child has has good aptitude for language, other subjects may suffer as they are taught through Irish and your child may have difficulty in grasping other subjects (maths for example) if it is learnt through Irish. I considered a Gaelscoil for my daughter, but as neither me nor Mrs Crosstownk speak Irish profeciently, we reckoned it could prove more difficult in the long run.

That said, I know parents who don't speak a word of Irish and sent their kids to a Gealscoil and they preformed well and can also speak fluent Irish now.

My sister in law is Mexican and teaches my daughter Spanish and I have to say she has grasped the concept quite well. Spanish is more beneficial as a language than Irish, but it's nice to teach the kids some 'heritage' if the opportunity arises.

Xiney

I'm interested in this topic myself because my husband and I like the idea of Gaelscoil for our (future) children.

You see, I'm French Canadian so I was always made aware of how important my heritage is, so I'd like my children to also have that same sense of pride in where they come from. As they'll be living in Ireland most likely, it's far easier to have them be "Irish" than French Canadian!

I went to English school until 12, when we moved to a new area and I was able to attend a French school. I already spoke French at home so it wasn't much trouble for me even though I'd never learned to read or write in it.

I graduated from a French secondary school and went on to University in English. None of these transitions hampered my languages, although I am more comfortable in English due to living in English speaking areas for the most part (and my parents relaxing their "French Only!!" rule at home once I started going to French school).


Now, of course I realise that the Irish system is completely different from the Canadian system and what I tell you about my own education will not necessarily apply to someone learning a language that is not used in the home. But a few salient points remain:

The transition from math in one language to math in another language is not too difficult. The names for things differs, but the concept does not. I went from English to French and back to English and I continued to succeed.

Writing an essay is a skill that can be acquired in either language. Once you know how to write an essay in one language, you know how to write an essay in another, granted you have a high enough level of knowledge in that language.

When I went to school in English, my parents only bought me French books and movies. (let me tell you, Lady and the Tramp is CRAP dubbed into French) When I went to school in French, they mainly suggested books in English (my mother was an English Lit major so she was always a great source for good books to read)

Our English program was meant to be equivalent to that of an English school, but due to the lower levels of proficiency of some of the students it simply fell a little short. However, I do not feel that I received an inferior education in English at all, because most of the English skills people gain are from practice in their daily lives: reading books is the single best way to actually learn.



So I say go for it! Your kids will probably thank you in the long run. I know I often didn't appreciate going to a different school from all the kids in my neighborhood, and being bussed for 45 minutes there and back, but in the end it's given me a far better appreciation of where I come from and who I am than if I simply had French Canadian roots and didn't speak the language.

Crea

I did Gaelscoil for secondary school - not for primary. I found the transition into secondary school extremely difficult especiall in subjects like history and geography which are very wordy. I was quite fluent in Irish on leaving school but didn't have the "blas" that Gaeltacht speakers have and always found it difficult to follow exactly what was said on Nuacht. Transition into college for some subjects was also difficult as I had learned them in Irish and had to translate them in my mind before applying them.
My children will be going to our local school which has a strong Irish focus but teaches the subjects in English. I won't be sending them to a Gaelscoil after my experience. My sister who went to the same school feels the same way as do our school friends.
If the child isn't going to go to an Irish secondary school I would definitely say not to send them to a Gaelscoil primary. If you do send them then make sure that they read English stories. This Harry Potter as gaeilge is all well and good but a bit up it's own arse if you ask me.

simu

I went to a Gaelscoil primary and secondary and all the kids were fine with English too. We did plenty of English essay-writing and so on. The students' Irish was also of a much higher standard than that of students from ordinary schools but you could not expect them to reach the level of Gaeltacht people tbh unless they really get into it and actually go and spend time in the Gaeltacht or with Gaeltacht people.

As for that teacher who said English is a filthy language, I would have made a complaint were I the parent of the child in question. It's disgraceful passing such ignorant views on to the younger generation.

nesf

dame wrote:

However, I have a few friends who attended different Gaelscoils and all say their English definitely suffered. Their spelling and grammar is bad (in English), and their accent speaking Irish sounds very book-learned (if you know what I mean). They speak it more slowly and don't sound like they grew up in a Gaeltacht anyway, that's for sure.

Honestly, your friends English probably didn't suffer because of going to a Gaelscoil if it is still poor today and they are out of second level, I would look for other factors. Assuming that their parents spoke English to them, that their friends spoke English to them and that they watched TV, listened to Radio etc etc then their standard of grammar especially is probably unrelated to having gone to a Gaelscoil to be honest.

Sending your child to a Gaelscoil will also most likely not make them sound like they grew up in a Gaeltacht. For that you would probably have to be speaking Irish to them at home from quite early on. Plus there is nothing wrong with someone's Irish sounding book-learned imho.


Have a look at studies of bi-lingualism and learning 2 or more languages from an early age. Counter-intuitively the child's standard in their mother tounge tends to not be aversely affected by having a second language. They seem to progress fine in both so long as they are hearing both being spoken to them regularily (like in a home with parents of different nationalites or whatever). It's very interesting stuff.

deisemum

Do you still get an extra 10% of your exam results added to you Leaving Cert results if you do it through Irish?

I know a principal of a Gaelscoil that will not take children unless they have an Irish name.

nesf

simu wrote:

As for that teacher who said English is a filthy language, I would have made a complaint were I the parent of the child in question. It's disgraceful passing such ignorant views on to the younger generation.

Teachers like that should lose their jobs tbh. Then getting rid of teachers is notoriously difficult, even when they are idiots.

deisemum wrote:

I know a principal of a Gaelscoil that will not take children unless they have an Irish name.

See above. I'm suprised he didn't ban people with Norman or British surnames while he was at it.

simu

deisemum wrote:

Do you still get an extra 10% of your exam results added to you Leaving Cert results if you do it through Irish?

I know a principal of a Gaelscoil that will not take children unless they have an Irish name.

So, what if they're Polish or sth?

nesf

simu wrote:

So, what if they're Polish or sth?

Then he'd tell them that this is a Celtic Christian Country (we aren't like the US and our hardliners use the much softer acronym of CCC) and to go back to Poland. Most likely anyways.

Gaspode

deisemum wrote:

Do you still get an extra 10% of your exam results added to you Leaving Cert results if you do it through Irish?

I think you still do

deisemum wrote:

I know a principal of a Gaelscoil that will not take children unless they have an Irish name.

You've got to laugh at that one!! What the hell is an irish name anyway? We're all descended from the english, normans, vikings, dutch, french, spanish, etc, etc, so its got to be completely indefineable!
I wonder would Walsh qualify - generally can be considered to be a name common only in Ireland, but by definition refers to someone from Wales!!:D
And we have to trust our childrens future to people like that?

simu

deisemum wrote:

Do you still get an extra 10% of your exam results added to you Leaving Cert results if you do it through Irish?

Only if you get under 75%. Above that, you get less of a bonus. See here: http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im

dame

Thanks for all the input folks. I'm still undecided.

I think the extra 10% for doing your leaving cert exams through Irish is still there. I think it's a bit much though. If the entire exam paper was through Irish then the kids would deserve their extra 10%, but since the paper is printed with both languages on the one paper, then that makes it easier for them to read it in English, formulate the correct answer, then translate it into fairly simple Irish. It should be completely Irish if they're going to be giving them extra marks and an advantage over other kids. Do they give kids whose mother tongue is not English extra marks for doing their exams through English? I don't think so, so why do it with Irish?

When my friends were going to school in Gaelscoils (about 15 years ago), the Gaelscoil was seen as being the "posh" option and therefore more desireable. People travelled for miles to attend a Gaelscoil rather than the local school. I don't think this is the case any more or is it? The pupil-teacher ratio has been decreased for all schools and schools are more modern and better funded now.

There's something else I wonder about Gaelscoils; do teachers get paid more for teaching there than they do in a regular school? I've a friend who struggled through her Irish in school. She learnt off realms of sample essays and sample answers to do with the poetry and managed to scrape an honour in her leaving cert, without actually having much understanding of the language. She went on to do Arts in college, reapplied through the CAO and got primary teaching after a few years and now teaches infants in a Gaelscoil (which is where she always wanted to teach). Forgive me for wondering but is the standard of Irish teaching in teacher training colleges so high that a person's Irish could be transformed like that? Or do Gaelscoils find it hard to find teachers with completely fluent Irish? Or is it a case of who you know will get you the job?

There are obviously good and bad teachers everywhere but are you more likely to get a bad teacher in a Gaelscoil cos they have difficulty finding fluent Irish speakers as teachers or is that even a problem for Gaelscoils?

I do agree that being bi-lingual is great and that plenty of reading in English should mean that there is no ill effect from learning everything through Irish. I have cousins who grew up abroad and went to school through French. Their English, French and their third language (learnt at second level) are all excellent, but the difference is that they spoke French with native French speakers at school and were taught by native French speakers. This is not the case with a Gaelscoil however. The teacher is not necessarily fluent and does not necessarily have fantastic Irish. Also the fact that the ones who are fluent got their place in the teacher training college with less CAO points because they are "Gaeltacht applicants" could mean that they wouldn't have been accepted for teacher training at all otherwise. Obviously they all qualified as teachers so they can teach but they may not be the best teachers of the bunch. In that case you'd be better off sending the child to any local primary school, taking your chance of getting a teacher who can teach Irish well, and watching TG4 at home and speaking Irish every second day or something.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much about this now and it doesn't really matter but I'd rather choose the best option now rather than find out the child is struggling with other subjects at age 12 or 13, without having much better Irish than would be gained from any local school.

NextSteps

Although the Gaelscoileanna are a great idea, I also wonder about the standard of the language. As a native speaker, I'm surprised at the way teachers and pupils of Gaelscoils speak - English patterns superimposed onto Irish, with no understanding of the idiom and patterns of the language. It seems to me that there must be a better way of learning Irish - probably beginning with speaking it well (making an effort to use good Irish) at home.

But then as I say I was reared with the language so I'm not in a position to criticise; and the Gaelscoils seem to consistently get good exam results.

Why not go and see the school and have a chat with the principal about the school ethos?

simu

Gaelscoileanna are by no means perfect - I was raised through Irish too and my Gaelscoil teachers corrected me a few times on things that were actually correct in my dialect! In fact, my siblings and I used to modify our normal Irish accents we'd use with family when we were at school to fit in more! It's funny! They really should have been more aware of dialects imo. And yes, as UB said, you get Gaelscoil kids speaking Irish with English syntax too. It seems that's enough to do well in LC Irish.

As for the standard of teachers, it was pretty good in my school but I don't think there are any national patterns to these things - I'd get in touch with parents of your local Gaelscoil and ask them about their experiences, if I were you, dame.

dame

UB wrote:

the Gaelscoils seem to consistently get good exam results.

That could be because the students are all getting 10% extra due to doing the exams through Irish and also that the children attending Gaelscoils tend to have, for want of a better word, "pushier" parents.

I have been to the school, had a look around and a brief chat with the principle. It's a lovely newly built place, great facilities.

Gaspode

Dame, one of the reasons we chose the gaelscoil apart from the benefits of bilingualism was the fact that it was a much smaller school than the other local schools. I dont know if that is true of your local gaelscoil, but I think it was an advantage that the teachers knew all of the children pretty well.

nesf

dame wrote:

That could be because the students are all getting 10% extra due to doing the exams through Irish and also that the children attending Gaelscoils tend to have, for want of a better word, "pushier" parents.

Eh, it doesn't really benifit the high fliers. Once you start look at "A level students" there is very little benifit to doing your exams through Irish. The benifit mainly would come through having better Irish than the average and doing better in your Irish exams.

luckat

Some Gaelscoileanna are good - academically, linguistically, in the way they treat the kids and the attitudes they teach them - and some are bad. Just like other schools.

I know of two Gaelscoileanna quite close to each other, and a parent who'd sent his kids to one was telling me the other day that the kids never spoke Irish in school and - but for speaking Irish at home - would have come out as total English-speakers. A kid I know in the other school has a beautiful accent and proper Gaeilge iteration, and the kids can be heard chatting in Irish as they go to and from school.

JC 2K3

I can't decide on what would be the best route.

I personally went to an English speaking primary school. Despite being the local public primary it happened to have very good teachers - or perhaps I was just good at picking up languages, but I came out of it with a very good basis in Irish grammar as well as a high level of proficiency in English.

When I went to an Irish secondary I couldn't understand much of what was going on, but I picked it up. Funnily enough, many of the kids from gaelscoils spoke a really crappy hybrid of English and Irish with horribly bad grammar. From being around them I found that as my fluency grew my grammar got worse. I started making a solid effort to correct this in 3rd year though, and now(6th year) my written Irish is very good and my spoken Irish is a little worse, but generally correct. However, some of the people who went to primary gaelscoils still make these little mistakes. Whether they simply don't make an effort I don't know.

Ultimately I don't know if it really matters that much, although perhaps it's worth noting that a significant proportion of the highest achievers in my year went to English speaking primary schools.

However, I doubt that this is down to the language used in their schools. Considering there are only 2 main Gaelscoileanna that kids from my school come from it could be that these are simply not great primary schools. Also, their English has not been adversely affected in the slightest.

Oh and the "extra 10%" thing isn't an extra 10% but 10% of the marks you didn't get if you get below 75% or something. So say you get 34%, you didn't get 66% so they give you an extra 6% and you get a pass(wahey!) or you get 69%, you didn't get 31% so they give you an extra 3% and you get a B3 rather than a C1. It's no advantage really, just bumps grades up to the grade it just fell short of really.

InFront

I picked educate together, I'm not sure why. I went to a multidenominational primary school for a few years, and then a secondary school with a religious ethos that wasn't my religion, and neither caused me the slightest bit of worry or hassle.
I suppose if in doubt, go multi-denominational. That is assuming all other things are equal, obviously. I really think that class size, teacher experience, scholarly attitude, educational resources and sports facilities are far, far more important in choosing a school.
What religion kids learn about for 45 minutes is just that... 45 minutes. What's happening for the rest of the day?

dame

JC 2K3 wrote:

you get a B3 rather than a C1. It's no advantage really, just bumps grades up to the grade it just fell short of really.

Of course it's an advantage. If you get one grade higher in each of your six subjects, then that's an extra 30 points for your CAO choices. That means you're getting offered a place you don't really deserve and others who may have had 20-25 points more than you are missing out. If you don't think it's an advantage then you're fooling yourself. It may not be very fair but if your Irish is up to it and you're expecting around 400-500 points then it's very worth your while sitting even some of your exams through Irish.

jimmycrackcorm

UB wrote:

Although the Gaelscoileanna are a great idea, I also wonder about the standard of the language. As a native speaker, I'm surprised at the way teachers and pupils of Gaelscoils speak - English patterns superimposed onto Irish, with no understanding of the idiom and patterns of the language. It seems to me that there must be a better way of learning Irish - probably beginning with speaking it well (making an effort to use good Irish) at home.

But then as I say I was reared with the language so I'm not in a position to criticise; and the Gaelscoils seem to consistently get good exam results.

Why not go and see the school and have a chat with the principal about the school ethos?

I get the impression that some Gaelscoil teachers are not native speakers themselves but actually studied it at college much the same as getting a teaching degree in history. It's not unusual given the springing up of Gaelscoileanna everywhere. Also there seems to be a focus on a sort of standardized Irish teaching that bears less resemblence to any particular dialect.

[QUOTEC=Crea] I did Gaelscoil for secondary school - not for primary. I found the transition into secondary school extremely difficult especiall in subjects like history and geography which are very wordy. I was quite fluent in Irish on leaving school but didn't have the "blas" that Gaeltacht speakers have and always found it difficult to follow exactly what was said on Nuacht. Transition into college for some subjects was also difficult as I had learned them in Irish and had to translate them in my mind before applying them.
My children will be going to our local school which has a strong Irish focus but teaches the subjects in English. I won't be sending them to a Gaelscoil after my experience. My sister who went to the same school feels the same way as do our school friends. [/QUOTE]


I pity you. My child goes to a primary gaelscoil but I certainly wouldn't have put him into a Secondary school without having built up the basics from the start.

I don't believe that bi-lingualism necessarily detracts from having stong English lanuage skills. Rather that it is dependent on the particular child much in the same way some children are more studious or adapt much better to particular subjects than others.

RainyDay

deisemum wrote:

I know a principal of a Gaelscoil that will not take children unless they have an Irish name.

He'll find himself making out large payouts at the Equality Tribunal if he keeps this up. Every school has to have an enrolement policy available on request, and places are allocated in accordance with the policy.

It is revolting that religious descrimination was enshrined into the 1999 Education Act to allow schools to discriminate based on the religion of their applicants, but no school can discriminate based on names.

simu

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I get the impression that some Gaelscoil teachers are not native speakers themselves but actually studied it at college much the same as getting a teaching degree in history. It's not unusual given the springing up of Gaelscoileanna everywhere. Also there seems to be a focus on a sort of standardized Irish teaching that bears less resemblence to any particular dialect.

This is true.

JC 2K3

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I pity you. My child goes to a primary gaelscoil but I certainly wouldn't have put him into a Secondary school without having built up the basics from the start.

Having to make the transition from an English Primary to an Irish Secondary was one of the most character building and challenging experiences of my life. Out of my year about 25-30 would have come from English primaries and only about 3 left because of the Irish. Unless you have a learning difficulty you'll pick up Irish in 3 months.

dame wrote:

Of course it's an advantage. If you get one grade higher in each of your six subjects, then that's an extra 30 points for your CAO choices. That means you're getting offered a place you don't really deserve and others who may have had 20-25 points more than you are missing out. If you don't think it's an advantage then you're fooling yourself. It may not be very fair but if your Irish is up to it and you're expecting around 400-500 points then it's very worth your while sitting even some of your exams through Irish.

Meh, I'll be getting at least B1s in everything anyway

dame

JC 2K3 wrote:

Meh, I'll be getting at least B1s in everything anyway

Still room for improvement there!

dame

Thanks for all the input folks. After much thought we've decided to stick with the Gaelscoil. It's the nearest (with newest facilities) and we feel she should be able to manage. We'll read plenty of "filthy" English books in the evenings! We'll go to the school soon enough and confirm her place. Thanks again for all the different views. They were all very interesting and useful to us in deciding.

snickerpuss

I went to a Gaelscoil and trust me people who go to Gaelscoils are well able to speak English correctly.
Anyway, my parents spoke no Irish and it never made a difference. I loved it, I came out of the Gaelscoil totally fluent and i'm doing a degree in Irish now.

Go for it. It'll make the leaving easier anyway!

undecided

I have two children. The oldest is in 1st class in a gaelscoil and her Irish is fantastic both written and oral. Her english is also brilliant I would not say that it's below the standard of other english schools. I also have younger child who started nionra (irish playschool) in Sept. He loves it can understand basic Irish conversations and will respond in Irish.

Although I have heard of kids having problems in secondary schoo; because of different teachers and different dialects. I know this can be confusing because I have good Irish but have trouble understanding my daughter who is being taught with a different dialect than mine