Election time

nesf

FF/PD tbh. I just haven't seen a viable alternative government in FG/Lab over the past few years.

ballooba

gandalf wrote:

LOL don't worry I left the Labour party after 1992.

I hope Shatter gets back in, he is a good public representative and intelligent as well. Have met him on several occasions.

Shatter's family were in the same hotel as mine for holidays one year. They seemed like a nice bunch. Carol Shatter's dad was there, I think his name was Friam Danker? He was a really nice man.

Shatter is also a very competent politician and a principled individual i.e. Bloodsports and Family Law.

If Seamus Brennan loses his seat I will be dancing in the streets.

ballooba

nesf wrote:

FF/PD tbh. I just haven't seen a viable alternative government in FG/Lab over the past few years.

Maybe that's because they haven't been in government.

Can you name for me a few of their policies?
They're here btw:
www.finegael.ie
www.labour.ie

InFront

I agree with you there, Seamus Brennan seems like a genuinely nice person, and he is pretty clever, but his popularity does overstate his political capabilities.

Alan Shatter has charisma but also as others have said he has the intelligence and competence of really effective representation that is lacking in Dublin South right now. If he wasn't sitting at cabinet on the other side of the election, I'd be very surprised.

nesf

ballooba wrote:

Maybe that's because they haven't been in government.

Can you name for me a few of their policies?
They're here btw:
www.finegael.ie
www.labour.ie

How about we just agree to disagree? I'm sure that your political opinions are quite different to my own, and probably your political concerns also and that us arguing about it here will just be result in me listening to an anti-FF rant rather than actually hearing anything new and/or constructive.

Bonzodog

I'm British, and this is the first time since I've been living in Ireland that I've had a chance to vote.

I have a deep interest in politics, and in the UK, my family were always slightly right of centre, in a conservative/Liberal Democrat way.

However, I am *really* struggling to understand the Irish political System.

It seems there is no real difference between FF and FG.
FG are just a centre-right party with no real policies that reflect that stance, it seems. In fact i am struggling to find some rock solid policies from either party that they will be able to realistically meet.

The Parties that have taken my Interest so far are:

Sinn Fein, The Greens, and Labour.

Can someone please explain to me just whether the Left/Centre/Right sliderule exists here?

Are the PD's any comparison to the Liberal Democrats in the UK, and do Labour Ireland have any links with Labour UK?

ballooba

nesf wrote:

How about we just agree to disagree?

I would agree to that if you could list for me 5 current Fine Gael or Labour policies.

nesf

ballooba wrote:

I would agree to that if you could list for me 5 current Fine Gael or Labour policies.

Honestly, why would I do that? Any five that I choose to list you'll argue with as being non-representitive or not 'encompassing the scope of the the thrust of the proposed coalition' or something to that effect. You have your opinion, I have mine when it comes to the parties, let's leave it at that and not try and convert each other to the cause.

Individual policies I'll happily debate with you, but party politics in this country is such a tribal thing that I've little interest in 'debating' it.

is_that_so

Bonzodog wrote:

However, I am *really* struggling to understand the Irish political System.

It seems there is no real difference between FF and FG.
FG are just a centre-right party with no real policies that reflect that stance, it seems. In fact i am struggling to find some rock solid policies from either party that they will be able to realistically meet.

The Parties that have taken my Interest so far are:

Sinn Fein, The Greens, and Labour.

Can someone please explain to me just whether the Left/Centre/Right sliderule exists here?

I would say it's something like this.


Left and left-leaning are Labour (like the British Labour party :rolleyes: ), Sinn Fein, Socialist Party, Greens

Centre-Right FF and FG

Right PDs ( Conservatives )

The original FF/FG difference went back to the treaty pro and anti. These days I guess FF are the "republican" party and FG big on law and order.

Beyond that everyone steals everyone else's ideas.

Check out their websites for manifestos and other stuff.

ballooba

nesf wrote:

Honestly, why would I do that? Any five that I choose to list you'll argue with as being non-representitive or not 'encompassing the scope of the the thrust of the proposed coalition' or something to that effect.

I'm only asking you to list them to show that you actually know 5 policies. I'm not going to ask you if you agree with them or not.

Dontico

gandalf wrote:

LOL don't worry I left the Labour party after 1992.

I hope Shatter gets back in, he is a good public representative and intelligent as well. Have met him on several occasions.

alan shatter is suspiciously too articulate for fine gael!

only joking. i find easy to understand other fg politicians but some others dont. fg are not know to be very articulate.

Dontico

Bonzodog wrote:

It seems there is no real difference between FF and FG.
FG are just a centre-right party with no real policies that reflect that stance, it seems. In fact i am struggling to find some rock solid policies from either party that they will be able to realistically meet.

The Parties that have taken my Interest so far are:

Sinn Fein, The Greens, and Labour.

the main differnces between the two are corruption and thier devoution to the eu. also FG believe in stricter laws, which i am in favour of. too many times have i read in the newspaper "rapist gets 6 month suspended sentance." lock'em up and through away the key is what i say.

interested in sinn fein? no, just no.
i had an arguement with an english bloke about the IRA. he was pro-IRA. i hate the IRA. a terrorist is a terrorist. again with my 'lock'em up and through away the key' policy.

Chakar

My vote will be allocated to Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats in that order.FF and the PDs have done an excellent job in the last ten years with record investment in transport, health, justice, education.The Government was also the first government to bring in positive action laws in the Equal Status Act, Disability Act 2005, Employment Equality Act, Equality Act 2004.

The government also have a clear framework for the future and have learnt from their mistakes in terms of managing infrastructural spending with the establishment of the National Development Finance Agency.

The Government have clear vision for a knowledge economy in Ireland in furthering Ireland up the value chain.The Government will be advancing national development while keeping personal taxes at low rates.

That's why I'm going to vote for the present Government.They are doing a great job in my view.

Heinrich

Chakar wrote:

My vote will be allocated to Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats in that order.FF and the PDs have done an excellent job in the last ten years with record investment in transport, health, justice, education.The Government was also the first government to bring in positive action laws in the Equal Status Act, Disability Act 2005, Employment Equality Act, Equality Act 2004.

The government also have a clear framework for the future and have learnt from their mistakes in terms of managing infrastructural spending with the establishment of the National Development Finance Agency.

The Government have clear vision for a knowledge economy in Ireland in furthering Ireland up the value chain.The Government will be advancing national development while keeping personal taxes at low rates.

That's why I'm going to vote for the present Government.They are doing a great job in my view.

Are you for real?

The current shambles that masquerades as a health service is an embarassment to the country. Have you seen the St. Vincents news this evening? Do you know about the trollies? MRSA mean anything?

What we get as answers is bloody stastics and how much the Government are ploughing into this and that but the reality is that nothing works.

Law and Order is a sick joke and Minister Kileen and his contemporaries only compound that joke, if only it were funny!

Let's not go down the education route...

Vote for whomsover you wish but please do not get the idea that you are doing us a favour.

bk

Heinrich wrote:

Are you for real?

Hey, that isn't fair Heinrich. He expressed his opinion and he is quiet entitled to it, just as you are to yours.

I'm frankly feed up listening to anti-FFers complain so much about them and make comments like "democracy isn't working" just because the majority of people decide to vote against FG/Lab. That is democracy and you have to accept the will of the people, even if you think it is wrong.

It isn't very cool and trendy on this forum to declare you are in favour of FF/PD, but the reality is that most people are (going by previous elections and current polls) and I say congratulation to Chakar for standing up and declaring for them and explaining why he is, fair play to him.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'd like to vote other than Fianna Fail but I really just don't wan't Enda Kenny or Pat Rabbitte in Power.

As the British poster pointed out there is v.little difference between FG & FF. A guy I know pointed out Fine Gael are like Fianna Fail without no connections.

I detest Pat Rabbite. When he's cornered he just starts shouting & misquoting other politicians. Enda Kenny just whines all the time. I'd be constantly embarrassed to be Irish every time they appeared on international TV. Unfortunately for Enda I think he makes a great opposition leader.

Fianna Fail are getting overdone here - I don't think any other party would have had the balls to bring in the smoking ban & that's something that will actually have a long term positive effect on our health service.

I lost a lot of respect for MacDowell after his recreational cocaine user comment but usually I find he's pretty intelligent & competant.

I'm going to vote for Fianna Fail, PDs &Greens most likely. Will look into Labour too/ I do quite like them aside from Rabitte.

I really wish Gerry Adams was in another party.-

uberwolf

Chakar wrote:

My vote will be allocated to Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats in that order.FF and the PDs have done an excellent job in the last ten years with record investment in transport, health, justice, education.The Government was also the first government to bring in positive action laws in the Equal Status Act, Disability Act 2005, Employment Equality Act, Equality Act 2004.

The government also have a clear framework for the future and have learnt from their mistakes in terms of managing infrastructural spending with the establishment of the National Development Finance Agency.

The Government have clear vision for a knowledge economy in Ireland in furthering Ireland up the value chain.The Government will be advancing national development while keeping personal taxes at low rates.

That's why I'm going to vote for the present Government.They are doing a great job in my view.

The record investments you cite have come at the tail end of 10 years of inaction.

The principal achievements in transport were those already well through planning phase under previous administrations. Recent plans include works they hadn't the stomach to push through initially (luas connection).

Record investment in health, symbolised in the main by PPARS, and less so by the closing of hospitals, record production of unimplemented reports.

Justice - the continuing overcrowding of prisons, failure to provide Garda numbers as promised, and continuing not to place civilians in administrative roles in the force.

Education - linked to the knowledge economy you reference. I know too many PhD students on €40 a week to accept that anything but platitudes are being provided for the so called fourth level.
As for primary school students still stuck in rat infested prefabs.

Personal taxes at low rates and continuing development - there was a very concise deconstruction of this position in a weekend paper recently. The younger generations are being done over by having to pay for infrastructure, housing and older generations pensions whilst the same older generation are benefiting disproportionately from the low tax environment.


The current government may have plenty of coherent plans, but after 10 years in power we are entitled to expect results, improvements, palpable outcomes. Plans for the future sure, but only against the backdrop of successful implementation of your own plans in the past.

bk

uberwolf wrote:

The record investments you cite have come at the tail end of 10 years of inaction.

The principal achievements in transport were those already well through planning phase under previous administrations. Recent plans include works they hadn't the stomach to push through initially (luas connection).

That is simply untrue, most of the transport plans was developed under the "Platform for Change" document developed and released by the Department of Transport in February 1999, when FF-PD were in power.

Furthermore the current Transport 21 plan was also developed under the current government.

Yes, the initial road and rail projects were running far over budget and over schedule, mainly because of the Irish planning system, bad contracts and bad project management. However most of these problems have now been fixed over the last three years and now all roads projects are coming in on budget and often far ahead of schedule and all of this is happening when more road projects are being built at any other tine in Irish history.

We have seen the massive turn around in the NRA and project management under the current government and credit is due to them for fixing it.

uberwolf wrote:

Record investment in health, symbolised in the main by PPARS, and less so by the closing of hospitals, record production of unimplemented reports.

5 years ago people were all jumping up and down about very long waiting lists, but again the current government fixed it for the most part and now you rarely hear about long waiting lists.

Of course there are now new problems in the health system and the government is pouring massive amounts of money into fixing it and has a pretty good plan to fix it. Yes like everything it can't be fixed over night, it will take a while to sort out, but I believe they are on the right track. (Interestingly I saw a report that shows A&E waiting times are well down on last year, while still being far from acceptable, it does look like it is going in the right direction).

uberwolf wrote:

Justice - the continuing overcrowding of prisons, failure to provide Garda numbers as promised, and continuing not to place civilians in administrative roles in the force.

Haven't they introduced the Garda reserve?
Aren't they building a new super prison in Cork and moving mount joy to a new facility outside Dublin?

Sure gang land crime has spiralled out of control, but I haven't seen any bright ideas from the opposition on how to solve it?

uberwolf wrote:

Education - linked to the knowledge economy you reference. I know too many PhD students on €40 a week to accept that anything but platitudes are being provided for the so called fourth level.
As for primary school students still stuck in rat infested prefabs.

Some 55% of students go onto 3rd level education, the highest ever in Irish history. We have a mostly free education system which is highly regarded.

Yes more can and should be done for primary education.

uberwolf wrote:

Personal taxes at low rates and continuing development - there was a very concise deconstruction of this position in a weekend paper recently. The younger generations are being done over by having to pay for infrastructure, housing and older generations pensions whilst the same older generation are benefiting disproportionately from the low tax environment.

And what, your suggesting we should have a high tax environment :rolleyes:

Interestingly the current government with the Revenue Commissioners and Department of Finance has been doing a great job in cracking down on illegal tax activity (offshore accounts, etc.), another achievement being overlooked.

uberwolf wrote:

The current government may have plenty of coherent plans, but after 10 years in power we are entitled to expect results, improvements, palpable outcomes. Plans for the future sure, but only against the backdrop of successful implementation of your own plans in the past.

You know people often only remember the failures and take the success for granted.

- Smoking Ban
- Plastic bag tax
- Electrical recycling tax
- Massively increased waste recycling (we are way, way ahead of our EU obligations and about 5 years early, on the down side we aren't doing so well with CO2 emissions).

All things which the current Irish government has lead the way on internationally.

- Lowest unemployment rates in Irish history.
- One of the richest economies in the world.
- People immigrating rather then emigrating.
- Loads of new roads projects, all now coming in on time and on schedule.
- Exciting new public rail transport plan.
- New trains and trains every hour to Cork
- Luas, late, but a massive success.
- Port Tunnel, late, but looking to be a big success (traffic noticeably lighter around Fairview/Drumcondra, great for a cyclist like me).
- Low tax economy
- Peace up North (maybe)
- etc.

Now I'm not saying they are perfect, far from it, they have done many things badly, but people should also not forget the things they have done well.

Henry42

I'll be voting for the Greens - being a member of the party, with Labour in second place.

Ardent

bk wrote:

Now I'm not saying they are perfect, far from it, they have done many things badly, but people should also not forget the things they have done well.

Things they have done adequately you mean. A lot of the things you mention above is routine stuff really - let's not get carried way.

The_Minister

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

A guy I know pointed out Fine Gael are like Fianna Fail without no connections.

They have connections. They came out against cafe bars, due to pressure from publicans, straight away, its only their lack of power that has stopped them acting on their connections. In fairness though, all parties have connections. Some from business, some from publicans, some from unions, some from individuals.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I lost a lot of respect for MacDowell after his recreational cocaine user comment but usually I find he's pretty intelligent & competant.

He was right though. Even if you only use occasionally, you do keep drug dealers in business, and contribute to one of the biggest problems in Irish society.

bk

Ardent wrote:

Things they have done adequately you mean. A lot of the things you mention above is routine stuff really - let's not get carried way.

True, but then the reality of government is mostly routine stuff. A good government is a government that can get the routine stuff done right.

BTW Some things weren't routine, the smoking ban for instance, they went up against the publicans (who they are supposed to be very buddy, buddy with) and it could have been very unpopular with the public, but they went ahead anyway. Just as an example.

Oh and another one I forgot was the taxi drivers.

gandalf

bk wrote:

- Massively increased waste recycling (we are way, way ahead of our EU obligations and about 5 years early, on the down side we aren't doing so well with CO2 emissions).

According to Newstalk this morning we are in the top 10 per capita of polluters in the world. "Aren't doing so well" doesn't really express that properly eh, absolute shambles would be far more accurate.

All things which the current Irish government has lead the way on internationally.

- Lowest unemployment rates in Irish history.

Yep lots of builders out there.

- One of the richest economies in the world.

And one of the most fragile based on building and inflated bloated public services. God help the country if the housing market takes a dip. Then the fun begins.

- People immigrating rather then emigrating.

See above

- Loads of new roads projects, all now coming in on time and on schedule.

About bloody time, then again was the Port Tunnel on time and on budget. Also given the fact our CO2 emissions are so bad and traffic, specifically car traffic is the biggest cause of this would it not be more prudent to concentrate on a proper integrated public transport system rather than a powerpoint soundbited one.

- Exciting new public rail transport plan.

It doesn't go far enough and it playing catch up on Europe and is repairing the damage that FF did in the past to the network.

- New trains and trains every hour to Cork

Again investment in Public Transport is long overdue and again all we are doing is playing catch up. It doesn't go far enough.

- Luas, late, but a massive success.

And misplanned by not being joined up. Oh wait they are now at an extra cost to the taxpayer. BTW you forgot to say it was way overbudget as well.

- Port Tunnel, late, but looking to be a big success (traffic noticeably lighter around Fairview/Drumcondra, great for a cyclist like me).

Again it cost a bit more (for bit replace it with a HUGE AMOUNT!). Also as a motorist on the M50 I have noticed an increase in Truck Traffic which is really intelligent given the roadworks on it.

- Low tax economy

Unless you count all the stealth taxes and government and local government charges :rolleyes:

- Peace up North (maybe)

lol thats a bit rich, alot of Governments over the years have been involved in this process. One could argue that Bertie and the boys got the easy end of the stick.

- etc.

Like the Health Service, Bertie Bowl, e-Voting I could go on and on.

Now I'm not saying they are perfect, far from it, they have done many things badly, but people should also not forget the things they have done well.

The reason alot of us are so angry is they were in power when the economy peaked to the best level this country has ever seen, partly due to international factors and partly due to the foundations laid by previous governments. They wasted their time, the health service should have been sorted after 10 years in charge with the resources they have instead its worse than it was 10 years ago (I know I have unfortunately had a good look at the Health Service over those 10 years, My father had 2 heart attacks, the first back in 1995, the second in 1998 and then the stroke that took his life in 2005 and I can tell you from that experience the hospital service has dramatically gone down the drain.).

This current crowd should hang their heads in shame at the waste and inability to do their job but that will never happen.

ghostdancer

Ardent wrote:

As frightening as the bunch of incompetents currently in power?

yes, far worse.

i like the country and the way it's run at the moment. my life is great.

i'd rather stab myself in the balls than have a ****wit like Enda Kenny running the country.

ghostdancer

Heinrich wrote:

Law and Order is a sick joke and Minister Kileen and his contemporaries only compound that joke, if only it were funny!

i assume by "contemporaries", you're referring to the FG politician in the area who did the same, yes?

ballooba

ghostdancer wrote:

i assume by "contemporaries", you're referring to the FG politician in the area who did the same, yes?

Pat Breen accepted his mistake, Tony Killeen didn't. <---That's a full stop btw.

nesf

gandalf wrote:

Again investment in Public Transport is long overdue and again all we are doing is playing catch up. It doesn't go far enough.

In fairness we are playing catch up in a lot of areas simply because of the cut backs by many governments in the past. No matter who we had in Government we would be playing catch up, imho. There are many areas where you can fault the present Government, and you touched on a lot of them, but to say that they are only playing catch up when it comes to the improvements in Public Transport or Health is not really a criticism against them but just a description of the reality of Ireland after the 80s independent of who is in Government etc. Infrastructure doesn't just appear magically.

The problems with the inflated number of public servants is another hangover from the 80s but (and I can't remember exactly) it was a failed attempt to buoy up the economy by the FF government of that time? That is an issue imho, but I'm really dubious over whether any of the present parties would have will to take on the public servants and substantially thin their numbers.

InFront

nesf wrote:

In fairness we are playing catch up in a lot of areas simply because of the cut backs by many governments in the past.

Is that a joke? It takes more than ten years to put the basic reconstructive infrastructure of the health service on place? News to me. Where was all this talk of new consultant contracts in Autumn 2002?

Look at the 1997 GE Election manifestos and Fianna Fail reinventing themselves as the "zero tolerance political party.
FG gave us the CAB Act, the Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act, the Proceeds of Crime Act, now household names almost everyone is familiar with. What did FF give us, zero tolerance? Oh and the wonderful 2 extra guards we got in Dublin.

It's not even slow progress, it's called going backwards.

gandalf

nesf wrote:

The problems with the inflated number of public servants is another hangover from the 80s but (and I can't remember exactly) it was a failed attempt to buoy up the economy by the FF government of that time? That is an issue imho, but I'm really dubious over whether any of the present parties would have will to take on the public servants and substantially thin their numbers.

In the 10 years this current government have been in power how have they tried to get the number of Civil Servants under control given they have had resources that previous governments would have killed for?

uberwolf

bk wrote:

BTW Some things weren't routine, the smoking ban for instance, they went up against the publicans (who they are supposed to be very buddy, buddy with) and it could have been very unpopular with the public, but they went ahead anyway. Just as an example.

Oh and another one I forgot was the taxi drivers.

their true colours were shown by their actions on liberalising the licensing laws.

Re: your low tax question. I don't believe we're a low tax environment. We are losing our carefully honed competitive advantage due to spiraling wage demands - caused in the main by the cost of housing. The low tax environment which encourages developers to scalp my generation has penalised 1,000s like me. In refusing to jeopardise the galway races tent bonanza by taxing profits heavily enough, the burden has been passed to me to pay in VAT on my property, stamp duty on my property and a 35 year mortgage which will see me at sixty still cursing the cosy relationship between Bertie and the builders.

Our upfront PAYE taxes may be low, but the balance of requirements is met more insidiously and with implications that will last longer than this government, be it 5 more months, or 5 more years